What's wrong with these eggs?

Sorry, but this is my first time breeding, so I'm a newbie.

We set up the egg tub using the substrateless method. Now, they have been in the incubator for 8 days. The two best looking eggs candle with good veins. The bottom left egg shows veins, but looks like its rotting. the bottom right shows veins, but looks rotten, too.

The top right may have been bad from the get-go, but I don't know...

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...s_eggs_017.jpg


I haven't found much info on the air bubble in eggs. When we took the female off the eggs, a couple of them rolled in the snake tub. We're not sure what the original top direction of a couple of the eggs was. Can that kill the egg?

We're about 10 days from another clutch. I don't want problems if I can prevent them. Any suggestions and help are definitely welcome and appreciated.

what temps and humidity are you getting in the egg box and have they rolled since they got in the egg box??

I've never done ball python eggs, but the bottom left one especially looks like its getting wet (to my untrained eye), but I don't even see any condensation on the tub wall, is there any on the ceiling of the egg box?

With the substrateless method, there is water in the bottom of the tub. We have press 'n seal on the top of the tub. Condensation is not happening on the tub, and is very minimal on the press 'n seal.

Temps are ranging about 3 deg., from 86-89.

Eggs have not rolled while in the tub. How critical is that from when they are laid to when they're in the tub? That is, how critical is it to keep them upright from the way they were in the snake tub with momma to their orientation in the egg tub? I just worry that we won't be able to mark the top of each egg before it rolls as we take the female off the eggs...

I haven't put a humidity sensor/guage in the egg tub itself to measure. With the substrateless method, others have said that it's foolproof on the humidity. Are these just getting too wet?

Maybe the lower right egg is just infertile...I don't know. What's the difference between an infertile egg and a slug?

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

Temps are ranging about 3 deg., from 86-89.

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Spot on there

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Eggs have not rolled while in the tub. How critical is that from when they are laid to when they're in the tub? That is, how critical is it to keep them upright from the way they were in the snake tub with momma to their orientation in the egg tub? I just worry that we won't be able to mark the top of each egg before it rolls as we take the female off the eggs...

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Tim Bailey did an experiment where he rolled an egg over shorty after being laid and it had no effect on the snake at all the embryo just righted itself and all was good but after the first 24 hours of being laid the embryo is attached and shouldn't be moved..

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I haven't put a humidity sensor/guage in the egg tub itself to measure. With the substrateless method, others have said that it's foolproof on the humidity. Are these just getting too wet?

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It's possible..but not likely..

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Maybe the lower right egg is just infertile...I don't know. What's the difference between an infertile egg and a slug?

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and infertile egg is a perfectly formed egg that lacks an embryo. A slug is a follical that never was meant to be an egg..typically they are smaller darker and will never do anything but rot..

You might as well toss the two on the right. They are definitely dead and will just stink up your incubator. The bottom left one looks to be dead but I would give it a few days to make sure. For them to be bad this fast they were more than likely not fertile from the start.

It could just be the flash but they do look very wet, just to be sure, none of the eggs are in any direct contact with any water, right? BP eggs should be exposed to as much humidity as possible with no direct contact with liquid water.

I would try to separate the 2 middle eggs from the other as much as possible.

And let me ask you this, on the discolored eggs that have veins, how well do the veins look?
In a healthy BP egg the veins look nice and defined. On dead eggs they tend to start looking blurry and frayed as the veins start to break down.

There is absolutely no water touching the eggs.

The veins in the discolored eggs are as you suggest, not well defined, and blurry... :(

I hope it's just my bad luck (nothing seems to be going right for me lately...) and not something I did wrong.

We had the eggs in the tub within 3-5 hours of her laying them, so I don't think, based on replies, that it's the rotating egg thing.

We have absolutely no water in contact with them, so I don't think it's that. Condensate is not forming on them, either.

We didn't use sterile gloves to handle the eggs...I haven't read anywhere that it would be necessary. Is it a possible contaminated environment/touched eggs with dirty hands/dirty tub/bad air/etc?

We have our next clutch due to be laid in 8-12 days. I don't want to have been the cause of eggs going bad, and possibly causing it again. I sure feel incompetent at this point.

How much swing in temp is allowable in the incubator without causing problems? It seems nobody has a real answer for this...I know we want it to be as little as possible, but is a 6 degree swing still tolerable/ok?

A few things stand out at me. I'm by no means an expert nor am I very experienced, but that temp swing is really big. That worries me. Usually a temp swing of 2 degrees is something to worry about. What are you using for a thermostat? Proportionals are really the only thing that should be used for incubating because they help dampen temp swings. Also, if you don't have any water bottles in the incubator I would get some in there. They help stabilize the temps and hold temps when you open the incubator. As for your substrateless, people generally still put some vermiculite in there or something of the sort to ensure the water doesn't evaporate, which is much easier to do with just water in a tub.

Other than that, those green eggs are definitely bad. I would wait on the third egg starting to turn green. If the third one is touching another egg don't worry about it if you can't get it off the good egg. I had a bater full of bad eggs last year and didn't take any of them out/apart from the good eggs. One egg that was turning green made it all the way to day 52 when it finally died. Three eggs made it to the end (all attached to eggs that started rotting at day 18). The babies all ended up train wrecks, which would explain why they were randomly dying. Perhaps that's why yours are dying? I wouldn't be too surprised if that happened from the temp swings. This year I'm totally revamping my incubator in case something was wrong with it. I had a helix running and I don't think I ever had more than a 1 degree temp swing, but who knows. :( Good luck with your eggs, I know how you're feeling.

I would guess they were infertile from the start and it's nothing you did.

A 3 degree temp swing may not be ideal by incubator standards, but it can't be any more extreme than what an eggs sees in the wild...

With out having direct experience I have read that swings are worse than being a bit low or high, there is a range that works but shifting across it seems bad. I don't like my hot spots in the enclosures to swing 6 degrees.

It's tough to tell from that picture, but is that egg crate the only thing separating the eggs from the water at the bottom of the tub? If so, you might want to add a couple inches of PVC pipe on each corner of the egg crate to lift it higher above the water. If the eggs are just places on the crate, which is just placed in the tub, it could very well be that in carrying the egg box too and from the incubator water splashed up and soaked the eggs enough to encourage them to rot. Anywho, just a thought! Good luck with the remaining good looking eggs though!

Cheers,
-Matt

Damn they look really wet.

Sorry to see that dude. =/

I would've probably used something in there instead of just water, i.e. vermiculite and then as much water as i felt like but still using the grate to keep the eggs dry.
Sucks bro.

I also use some vermiculite or perlite below the grid to prevent splashing/sloshing when moving the tub. Even though there is substrate, it is still considered substrateless because the eggs aren't in contact with it. Loosing eggs always sucks, I feel your pain.

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, we have something separating the crate from the water. I agree, too, that we should use some vermiculite on the next one. We didn't add water to the tub until it was already in the 'bator. We're down to 3 eggs with good veins. 2 of those 3 look great, and the 3rd is questionable. Hope we get at least the 2 babies.

I'd ditch the seal a meal, it caused me the same issues early on last season and after I removed it and let the tubs breath my eggs did wonderful.
I know some people use seal a meal but I had bad results with it....

I use vermiculite below light diffuser and have 3 small holes in my 7qt locking lid tubs to allow ventilation and since I went to doing it this way have had no molding issues.

Sorry for the loss, hopefully you'll get the humidity issues worked out before your next eggies.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I'd ditch the seal a meal, it caused me the same issues early on last season and after I removed it and let the tubs breath my eggs did wonderful.
I know some people use seal a meal but I had bad results with it....

I use vermiculite below light diffuser and have 3 small holes in my 7qt locking lid tubs to allow ventilation and since I went to doing it this way have had no molding issues.

Sorry for the loss, hopefully you'll get the humidity issues worked out before your next eggies.

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I was wondering about the press and seal for this year. I think I will be getting rid of it too! Thanks :gj:

I have never used the sub less method. Ive questioned whether the two bad eggs were even good in the first place. But it doesnt make sence with the third. Possibly bc Of the seal they werent getting enough oxygen exchange? Did you have any holes in the top at all? I do know the way I inc. With vermiculite and holes in the top works well. I've only Had 2 stills throughout my whole breeding experience 4th year now, it seems to work well and I'm comfortable with it. Last year I think the two stills from the same clutch was due to too low of temps from a new inc malfunctioning. Perhaps a few holes or not sealing the tub would prevent the two remaining eggs to die.
Morgan

Yeah, now I'm wondering about the necessity of press 'n seal. People always refer to using it, so I used it. Is it really necessary? Or is it one more thing that breeders do that's unnecessary?

What I see going on with your eggs is simply that they were not fertilized from the beginning, or they were no strong embryos and died or both.

As far the wetness issues, I personally prefer to use vermiculite (Coarse or fine), and I supplement the moisture loss using direct spray of the substrate and eggs at 3, 5, and 7 weeks. This course has provided me with viable eggs throughout incubation to the effect of 75 eggs laid and 1 bad last season and an untold number of Burm and Retic eggs that I used this formula on since 2001.

I personally do not see an issue with eggs that get water on them. I have never seen it “kill” an egg and have only had positive effects on them. I know this is not the “popular opinion”, but it is my experience based on literature I have read and applied to my own collection.

In short, I am sorry that this clutch went bad for you so far. I would say use the vermiculite, lose the press and seal and keep the humidity high, like it seems you are doing.

Good luck this season!

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

There is absolutely no water touching the eggs.

The veins in the discolored eggs are as you suggest, not well defined, and blurry... :(

I hope it's just my bad luck (nothing seems to be going right for me lately...) and not something I did wrong.

We had the eggs in the tub within 3-5 hours of her laying them, so I don't think, based on replies, that it's the rotating egg thing.

We have absolutely no water in contact with them, so I don't think it's that. Condensate is not forming on them, either.

We didn't use sterile gloves to handle the eggs...I haven't read anywhere that it would be necessary. Is it a possible contaminated environment/touched eggs with dirty hands/dirty tub/bad air/etc?

We have our next clutch due to be laid in 8-12 days. I don't want to have been the cause of eggs going bad, and possibly causing it again. I sure feel incompetent at this point.

How much swing in temp is allowable in the incubator without causing problems? It seems nobody has a real answer for this...I know we want it to be as little as possible, but is a 6 degree swing still tolerable/ok?

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My opinion of your eggs, is very similar to most. I believe the eggs that are going bad were destined to do so. My thinking also says that if any eggs are doing good this far into incubation, then obviously you are doing it right, or the other two would be dying as well.

As far as rotating eggs goes, as Ed stated, I did an experiment with this a couple years ago. I rotated an egg after it had been incubating for 7 days, and another egg after incubating for 14 days. I rotated them 180 degrees, and both hatched just fine. I personally do not feel that moving the eggs is that de3trimental, although I don't advise it if it can be avoided.

I don't think sterile gloves are necessary, nor do I believe that a perfectly clean environment is necessary. I am not saying be filthy, but we take no special precautions for egg care.

As far as temp swings go, as you seem to know, and most have supported this, temp swings should be avoided. However, they are inevitable, and we all experience them for some reason or other. I believe that 3 degrees in your normal incubating is probably fine, although I would consider that the limit of what I would want to see in normal circumstances. We have experienced as much as 8 degrees due to power loss. My opinion on a large swing, would be to bring the eggs back to the desired range as slowly as possible. The largest concern for me is rapid changes in temperature. Rapid changes provide for optimal conditions for condensation formation, and that is what really kills the eggs. So, if you have a large swing, bring tham back to temp slowly. I am implying here that you had a loss of power and lost temperature, and are slowly bringing it back up. If you have a large swing in temperature in the upward direction, I belive that if you get up over about 95 degrees for any length of time, the eggs will cook, and you can't recover from that.

I hopefully will be doing a right up soon for my website that covers egg health and egg care. I will post it up here when I get it done (I know I have been moving a bit slow lately on write ups, but we just finished our all inclusive care sheet, and I am working on the egg care sheet as soon as I get the BP Care Sheet page formatted).

I hope some of that can help,

Thank you Tim! You sure give me more confidence. I guess we'll see in a few weeks, hopefully!