Aggression/Skiddishness

I purchased a 4 month old ball about a month and a half ago. On the ride home, Andromeda (Andi for short) was very inquisitive. She sat on top of her hide with her head up, looking around, watching me, etc. Seemed friendly enough. I got her home, where I had set up a larger terrarium and gently transferred her into it with a snake hook.

I let her settle about a week, and went to feed her thawed pre-killed mice, which she rejected. After a few days of attempting pre-killed, I went and bought live feeder mice. She went after it right away, and has been eating an adult mouse once a week.

The past 2 weeks I've been trying to get her used to handling but she likes to snap at me. She has yet to bite, but she open-mouth lunged at my hand and face several times. She will rarely come out of her hide when I'm in the room. I tried to hold her yesterday, and it went okay but when I went to return her to her terrarium she pulled back into a striking position and didn't want to go back in. I sat her inside anyways and she got in a striking position again and stared me down. I can't figure out why she's aggressive, or what to do to tame her. I've held her a few minutes a day the past 2 weeks and I don't seem to be making progress.

I'm worried she may have been mistreated by her previous owner. The "transaction" was very quick...the girl took the money, handed me the terrarium, and got back in her car and left. Didn't want to talk, ask questions, make sure I knew how to take care of her, nothing. She stopped returning my texts as well, when I went to ask what size mice she had been eating and when the last time she ate was.

Here's her terrarium:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...88_67698_n.jpg

75 watt moonglow heat lamp, large heating pad under the hot side of enclosure. The mountain rock is odd shaped and there's space behind it which has turned out to be her favorite hide (where she was when the pic was taken) and then there's the half-log hide she uses sometimes, which has a small heatpad underneath. Have 3 thermometers, one on each end and one in the middle to keep up with temps.

Basking Side: Low 90s
Middle: Low 80s
Cool Side: Mid - Low 70s
Humidity: Don't have anything to measure, but I mist the faux-foliage every few days and her large water bowl helps with humidity as well I'm assuming. She went through a successful shed over night and it was a clean one-piece shed, so.

Anywho, anyone else have any experience dealing with aggressive BPs? I really don't want to get bit lol. :P

Were dealing with an aggressive pastel right now lol. She likes to try and tag me a bit right now but i think shes getting better.. i just try and pick her up without hesitation and or jumpy/twitchy movements. For the most part if she takes off when i try and pick her up i let her, otherwise i pick her up slow with open hands around her body and kinda let her feel like shes free to roam..
Sorry to hear bout the potential abuse though, good luck! :(

My guess is she is stressed from the tank for starters. It looks nice but there are some things that need to be changed or modified:

-Under Tank Heaters (UTH) need to be regulated. This can be done by using a thermostat to regulate the temperature of the pad and will cost you about $25 online. Another option is to use a lamp dimmer switch from Lowes, or Home Depot for about $10. Here are some links to some basic thermostats, and a link explaining the lamp dimmer:

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPR...1529683&sr=1-7

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t-Instructions

One more thing concerning heat pads. Each one needs to be regulated separately to provide a proper temerature gradient.

-Hides. You need 2 identical hides. One for each side of the enclosure. Using 2 identical hides means the snake will feel equally secure in each hide and move between them to thermoregulate. The hides should be dark and snug. Personally, I don't like the half logs because once they get feces or urine on them, they will be a pain to clean. There are plenty of rock type cave hides available or plastic box types (which I use) or, the cheapest alternative is to make your own out of plastic flower pots or plastic bowls, which work great. Here are some links for examples:

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...nd-misc-decor/

http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes/

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...0-Hides-my-way

- I would also suggest covering the two ends and back of the tank to make it feel less open. You can use things like construction paper, contact paper, aquarium scenery, or, I have seen people use dark window tint. It's up to you.

-Thermometers. I can't tell from the photo, what you are using to measure the temps with, but you need a way to measure the temperature of the warm side, which should be taken under the substarate, on the glass, above the UTH. You can use digital thermometers with probes or Temperature guns. Here are some examples:

http://www.reptilebasics.com/thermometers/

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...er-with-probe/

http://www.amazon.com/Chaney-Instrum...754675&sr=8-25

Additionally here are some more threads that may help:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...p-w-pics-*DUW*

The post above is spot on. Get a digital temp/hygro unit from Walmart. $12 well spent. The snakes sounds rightfully stressed out in its current situation. I don't think it is right to toss around accusations either. What's to say the snake wasn't the same way for the previous owner and that's why they got rid of it? Not a lot of people at pet stores or casual owners know how to properly setup and maintain a ball python enclosure as evident by the pictures you posted. From the sounds of everything the snake is just stressed out. Fix some things and be patient. Good luck and it's good you came to the right place for some knowledge! Read read read and you will get things fixed ASAP.

Regards,

B

I'm skeptical that my husbandry is that far off. I successfully raised bearded dragons, which are far more high maintenance than ball pythons, without the fancy digital stuff. Mine were significantly larger than a lot of the adults I've seen. I think those items are more optional than absolutely necessary.

Regarding the heating pads, I put my hand over the substrate that the heat pads are under and I can barely feel any heat rising up from it, I don't think they are adding a substantial amount of heat to the terrarium. I just added them in, because I had them laying around from previous terrariums. I figured they'd help a little when the temp in my room drops (which it will do soon, as I'll be firing up the air conditioner).

Regarding the previous owner, I wasn't necessarily implicating her, just noting it as a possible source of the misbehavior because how hurried and shady the transaction was. The lady pretty much dumped her off on me and scooted. Didn't ask questions, didn't tell me anything about her, and stopped returning texts after the exchange. Doesn't sound shady to you?

I'm just thinking it's more a behavioral issue. If she was so stressed out she wouldn't be feeding so readily, would she? She ate Tuesday, and I just fed her again a few moments ago. She struck and gobbled it up as soon as she saw it.

Snakes don't have behavioral issues like dogs. They are reptiles and while most will accept or become tolerant of handling, there are some animals that stay defensive. Any breeder will tell you that some animals just don't settle down. If it isn't your husbandry and it might be because of the openess, humidity (screen top?), and temps (mid/low 70's is too low for a BP cold side) then the snake might just need more time being handled and allowed to age. You also are handling the snake a lot. Balls should be handled a few times a week. We're just telling you that most the time a snake behaves that way it is because of environmental stress or other stress related issues. Ball pythons aren't the type to just hang out and inspect you either. They hide. It's what they do and it is why they like to feel secure. If they aren't feeling that way then they become or stay defensive. Good luck.

Regards,

B

Young animals tend to be more defensive, now aggressive behavior in young animals tend to be husbandry/stress related unless of course you are not feeding this animal enough.

Things I would do, downsize the enclosure, provide TIGHT hides and by that I mean tight barely fitting all sides touching the animal's body.

I would also limit handling to a very minimum.

Most importantly I would regulate the heat pad what feels barely hot to you is too hot for a BP remember that your internal body temps is 98.6 therefore if the temps was 98 even a 100 it would not feel hot to YOU however it would be to hot for a BP, additionally any heat source can over-heat leading to severe burns and this will happen if left un-controlled.

I filled in the space she was squirming into behind the rock with substrate, so she has no direct access to the heating pad on that side of the terrarium, and removed the small one from under the hide. I'll swing by the pet store tomorrow before class and invest in a smaller hide, and go ahead and get the temperature probes so I can officially rule out temp as being an issue. The store also sells the backgrounds, so I'll pick up those as well and cover the back and sides.

But is a small enclosure really a good thing? When she stretches all the way out she's almost the length of the tank, short maybe 6 or 7 inches.

Here's a pic of her taken earlier today:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5019252_n.jpg

Ball pythons tend to like smaller enclosures. Since they spent most of their time hiding, they like to feel secure. That is much harder to do with a large tank.

I wouldn't change the size of the enclosure just yet. I mean the snake is eating. I would just concentrate on snug hides and getting accurate temperature readings and regulation for starters.

What type of substrate is that?

I forgot to welcome you to BP.net in my earlier post. :welcome:

I don't Think anyone has covered the humidity thing yet. Unless silly me missed it. I'd start spraying at least once a day. They need consistent humidity. Every few days isn't going to keep a tank set up humid enough which could lead to other issues. some balls are temperamental. Most of the time they are extremely docile. You also have to remember that all this is new for her/him. New person new sounds new smells. Is one mouse a week adequately keeping him full? He may be pounding everything because he wasn't fed right but that could also lead to temperament issues. Look at the largest part of the snake. Is a mouse relative to the largest girth on the snake. If not try giving larger prey or another mouse during feeding. Equipment you may feel is optional but look at it this way. It's much better to be safe than sorry. A heat pad can malfunction. It's happened to many many people and the snake is the one who gets hurt. They Dont have the same pain receptors we do so they will severly burn themselves and really not even notice. Then you've got to deal with a snake with thermal burns, possible infection and one hell of a vet bill for a thermostat that cost 20$. Just my .02 on that.

You have successfully raised bearded dragons, but that's a whole other species....you're dealing with a ball python now. I am 100% sure if your heat mat is not connected to a rheostat or thermostat or dimmer, it is most definitely getting too hot. I have a SMALL heat pad from zoomed, and without my dimmer it was exceeding 130* on the glass above the mat. Ball pythons burrow, and move substrate around, and I don't think you should say you "think" it's safe because of the substrate.
Read over this thread, it's of a nice burn on a ball python from an un monitored heat pad.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-me...(graphic)

Secondly, ball pythons do not have behavioral issues. Some take longer to adjust, but what you are describing, and I'm sure almost everyone else will agree, he/she is UNCOMFORTABLE and STRESSED in your setup. Use black Con-tact paper from home depot for 6 bucks, black out the sides and back. With those log hides, and the back being wide open, the poor thing doesn't feel secure, even in it's own hide. What kind of substrate is that? I'm firm on the fact that given you do not have anything covering the top of your tank, and it's a glass tank, that your humidity sucks. Block off most of the top, and mist about 2-3 times a day and that should better your humidity.

I can't stress how badly you need to monitor the heat pad other than touching it with your hand. Get a temp gun ($25.00-35.00), a dimmer ($10.00 at home depot), a thermostat ($50.00-120.00)....SOMETHING before you injure your snake.

As I said in my previous post, I've removed her access to the heatpads until I work out if they are even necessary, and if I do find that they are needed I'll invest in a dimmer. The thermostats are a bit on the pricey side, and I'm a college student so I don't have cash to be slinging all over the place. I also stated that I was going to go and purchase decorative backgrounds to line the back and sides with, as well as a more secure hide.

The substrate is:
http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=3945029

Anyone know where I could get some plexi plates for the lid? I'm going to glue them into the screen lid so you can't see them, but get the same effect.

Well the heat pad is very beneficial for digestion, Home Depot has the dimmers for $10.00, they carry temp guns, but tempguns.com is having a sale on their best model for $35.00, and Home Depot also has plexiglass that you can have cut there for any size you need. At the very least you need the dimmer and temp gun for the heat pad, and as long as you check a few times a day with the temp gun you won't ever need a thermostat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andromeda

Anyone know where I could get some plexi plates for the lid? I'm going to glue them into the screen lid so you can't see them, but get the same effect.

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I just bought some plexiglas from Lowes yesterday. They cut it for free and they had many different sizes to choose from and were all reasonably priced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andromeda

As I said in my previous post, I've removed her access to the heatpads until I work out if they are even necessary, and if I do find that they are needed I'll invest in a dimmer. The thermostats are a bit on the pricey side, and I'm a college student so I don't have cash to be slinging all over the place. I also stated that I was going to go and purchase decorative backgrounds to line the back and sides with, as well as a more secure hide.

The substrate is:
http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=3945029

Anyone know where I could get some plexi plates for the lid? I'm going to glue them into the screen lid so you can't see them, but get the same effect.

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That regulating device is important. You can get a programmable hydrofarm thermostat from amazon for 35.00 I have one that I'm temp testing right now and its pretty consistent.

There are plenty of places for penny pinching when it comes to bps (hides,water bowls, tubs, substrate), the thing keeping your animals safe is not one of the places I'd recommend skipping out on.

You can get a ReptiTemp for under $30 -- not the best thermostat in the world, but it will get the job done, and it is better than a dimmer.

You could use a thermostat on a heat pad, and then use the heat lamp on the opposite side to keep the ambients up. After you get a good thermometer, then you could possibley get a dimmer for the lamp? You can pick a dimmer up at Lowe's or Home Depot for around $10 -- and that would probably work okay for the heat lamp.

I have never used a tempgun, so I can't really say if they are good or bad, but I have heard mixed reviews on them. And with a tempgun you have to constantly physically use it and check the temps. For $12 you can pick up an Accurite thermometer at Walmart and just look at it and see how the temps are. Plus you can monitor you humidity and 2 temperatures. You can put the thermometer on the cool side and monitor your ambient temp and the humidity, and it has a probe that you place directly on the glass floor of the terrarium where the heat pad is located. No guesswork -- you always know what your temps and humidity are.

Hope this helps...knowing your temps is definitely preferred to guessing -- then at least you can rule out those things as the problem if you know they are spot on.

I had the reptitemp thermostat, and I returned it and got the dimmer. I live by my temp gun, which IMO is a necessity. Digital thermometers are good for taking ambient temps, but NOT good for temping your heat pad. I disagree there, if you do not get a thermostat, a tempgun is necessary. Regarding the reptitemp thermostat, that will not keep your snake from frying if it ever shorts or has a surge....If you are looking to save money, like Cinderbird said, don't save money when it comes to the safety of your snake.

I had a dimmer switch on my very first cage about 10 years ago, and as far as I know, if a dimmer fails they most likely stick wide open if they fail. That is what happened with mine anyway.

I wouldn't recommend a ReptiTemp (I use a Herpstat myself). All I was saying is that a ReptiTemp or something similiar would be better than having the heating pad completely unregulated. I suggested the ReptiTemp as the original OP more or less stated that he would not be willing to fork out over $100 on a good thermostat. And since a dimmer and a ReptiTemp both will stay wide open upon fail, I think a thermostat would be better -- I have tried dimmers and they are way too hard to regulate if the temps in your home fluctuate.

And like I said, I am sure tempguns work okay, but I prefer an accurite. I am just curious -- not trying to start an argument -- how do you temp the actual surface of your enclosure where your heat pad is with a tempgun? I'm not talking the top of the substrate, but the actual glass or plastic on the bottom of your enclosure -- since that is what should be temped; the hottest part the snake could come into contact with.

I'm not sure how you figure you can't take the temp of the floor where the heat pad is with an accurite -- you stick the probe right on the floor; the closest point the snake could come into contact with. I was thinking it would be much more difficult to temp that spot with a tempgun.

Like I said, I'm not starting a fight ... just interested in how that works :)

Move the substrate out of the spot I want to temp, and point and shoot....same way you would with the substate on top. I agree I only have one tank, I use tubs for my others and I use a herpstat, which clearly the OP doesn't want to spend that much money. I haven't had any issues with my dimmer holding temps, but I do temp with my gun like 3 times a day and only adjust a fraction of a millimeter if I need to, but I think if he was to go the thermostat route I wouldn't go for the ReptiTemp. Easiest (and cheapest..which he's concerned with) would probably be the dimmer and temp gun, and the safest would be, at minimum, a Johnsons or Ranco. But to answer your question, I temp the same way I do with the substrate or ambient temp, I just have to move the substrate out of the way in a spot and hold it down for a few seconds to read it. I'm seriously considering getting rid of my tank that I worked so hard on just because it's so much more "complicated" than my tubs.

Plexiglas works but I had great success in my tank years with towels. I just folded and placed on top of the screen. Thats something that will work in a pinch for a long while. Btw I live by my temp gun. I have thermos and I still temp gun at least once a day. I got my thermos and temp gun on big apple herp all for under 100.00. It's consistent and I know the snake are safe.

Wow, there's lots of good advice here! And nice picture of your new BP - congrats on rescuing him! :)

Here's 2 other sources worth checking out:

www.rickysreptileenclosures.com and snakebytes.tv on youtube or bhbreptiles.com. Ricky has some good advice on how to set up an enclosure match temp, humidity and security needs that available in a BP's natural environment.

Brian's snakebytes.tv episode from last week (3/16) gave his Top 10 Worst Advice on Keeping Snakes and he discusses handling, aggression, feeding, enclosures, etc. (worth checking out even for veteran snake keepers!)

IMO, a single tub or a rack system is the most effective way of maintaining proper temp gradient, humidity and provides a BP the security they need.

I used to have a tank with lots of cool decorations and a UVB light to show off my pet, but then realized this was more for appearances (BP's like to hide 95% of the time), plus it was almost impossible to maintain proper temps and humidity for any length of time without constant effort and adjustment.

Now I've got a Sterilite tub and use separate Helix thermostats and UTH's with probes located under each identical hide (81F cool-side; 91 warm-side); probes are placed directly under paper toweling for substrate to get the most accurate and consistent temps. Toweling makes regular and complete cleaning very quick and easy and provides consistent belly heat temps since it's always the same thickness. Also have another UTH on the outside of the tub's lid to provide a normal range for ambient air temp; the third Helix probe for this UTH is located in back corner of the cool-side.

Depending on the natural external temperature fluctuations of my home, ambient air temp in the enclosure maintains a range of 77F - 84F without effecting the constant the belly heat temps in each hide. I love the fact that this set up forms it's own closed-system which is completely self-regulating, effortless, and requires no guess work or temp gun checking. There's a digital thermometer/hygrometer on the cool-side to verify ambient air and measure humidity.

To ensure constant correct humidity - made a "humidity box" out of a 4" diameter round food storage container by drilling as many holes in the lid as possible to dissipate water vapor and filled container with coconut bark. To prepare: fill with water, let soak and drain after a couple of minutes, place on warm side of enclosure - maintains 55%-60% humidity for a week at a time. During shed I add another identical 'humidity box' to the enclosure to boost humidity to 65%-70%.

Good luck on getting your enclosure set up just right to provide for your BP's fundamental needs. Once these are met and your BP has acclimated and is on a regular feeding schedule, I'm sure you'll see your BP's true disposition which will most likely be less aggressive/skiddish.

P.S. - Don't let any friendly debate over technical issues or varying opinions dissuade you from looking for the answers that will work for your particular situation - the more you know, the better a keeper you will be ;). And just remember, when providing for a BP with a normal life span of 20+ years, it's not about what we think is cool looking, is too 'cheap' a solution or somehow unnecessarily expensive ... it's about meeting your snake's fundamental needs all of the time, every time.

The half-log hides, as you've already heard doesn't make the snake feel 'comfortable', but another possible problem with them is, if it is one of the 'real' wood log hides, being that is basically 'dead' plant matter, and since a ball python's enclosure requires a decent amount of humidity, over a period of time it could begin to get mold, a plastic 'hide' is the way to go, in terms of being easy to clean/disinfect, even though they may not be as appealing to the eye as the wood hides.