First eggs of the season for me. :)

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1521/img0072p.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6190/img0073pf.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4294/img0074sz.jpg

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http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1921/img0076z.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7061/img0079pe.jpg


She's still not quite finished so I won't have a final egg count until tomorrow because I'm going to leave her alone to finish and rest. I intend to allow her to maternally incubate and I'll try to post regularly here with her progress. :)

She's het for burgundy according to her previous owner's receipt. I paired her with a mojave and a pastel though I only saw locks with the mojave. I'm not terribly familiar with the burgundy trait but I'm looking forward to trying to prove her out in the future.

:banana:Congrats:banana: Please do keep us posted :)

Congrats!!!! I look forward to seeing your documented progress on these! Do you put another tub over the mom and eggs? Or do you just leave them the way they are? And what % humidity in the tub do you need to keep?

I really would like to leave a mom on her eggs, but I'm not sure about the conditions...If the hot spot is 91-92, will that be too warm for the eggs. I'm glad you do maternal incubation and show how much hearsay is out there that just isn't the case. :gj:

I don't do anything different. She's in a 41qt tub with cypress bedding. I'll put a hygrometer in there today to get an idea of where the humidity is at but unless it's reading below 60%, I won't be doing anything to adjust it.

Thanks for the well wishing, guys. :)

Best of luck.. Please keep us posted on your progress.:gj:

Well, I checked the hygrometer and it was reading 55%. I wasn't happy with that so I've added more cypress in the tub along with some moistened sphagnum moss to boost the levels just a bit. Oh and while I was doing that I was able to see that she has 8 eggs in her clutch. :) She definitely didn't want me meddling in her tub, though, so I didn't linger to take any new pics tonight. lol I'll wait a few days and see about getting some candling pics if she'll agree to it.

When will you start to offer food? And how big of rat?

At the moment all I have available are a handful of mice. My supplier comes through on Wednesdays so I may get an extra small rat to start her out on then. She usually eats medium and large rats but I'll probably keep offering her on smalls while she's on eggs.

I pulled Freckles out of her coil just long enough to candle each of the eggs tonight. All eight are definitely fertile with strong veins. I tried to get a shot of candling the eggs but between trying to figure out how to set up my new camera to get a clear shot and trying to avoid provoking a bite from an irritated mother, it just wasn't happening. I did get a pic of her with all of her eggs, though.

Here she is on Day 5.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1968/img0225sc.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I pulled Freckles out of her coil just long enough to candle each of the eggs tonight. All eight are definitely fertile with strong veins. I tried to get a shot of candling the eggs but between trying to figure out how to set up my new camera to get a clear shot and trying to avoid provoking a bite from an irritated mother, it just wasn't happening. I did get a pic of her with all of her eggs, though.

Here she is on Day 5.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1968/img0225sc.jpg

---

very cool :) glad to see you going the maternal route again this season, I read your last seasons maternal incubation thread awhile ago and hope you have great luck with this clutch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

That's cool! I sure want to try this! Good luck on it, and keep collecting and sharing the data! :gj:

Best of luck! Hope you get se nice little ones.

Good luck with this! I can't wait to see how it turns out, I'm interested in trying maternal incubation when I start breeding in a couple years :)

Congrats!

I added more cypress and sphagnum moss to Freckle's tub the other night because the humidity was at 50% and I wanted to bring it up a little. It bumped the humidity up more than I anticipated to 95% and I really wish it would come down a bit. The eggs and mom all seem fine and the substrate isn't wet, but I'd rather the humidity levels be between 60 and 80 so that mom has more control and conditions don't become damp. I'll just keep an eye on things and remove bedding/moss if need be.

I did offer food today (fresh killed small rat) and she showed some interest but then backed away and hid her head. I'll give her a few more days and try again.

Very nice Quiet Tempest! That's my next goal with breeding is to do a clutch the maternal route. Lovely!

To the OP (or anyone else who's tried both ways of incubation),

do you find it easier to allow maternal incubation? Just curious, I'm not looking for the most convenient way to breed, I'd rather do what's best for the clutch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kymberli

To the OP (or anyone else who's tried both ways of incubation),

do you find it easier to allow maternal incubation? Just curious, I'm not looking for the most convenient way to breed, I'd rather do what's best for the clutch.

---

I've incubated jungle carpet eggs artificially but every ball python clutch I've had has been left with the mothers. I like the ease of maternal incubation and feel that the eggs have a better chance of survival with their mother rather than in an incubator. I have lost eggs in an incubator but have yet to lose any that remain with their mother. I'm hesitant to use incubators with pythons unless it's absolutely necessary. I read a study that concluded that artificially incubated eggs are more likely to suffer yolk dessication (solidified yolk is left in the egg at hatching) whereas maternally incubated eggs lose less water during the incubation period and tend to result in larger, more active neonates at hatching. The study definitely bolsters my opinion of maternal incubation.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/w...their-eggs.pdf


It's entirely up to the keeper what method to use once you've got eggs, but for me this is the better choice. ;)

I just read this whole study and I'm quite interested. I was taught that maternal inc was more stressful on the mother and therefor shouldn't be risked. Although I am seriously giving a thought of taking a go at it. I was origanally thinking if doing 1-2 clutches like this but maybe I'll do more.
Quiet tempest: I have read from you that mothers eat while brooding. What's the method you use to safely get them to eat without disturbance of the eggs? Do you find that they eat regularly? Beyond that you keep the eggs the same with a bit more humidity in the rack correct?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

I just read this whole study and I'm quite interested. I was taught that maternal inc was more stressful on the mother and therefor shouldn't be risked. Although I am seriously giving a thought of taking a go at it. I was origanally thinking if doing 1-2 clutches like this but maybe I'll do more.
Quiet tempest: I have read from you that mothers eat while brooding. What's the method you use to safely get them to eat without disturbance of the eggs? Do you find that they eat regularly? Beyond that you keep the eggs the same with a bit more humidity in the rack correct?

---

I don't ordinarily have to make any changes to to tubs. I did add more cypress and moistened sphagnum moss with this one just because the humidity was in the 50-55% range and I wanted it up at least another 10-20%. It jumped up to 95% after adding the extra substrate and moss but seems to have leveled off at 85% now.

As for feeding, I ordinarily just place a fresh killed rat in the tub near the female. If she's hungry, she'll uncoil either partially or entirely and go after it. The eggs are usually stuck together so even if she strikes from her coil, the eggs are still safe in their pile. Once she's finished eating, she'll wrap around her clutch again. I did offer her a rat a few days ago but she want it. I'll offer her food again next week and see if she's more interested then. ;)

Awesome thanks tempest! I'll give maternal brooding a try this year.
Thanks!

Very cool stuff. Do you find that there is a temperature difference between eggs at the top of the clutch versus the eggs that are in more direct contact with the belly heat? Do you adjust belly temperatures at all for the brooding process, or just leave everything as is? Thanks for constantly updating us on your maternally incubated clutches!

Cheers,
-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

Very cool stuff. Do you find that there is a temperature difference between eggs at the top of the clutch versus the eggs that are in more direct contact with the belly heat? Do you adjust belly temperatures at all for the brooding process, or just leave everything as is? Thanks for constantly updating us on your maternally incubated clutches!

Cheers,
-Matt

---

To be honest, I haven't stuck a probe into the pile to see if there is a difference in temps according to egg position. From what I've seen with this and past clutches, when the female coils around the eggs, they're usually gripped by mom and held slightly above the floor so they're not always in direct contact with the substrate and belly heat. I wouldn't think there would be much difference because of that but now I'm curious and may have to find a spare thermometer probe and see.

This particular female is not as lax with my curiosities as my other girls have been or I would have gotten some candling pics up by now. lol I'm taking things slow with her so she isn't hissing and threatening to strike every time I open her tub. I will get some candling shots up in the near future and see about getting a probe in there to test temperatures at the top and bottom of the pile while the mom is brooding as well.

Oops. Meant to answer your other question as well. I haven't changed the thermostat settings on my rack at all. I leave everything as is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I've incubated jungle carpet eggs artificially but every ball python clutch I've had has been left with the mothers. I like the ease of maternal incubation and feel that the eggs have a better chance of survival with their mother rather than in an incubator. I have lost eggs in an incubator but have yet to lose any that remain with their mother. I'm hesitant to use incubators with pythons unless it's absolutely necessary. I read a study that concluded that artificially incubated eggs are more likely to suffer yolk dessication (solidified yolk is left in the egg at hatching) whereas maternally incubated eggs lose less water during the incubation period and tend to result in larger, more active neonates at hatching. The study definitely bolsters my opinion of maternal incubation.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/w...their-eggs.pdf


It's entirely up to the keeper what method to use once you've got eggs, but for me this is the better choice. ;)

---

They hardly provided perfect incubation conditions though did they :rolleyes:

"The clutches left without maternal attendance were placed in boxes (50 × 50 × 20 cm)
filled with wood shavings. The eggs were placed in the middle of each box, close to the
surface, and were covered by a thin layer of shavings. Similar artificial incubators are used at
TOGANIM. However, the room we used was large and well ventilated, while local farmers
incubate the eggs in small and closed rooms. Despite the fact that the boxes we used were
watered once a week to keep the uppermost shavings damp, the humidity (not measured)
may have fallen below 100% at times."

What is your target humidity for a tub with mama and eggs in it? What humidity levels do you maintain in oyher snakes' tubs? It seems from your posts thst you've practiced maternal incubation before. Have you had any problems with her harming the hatchlings once they've hatched? And do you remove any slugs you see?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by poundhound2

What is your target humidity for a tub with mama and eggs in it? What humidity levels do you maintain in oyher snakes' tubs? It seems from your posts thst you've practiced maternal incubation before. Have you had any problems with her harming the hatchlings once they've hatched? And do you remove any slugs you see?

---

I try to keep the humidity no less than 60% in any of my tubs. For brooding females, I like the humidity to be between 60 and 80%.

This is my third year breeding balls and I've maternally incubated every clutch - 1 clutch my first year, 3 clutches my second year, and I'm anticipating 5 clutches for this year. I've not had any slugs yet, but if I saw any in a pile I would remove them (if the mother didn't push them out, herself).

When the eggs start pipping, the female doesn't do anything to harm them that I've seen. She just uncoils and the babies wander off after leaving their eggs. Once all the babies have left the nest, she leaves as well. I have a few pictures of some of my females checking out new hatchlings.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9868/cimg3742.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3419/cimg3763.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8999/cimg5827.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5073/cimg5841.jpg


I have two other girls who are both going into a shed cycle simultaneously. I'm hoping this means I'll have two more clutches on the ground in the nearish future.

Thanks for answering my questions. Good luck with your babies :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishboyUK

They hardly provided perfect incubation conditions though did they :rolleyes:

"The clutches left without maternal attendance were placed in boxes (50 × 50 × 20 cm)
filled with wood shavings. The eggs were placed in the middle of each box, close to the
surface, and were covered by a thin layer of shavings. Similar artificial incubators are used at
TOGANIM. However, the room we used was large and well ventilated, while local farmers
incubate the eggs in small and closed rooms. Despite the fact that the boxes we used were
watered once a week to keep the uppermost shavings damp, the humidity (not measured)
may have fallen below 100% at times."

---

It's my understanding that the artificial incubation methods used were similar to others used there.

"The clutches left without maternal attendance were placed in boxes (50 × 50 × 20 cm)
filled with wood shavings. The eggs were placed in the middle of each box, close to the
surface, and were covered by a thin layer of shavings. Similar artificial incubators are used at
TOGANIM. However, the room we used was large and well ventilated, while local farmers
incubate the eggs in small and closed rooms. Despite the fact that the boxes we used were
watered once a week to keep the uppermost shavings damp, the humidity (not measured)
may have fallen below 100% at times. The high ambient temperatures in Lomé were buffered
in the incubators in a similar way as occurs in natural nests inside the burrows of tortoises
(see below). The clutches were inspected several times a week and any eggs affected by
mould were removed. Eggs that died during development were dissected, and we recorded
the body mass and body length of the embryo and the residual egg mass."

While these methods differ a bit from what many use in artificial incubators here and now, I would say this African method was fairly efficient for the artificially incubated clutches.

The use of substrates that are better suited for holding humidity (that don't have to be watered weekly) probably do increase the odds of success in clutches artificially incubated here. Even with a better substrate, I'd still wager that the benefits of maternal incubation continue to outweigh those of artificial but I'm biased. ;) I'd like to see a newer study carried out here in the US to compare maternally and artificially incubated clutches but I don't know of anyone who has enough gravid balls and willingness to do a proper study.

I got a few new pics of Freckles and her clutch. The uppermost egg has wrinkled a bit, most likely because it often isn't completely covered by her coils. She usually just rests her head on this egg so doesn't have the same benefits of its siblings beneath. I'm sure it will be fine regardless, but it's not as pretty as the rest. :rolleyes:

Day 19

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http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/407/img0359lc.jpg



Freckles isn't hissing and threatening to strike every time I check in on her now which is the reason why I was finally able to get some new pics of her eggs. ;) The quality isn't great and I'm still figuring out how best to capture candling pics with this new camera. Hopefully I'll have it figured out before the next clutch drops.

The photo quality is lousy, I know, but I can see my babies to be fluttering around in there now.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/1849/img0407r.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2313/img0408z.jpg

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4135/img0415dz.jpg



I got a video clip of one of the eggs being candled as well. There would have been more but the rest of them came out way too dark to make anything out.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1294/v96.mp4

I uploaded the video to youtube so it's easier to access. The other one was giving me trouble.


http://youtu.be/SDxh8NHutqs

this is awesome i am very interested in trying this especially if it means healthier stronger hatchlings cant wait till 2011/2012 season im gonna be glued to this thread for awhile thanks!

I wouldn't say that maternally incubating guarantees bigger and healthier hatchlings especially with newer methods of artificial incubation that more closely simulate the conditions that a brooding mother provides. The study is a bit dated, after all, and I've seen some whopper babies hatching in incubators. I'm most comfortable with maternal incubation, though. I haven't lost a maternally incubated egg yet and I feel it's because a brooding mom knows how to care for her eggs a thousand times better than I ever could. All I need to understand is how to care for her. She does her job, I do mine, and we end up with healthy hatchlings in about 60 days. :)

Ok here is a silly question. With mom incubating the eggs do you notice that the hatchlings eat better or have less reaction to stress? They are being moved (even just a little as she coils and uncoils around them). What is your percentage of male vs female? It would be interesting to do a study of one year material incubation the next artificial incubation. I don't know how you would test the stress levels of the babies but it would be a cool experiment :D Thanks for keeping us updated. I look forward to more photos.

What kind of flashlight do you use to candle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaangela

Ok here is a silly question. With mom incubating the eggs do you notice that the hatchlings eat better or have less reaction to stress? They are being moved (even just a little as she coils and uncoils around them). What is your percentage of male vs female? It would be interesting to do a study of one year material incubation the next artificial incubation. I don't know how you would test the stress levels of the babies but it would be a cool experiment :D Thanks for keeping us updated. I look forward to more photos.

What kind of flashlight do you use to candle?

---

Maternal incubation is the only method I've ever used with balls so I don't really have anything to compare it to. Last year I had three females on eggs. There was a 4-egg clutch, a 5-egg clutch, and then another 4-egg clutch from those girls. The first 4-egg clutch gave me 3 males and 1 female, the 5-egg clutch gave me 4 females and 1 male and the last 4-egg clutch gave me 2 males and 2 females. The first two clutches started eating shortly after their first shed but the last clutch took nearly 2 weeks of persuasion before the babies started eating on their own.

For the most part, the eggs don't move much when the mom leaves the nest or adjusts her coils because they adhere together shortly after being laid. That's not always the case, though. Last year one of my clutches was "snowflaked" and didn't stick together so each time the mom moved, they'd be pushed around and one rolled out of the nest twice. They all hatched without any trouble but that rollaway egg had me anxious. I was candling it several times a day just to be sure it was still flitting around in there normally.

The flashlight I was using is some little cheap 9-bulb LED light that came from an auto parts store, I think. The logo on it reads: PT Performance Tool.

This looks like it - http://www.amazon.com/Wilmar-9-LED-P.../dp/B000N35JFA

Would you be willing to keep a closer eye on the temps through out the incubation of another clutch?

I know things in nature aren't as set in stone the way we try to get them but I think that more info should be put out there on the maternal vs incubating.

The avg temps for incubating has been set by many and seems to work but I am more interested in the maternal side.

What kind of temp fluctuations in the room around the eggs ect....

Just one of those things to make me wonder how set in stone some things should be other then "this is what works" do it this way.

I'm expecting my second clutch sometime in the next week or so and I'll see about getting a thermometer probe placed in the egg pile once that female is finished laying. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIL9e...layer_embedded

This was taken yesterday. Sorry it's so short. My 6 year old apparently filled the camera with her version of video blogs and I couldn't bring myself to delete them without getting them over to the comp first. lol I'm starting to see the patterns in there now that we're over the halfway hump. :)

Oh this is so exciting. A much belated congrats on the clutch. I'll be following this thread and will be waiting for updates! And yay for them moving around! :P

Thanks! :)


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http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/8667/img0534kj.jpg

Just updating...


Day 43

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http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/3707/img5380p.jpg

The uppermost egg had been sitting on top of the pile for a while. I moved it down so it could sit next to its sibling eggs and share the same benefits of being completely covered by mom's coils. It had been getting rather wrinkly and oddly shaped sitting on the top and acting as a chin rest for mom. I moved the egg about a week ago and it looks like it has filled out really well. It's still dented on one side but it's very pliable and I believe that the baby inside is fine. All eight of the eggs look like they're starting to dimple a bit and they all feel softer now. I think these guys have another two weeks or so before I can expect some pipping. :)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2020/img5435m.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9525/img5441nr.jpg


Yesterday was Day 46. Not much longer. :)


video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Z7Om-1crM

She finally decided she was hungry. Sixth try is the charm, I guess. :rolleyes: She ordinarily gets fed medium-large sized rats so I gave her a small. Hopefully the other girls don't take so long to get with the program.


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http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5377/img5500iq.jpg

I believe today makes Day 50

I've noticed the temp has gone up by a degree or two and I'm wondering if that has to do with the eggs getting ready to pip or if there is some other cause behind it? Up until this point, the temps in her tub have read 86-89 when I've checked in on her and the eggs. This morning, it's at 90.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/6822/img5519lf.jpg

Yes yes tempest!
They are coming. My understanding of this is: The eggs start giving off heat right before pipping. That's why the recommended temp for hatching is 88-90. If you Inc at 92 at the end babies can die of overheat. Btw, that's not something you have to worry about Inc maternally. It sounds like the little ones are going to start poking out soon though! I look forward to pictures. 

Eggs are looking good! I can't wait to see pics of them pipping and hatching! My eggs are on day 32, so this gives me something to watch for while I wait for mine. :D

http://imageshack.us/m/706/6166/img5568w.jpg
Day 54


Her eggs are looking more and more like squished marshmallows. lol I wish they would hurry up and hatch!

I got a new video clip earlier tonight and I think the baby is laying belly up on the right side of the egg. You can see the pulsing of his/her umbilicus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eDCo-aPIcI

I wish these guys would hurry up and come out so I can see them all. The eggs have been sweating a bit and aren't adhered to one another so much anymore. Any day now. I need to find something to occupy my time so I stop irritating their mother three or four times a day. :rolleyes: :reading:

how nerve wracking! i love this thread :)