BumbleBee Wobble

My bumbleBee has slight wobble it never affected him much with the exception of feeding time but last night I notice he was having a panic attack or something he was doing the stevie wonder his head was going left to right no stop for about 15 mins after I first saw him so who knows how long it truly lasted anyways he seems perfectly fine today. should I be worried or is this just something I have to deal with do to the wobble of the spider gene? (he's my baby :tears: )

That is something that will come and go because of the spider gene.

It's what you get with a snake that carries the spider trait.

My guy does loops with his head when he's excited. I got him second hand so I don't know if he did it when he was younger, but he's about 4 years old maybe older. And getting a little fat. ;)

Thats just wat u gotta learn to deal with when u have spiders or any form of spiders i wonder if u mix enough stuff in if it will hide the wobble for example killer bees or Killer Spinner maybe those will help control the wobble idk just a thought

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Originally Posted by ahunt037

Thats just wat u gotta learn to deal with when u have spiders or any form of spiders i wonder if u mix enough stuff in if it will hide the wobble for example killer bees or Killer Spinner maybe those will help control the wobble idk just a thought

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The only way to get rid of it is for breeders to be more responsible, and not breed snakes with inheritable disorders or deformities.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

The only way to get rid of it is for breeders to be more responsible, and not breed snakes with inheritable disorders or deformities.

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I am making a purchase on a Wobbley Spider. I heard that putting a climbing stick in its habitat could be a form of physical therepy and may decrease its wobble overtime. i am going to do an experiment and see how she does :)

Thanks for the posts guys he's doing much better today I guess I just have to get used to it. And @ pamby let me know how that experiment works out.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

The only way to get rid of it is for breeders to be more responsible, and not breed snakes with inheritable disorders or deformities.

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So spiders should no longer be bred? :O :confused:

All spiders wobble/spin to a degree in some case it is hardly noticeable in some case they are train wrecks.

It cannot be bred out.

The things is with spider wobble is that a slight wobbler can throw a train wreck and vice-versa, wobbling can also be worse with years or get better with years.

So again what are the suggestions, stop breeding spiders and label those who do irresponsible? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by TheBeastMaster86

My bumbleBee has slight wobble it never affected him much with the exception of feeding time but last night I notice he was having a panic attack or something he was doing the stevie wonder his head was going left to right no stop for about 15 mins after I first saw him so who knows how long it truly lasted anyways he seems perfectly fine today. should I be worried or is this just something I have to deal with do to the wobble of the spider gene? (he's my baby :tears: )

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I'm glad you asked this-I'm a fairly new snake owner and mine does the same thing. Now I know too :)

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

The only way to get rid of it is for breeders to be more responsible, and not breed snakes with inheritable disorders or deformities.

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Every morph on the market has an inheritable deformity, that's what makes them different from normals..

So if you dislike deformed Ball pythons don't own or breed morphs..plan and simple

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So spiders should no longer be bred? :O :confused:

All spiders wobble/spin to a degree in some case it is hardly noticeable in some case they are train wrecks.

It cannot be bred out.

The things is with spider wobble is that a slight wobbler can throw a train wreck and vice-versa, wobbling can also be worse with years or get better with years.

So again what are the suggestions, stop breeding spiders and label those who do irresponsible? :rolleyes:

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Thanks for your reply, but please don't twist my words. Snakes (or any animal) that are known carriers of inheritable deformities should not be bred for the purpose of selling.

With the right amount of hard work, and forethought into breeding efforts, inheritable deformities can be bred out.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Every morph on the market has an inheritable deformity, that's what makes them different from normals..

So if you dislike deformed Ball pythons don't own or breed morphs..plan and simple

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Thanks for your response, but you're misinterpreting my statement.
It's fairly obvious there is a difference between mutations that are aesthetic, and those which are nervous disorders (wobble) or physical deformities (duckbill, small eyes, missing eyes, kinks).

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

With the right amount of hard work, and forethought into breeding efforts, inheritable deformities can be bred out.

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Let's see this thread is about wobble/spinning.

Wobble in Spiders cannot be bred out so what is the responsible thing to do, stop breeding them?

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Thanks for your response, but you're misinterpreting my statement.
It's fairly obvious there is a difference between mutations that are aesthetic, and those which are nervous disorders (wobble) or physical deformities (duckbill, small eyes, missing eyes, kinks).

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I didn't misinterpret, and not there is no difference it is a genetic deformity that causes the animal to not physically present the same physical appearance as the atypical member of the species..

The only difference is that people choose what deformity they choose to buy and which they choose disregard..

I wish the Spiders didn't have the wobble of any kind (minor or extreme). With that said I love the Spider morph it would be a shame if no one breed them anymore :tears:

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Originally Posted by DellaF

I wish the Spiders didn't have the wobble of any kind (minor or extreme). With that said I love the Spider morph it would be a shame if no one breed them anymore :tears:

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It is an interesting morph. I've seen some awesome bees in particular! :)
Wouldn't it be great if the better breeders worked to eradicate the wobble?

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

It is an interesting morph. I've seen some awesome bees in particular! :)
Wouldn't it be great if the better breeders worked to eradicate the wobble?

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You can't eradicate the wobble...spiders wobble

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Wouldn't it be great if the better breeders worked to eradicate the wobble?

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You still have missed all the points regarding wobble it does not matter if you are responsible or a better breeder it CANNOT be bred out.

At least do some research on the subject :rolleyes:

You state that the wobble can't be bred out. Can you point us toward your sources to back that up?

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

It is an interesting morph. I've seen some awesome bees in particular! :)
Wouldn't it be great if the better breeders worked to eradicate the wobble?

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The problem with this theory, while a good theory, runs on the assumption that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are NOT linked.

We have come to assume that the wobble and the spider gene ARE linked. If you don't have the spider gene, you don't have the wobble. If you do have the spider gene, you have the wobble. Thats the facts as we know them right now. I remember hearing on reptile radio i believe it was, that jaguar carpets can have the same problem. They think it may be linked to the reduced melanin production in the body. Melanin or something related to it does some important connecting stuff in the brain, and animals that have less body pigmentation also have less of the "brain stuff." This was just a super interesting theory that I'd heard.

Its not like say... Hip dysplasia in dogs where you can breed animals with good hips together and theoretically get more animals with good hips. ALL SPIDERS WOBBLE, the single original animal wobbles, so do all the offspring.

Search "spider wobble", that should give you a few days worth of reading...

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Let's see this thread is about wobble/spinning.

Wobble in Spiders cannot be bred out so what is the responsible thing to do, stop breeding them?

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No, dont stop breeding them. Stop buying them. Breeding is driven by consumption.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

The problem with this theory, while a good theory, runs on the assumption that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are NOT linked.

We have come to assume that the wobble and the spider gene ARE linked. If you don't have the spider gene, you don't have the wobble. If you do have the spider gene, you have the wobble. Thats the facts as we know them right now. I remember hearing on reptile radio i believe it was, that jaguar carpets can have the same problem. They think it may be linked to the reduced melanin production in the body. Melanin or something related to it does some important connecting stuff in the brain, and animals that have less body pigmentation also have less of the "brain stuff." This was just a super interesting theory that I'd heard.

Its not like say... Hip dysplasia in dogs where you can breed animals with good hips together and theoretically get more animals with good hips. ALL SPIDERS WOBBLE, the single original animal wobbles, so do all the offspring.

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Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it. :)
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's proven impossible in the case of spiders. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool. As consumers, we should support the efforts of those who do. Who wants to perpetuate producing animals with mental retardation? I don't.

Jaguar carpets do wobble, also enigma leopard geckos have wobble or nervous disorders.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it. :)
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's impossible. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool.

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You don't get it... enough breedings with spiders have been done that we can conclude that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate. Unless maybe you can do some stem cell research in your basement, you will not be able to separate it.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Thank you for your intelligent post on this matter, I greatly appreciate it. :)
The way I see it, linked genes certainly are more difficult to separate. However, I don't think it's impossible. As breeders, if we like the aesthetics that the spider gene provides, we should concentrate our efforts to improve the gene pool.

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No problem :)

Let me add some more personal anecdotal info I've got. Since i started owning ball pythons , I've owned three spiders, all female, two related. With the exception of one girl that needed some force feeding to get started, they are my best eating, fastest growing, most tolerant and docile snakes. Three animals surely insn't enough to go all statistician on you, but multiple times in my relativily short career owning these guys, this has happened. Even the girl that needed the force feeding eventually went on to become a MONSTER feeder.

One can argue that animals that eat, grow and thrive at the same or even better (i can show you a graph I made laying out all the growth rates of a set of ball pythons I'd owned a few years ago) than their normal colored counterparts aren't really in need of improvement.

I have a hard time believing that separating the gene that causes wobble would be impossible. But I think where the problem lies as Deborah kinda said, there is no way to tell which animals will wobble and when in their life they will. So you may be able to separate the wobble gene, but you would need advanced research to tell you first if it is separable, and second which ones don't have it. I'm not saying it's possible or impossible but it would certainly take more than simple selective breeding to separate it. And I'm pretty sure corporate lab is going to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into researching spider ball python genetics. Until one of us hits the lotto I think we may just have to assume that if you get a spider you get wobble.

Also, most breeders aren't breeding spider to spider since there is no super spider that we are aware of. Therefore, the spider gene is probably one of the most "out-bred" genes when it comes to morphs that have been around as long as the spider has been around.

In addition, many spiders (I hesitate saying most) don't have a significant wobble. They will slightly tilt their head or show more signs of wobble when they get excited, during feeding, etc. They seem to grow well, breed well and thrive.

Ok, here's another way to look at it (adding on to what others have said) what if the wobble was something like a tail wag, something more, fun looking. Would it be acceptable then?

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Ok, here's another way to look at it (adding on to what others have said) what if the wobble was something like a tail wag, something more, fun looking. Would it be acceptable then?

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A wagging tail is a voluntary action (happy dog wags its tail, unhappy dog has stiff tail, scared dog as a lowered tail). For dogs, the tail is an actually something that will indicate mood.

The wobble/head tilt/corkscrew/whatever isn't seen (as far as I know) as something that the animal does because it wants to and has little to no bearing on the "mood" of the snake, just that it seems to happen more frequently when the animal is put into a high stress environment (shipping, feeding, etc).

I would believe this is why it is seen as a defect in an animal.

Ok, so if the first Spider ball python was produced in 1999, after 12 years of breeding, outcrossing and breeding back, I would think if it were possible to breed out it would have been done by now. Even going with it taking three years for females to mature, the original breeders would be on their third generation of snakes, and they still have the wobble. It is also not only spider's who wobble, but any snake who carries a spider gene.

So if there is a way to separate the wobble, you'd certainly think blending it with two or three or in some cases four other genes would do the trick, but it doesn't. To me, a four or more gene combination animal that contains spider and still wobbles proves it cannot be bred out.

Also, if I am not mistaken, even newly imported Spiders wobble, so how does that fit in with your breed-it-out theory ?

Gale