new thermostat on reptile basic

i saw today that reptile basic has a new thermostat the Vivarium Electronics VE-300 wondering if anyone knows anything about them as they are the same price as the helix and im in the market for a thermostat

link http://www.reptilebasics.com/ve-300.html

Looks nice. I may have to test it out here soon...

Looks interesting....you could always call and talk to Rich @ reptile basics - Im sure he would give you his honest opinion on which one was best.

I only have Helix at the moment.

I'm actually looking for a new thermostat to run some racks with a different size heat tape, and I might check this one out. Thanks for the heads up.

Quote:

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This thermostat is the result of three years of research, development and testing here at Reptile Basics.

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I'd be willing to use it just based on that right there.

Mine should be in tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works out.

Saw it today at the reptile expo. Seems like a nice unit. Looks really nice, seems to be well made. HOWEVER, since I'm into elctronics, I never buy anything like this until it's been acid tested by a few hundred breeders for some time. I'll look at it again in about 6 months and see what other's experiences have been.

But on the surface, it looks like it will give Hellix a run for their money.
Jim Smith

I got mine in the mail yesterday ,,,,, haven't had time to set it up yet.. gonna set it up tomorrow I will post up and let everyone know how it is !!

Sure with they would have had this before I ordered my helix.
Someone post up some reviews!!!!
I'm gonna be needing a couple more and this might be the right idea.

Interesting looking it has specs that look like a helix or herpstat but a bit more money 20$ and an extra 200 watts. I wonder what type of probe it is. The guts I mean, the question for me is is the probe accuracy as good as the others? I would guess so but it is a place to save some cash and hide it from the consumer who for the most part uninformed. Does anyone have complete specs?

http://reptilebasics.com/blog/2011/0...m-electronics/

Thanks for that, interesting read. I still wish the main web site was up and not just an in progress one. Anyone have an online user manual?

just got mine two days ago works great i love it. im going to post my rack i made for $20 and im using that thermostat with it

I like some of the features. The battery backup for the display, the user replaceable probe, the 700watt capacity, built in night drop, grounded cord. Sounds like a quality product and if RBI is standing behind it that says a lot right there. I think we are going to be "guinea pigs" and try it out on our incubator.

Seems like a solid tstat so far. The ability to lower the temps without having to cycle all the way through is enough to make me switch from helix, because that crap is annoying. The extra wattage should be helpful one day too.

Hello all-
I am happy to see my new gadgets have been spotted! I have always liked this forum over most of the others so I figured I will address some of the questions/statements I see here first!

First off, the probe accuracy- I have selected a digital probe, much like the other two proportional stats out there. It is in the same family of sensors as at least one of the other units and while I have not pulled apart the other to see I would be surprised if it was not also in the same family. This family of sensors is digital so no calibration is needed. They are very consistent from piece to piece and fall into the 1-2% accuracy range. The thermostat itself uses .25 degree resolution. After a gagillion hours of staring at thermostats operating about every heater I could think of I found that to be the best across the board compromise. I can get it down to around the .1 degree range but found that did not necessarily make things better and with some heaters made things worse. With this combination of probe and software resolution I could keep most all heater combinations around 1 degree once it stabilized for extended periods of time. In many cases weeks. In an insulated incubator almost indefinitely as long-as you don't open the door anyhow. That aint bad.:taz:

I also went away from the dimming method of proportional control. I went with a duty cycle approach or “pulse”. Basically we chopped up a 1 second period into about 900 parts. We gradually increase or decrease the number of parts of a second the power stays on. The trade off is this is not too good with incandescent light bulbs for heating. They will blink. But for most all other elements like heat panels, heat tape, etc this works quite well and gives me much better control than the dimming I tested did. It also helps to get rid of the annoying hum you get out of dimming stats on metal shelves- for those that care. Not to fear- a dimming version is already on the horizon for those that use light bulbs! All of the hardware is pretty much built in to the existing units we just need to get the software finished. We have been really working hard on the 3 out there now but will start on the new projects in the coming few weeks.

Next, I saw someone say they were $20 MORE than a Helix. Not sure how the math was figured on that but the VE-200 is the closest to a DBS-1000 and is about $25 LESS. Since you brought up Helix you also get more than 1 button, Hi/Lo history and a 200 watt higher power rating. The VE-300 retails about the same as the Helix and has built in night drop and alarms on top of the VE-200 features.

The battery backup in the VE-300 is also pretty nice. Should last about 3 years without any AC power. Got one going for 4 months and still going strong! I want to personally see the 3 years but will have to wait awhile. Very similar to the battery set up on a computer motherboard. By the way- ALL models retain ALL settings with a power loss and for all eternity for that matter- the battery is only for the clock so your internal night drop settings will still be working properly when AC comes back.

So why did I do all of this?
As I have seen pointed out, the 1 button thing is a bit silly. I have successfully used, and sold, Helix for many years now. But I have never understood the button thing. I know why- money, but never understood. It just does not cost that much. First declaration I made when this got started was there shall be more than one button! My next item was why not have a probe long enough to actually use without charging extra for it? I mean come on- how much does 4 more feet of wire add to the cost? How about the ability to replace the probe easily? How about the fuse as well? Again, all money driven choices but really a pain.

I have looked at hundreds of thermostats in service over the years and sold thousands. Most all of them seem to either need a p.o.s stand that sort of works to hold them up or they wind up laying on top of the rack pointing at the ceiling. I know that’s how most of mine were. Cured that. Again, simply cost a little bit more. This case also allowed me to better vent the heat out and also provide a higher power capability. The thing microprocessors and triacs really do not like is heat. The heat in a solid state thermostat comes from a component called a triac which does the switching. Neat thing is they don’t wear out but they do get hot. More power = more heat. The smaller the case the harder the heat is to get rid of. Cooler it runs the happier electronic components are.

So, if I spent more on the parts- which I did- then why am I selling them for the same or less? Simple, I don’t make as much and in my opinion for the technology offered the Helix is just not the value it once was. I wanted to make these as user friendly, uncomplicated and as durable as practical. Then I started working on sourcing parts in larger quantity to get the cost down. Not the other way around. Part of the lengthy process.

I also saw a post from someone stating they wanted to wait 6 months or so and see what happens- I 100% understand that point of view. Of course, I don’t like it! I have had beta units out in the field since middle of last year and a few here running for a few weeks longer than that. The ones here have had quite a bit of changing of software and some hardware as part of the development process but have had the same basic guts in them and are still running quite well. The beta’s out there have been humming along on the same hardware components and only a very small software change for the duration and have been operating flawlessly. The other 2 ½ years was spent with varying degrees of failure and successes that led up to this point. Testing, testing, changing, testing and more testing. I really have been hyper critical on this and the few inner circle people on this project can certainly attest to that. It seemed so much simpler in theory :)

I personally test and do the final assembly on each one before it goes in the box. When it leaves here I can say it 100% worked.

A couple of years back I started producing my own heat panels here. One of the competing makers started a pretty hardcore smear campaign. Houses will burn! Animals will die! A terrible plague will fall on all non believers! Well, a couple of years later and 3000+ panels I have replaced 2. Neither did anything dramatic, they just quit. Replaced them both. One was obvious operator error and one of the first 20 panels I sold. the other I have not seen personally yet but again, no drama- just stopped. To date I have not yet “smeared” back. Really not much point. Reason I have a good rep in this community is I tend to keep my mouth shut and answer questions pretty straight when asked. Not a lot of drama. I also am pretty slow to add or change things. I like them to work and be a pretty decent value and be suited to the task for which they are intended. Fact is, there are two other very reputable stat makers in the proportional category already out there and like anything there are pro’s and con’s all the way around including here. I come to the table with what I believe to be some good pro’s and I hope you will try out my new stats (Even if it is 6 months from now!). I enlisted the capabilities of a couple of very experienced engineers and spent as much time as was required to have the best chance of success. This was something I really did not need to do. It was something I wanted to do.

Oh, forgot to mention- several other new toys on this same hardware platform coming over the horizon! The VE website will be up and running very shortly. I spent about all of my time getting the stats to work right and now I need to catch up on the other trimmings that go along with it. Site will have resellers listed, both here and abroad as well as more detailed specs and instruction manuals. Feel free to ask in the mean time!

Great response Rich, I'm sure I'll be adding one of these to my stable soon. Seems I can't go more than a few months without ordering something from you. :D

You just earned respect with me, PERIOD!
Mine has been up and running for almost a month and to me all 7 pieces of 11" flex are at more constant temps than the Helix.
The one hooked to the VE vary by about 2 or 3 degrees and the helix is closer to 3 to 5.:confused:

Rich thanks for answering my accuracy concerns a two degree throw at the worst case is about as good as can be expected, better than 90% of the thermometers regularly seen in the herp market.

I have a second fiddly question if the VE 200 is connected to a modified seine wave will it continue to work effectively or will the unit 'stick' and end up in a dead off or run away ON state?

I also was the one who questioned the price point I believe the current pricing places all three units within 26$ (herpstat grounded 113$ dbs1000 grounded 136$ and VE-300 139$) Personally I don't care much about the pricing the question is always what is best for my animals. I just felt that I try to have facts right I check before I post, 90% of the time, and if I don't I state it up front. No offence just clarifying my previous statement was accurate.

Do you have a multi probe, Accurate (+/- 0.5ºF would be nice... 1ºF is more realistic I guess) temperature tracking system in the works? I have been hoping that one will appear on the market but so far no dice. If I am dreaming, with a networkable, universal web interface... :D

Thanks for the input, and I am sure your product will do well I am hoping to order one sometime after the summer to test it out.
Alex

I've had mine for a month also. I've had it hooked up to my incubator and so far it's doin' good. Has lots of features and easy to operate. I'll buy more of them. Hell of a device.......

Kitedemon-
Accuracy is important but I think many also get too hung up on it. In the end the thermostat wants to be as or more stable than the element being used and any more than that is really not getting us anywhere. The element being used is generally heat tape and while neat stuff it is not NASA ready if you know what I mean. Fortunately our animals like to regulate themselves if given the opportunity. In my seemingly endless hours of taking notes I found the moving to a higher resolution than the .25 worked well with less aggressive heaters in larger cages - i.e. things were very slow to change and the algorithm could respond smoothly. That set up was not really a good representation of real world. When I used it on racks like most of us are playing with it was actually less stable than the lower .25 resolution. It was in constant fluctuation- a bit of a fight with itself. I had actually thought about an "incubator" model with the very tight resolution as well as a real world version but after wresting with the response time of the algorithm and the resolution I got where it is now. So far I have not found a scenario that it does not do very well in.
Was not being sensitive on the price comparison, just did not understand it? The way I went at this was to design regardless of price then see where it could be beaten down to then see where it landed. If it was not competitive then I was going to abandon project. Like I said, no shortage of nice stats in the world so unless this was going to add something there was not much point. You would likely pass out if you knew how much money I had to tie up in this :(.

As for your multi probe tracking gadget. The short answer is yes. Already got all of that built in to the box. I won't get in to too much detail about it yet but I think it will meet the requirements you are putting forth. On that we can dial up the resolution quite a bit more as we are recording, not acting on the data. As for the accuracy- we are still subject to the 1% or so on the digital sensor itself. A component called a thermistor could be used and "calibrated" which would get us better than that but the problem then is that exact probe must be used in that exact port and that calibration can drift over time and need to be redone. Not really realistic for this market.

The sine wave issue is a tough one on triac devices. I have tested these on the two generators I have here. One a household 18KW and the other my 5kw Honda. Worked fine on both of them but unfortunately there can be a lot, and I mean alot, of variation from generator to generator. We selected a triac and driving components that would tolerate the most sloppiness and would deal with the most different types of loads (resistive elements, pumps, etc)- we did not go with a single triac driver device but rather built our own driver. This was one of the considerations. The "out of the box" driver would have been a little easier and about the same money but I have also seen complications with them. Tough to say on a case by case basis so try it out first before you need that generator. The power supply for the processor is very stable and will tolerate about anything so the brains of the operation should be ok- just that pesky triac.

I realize that 1º on a t-stat is fine. I have tested an un-named on/off t-stat that the probe was reading 3ºF high and then the shut off point was yet another 5º so when set for 92 it delivered an average of 95º but the spike was 100 and it hit that spike every 10 min of so. Accurate to 1 degree is fine, I feel it is very important to figure the 'swing' into things set to 91 the expected range of 90-92 is reasonable. Probe accuracy is paramount, and understanding that it is potentially off alters the way the T-Stat can be safely used.

I calibrate processors as part of my work, I have very good thermometers (thermocouple) I know exactly how crummy the cheap digital ones are. I have about 16 now and little notes on them about how far away from correct they are when the hit 4º I toss them. I understand that a resistive sensor is about the only way to go that is salable. I mean a $3000 4 probe thermometer is not going to be sell. My OCD can tolerate 1º +/- but the typical 2º makes me crazy. One of the ones I got (I will remember to check the specs before buying) is 2ºC +/- I have never used it at all.

I have been working on a battery back up system. There is a silly by-law about running gas motors outside for longer than 30 min a day. That means no generators and not wanting to rock the reptile boat in my area I adhere to that. The cost of an independent heating T-stat and pure seine wave inverter not to mention battery rack is prohibitive. A modified seine wave inverter as you well know drops the cost dramatically. I have looked at on off units as well but my first one I tested made me uneasy. I would expect the Honda to be fine, they I believe, use a pure seine wave inverter. The rest... I expect are modified and we know how much variation you can see there.

Thanks for your answers, that helps. I hope you find time to complete the specs soon and complete the web site as well. I was quite skeptical in my first initial glance of your product. Without hard information I am unwilling to trust the welfare of my animals (I care about them a great deal) to anything. T-stats to my mind a critical safety component and also quite likely the most prone to issues. Personally I think you have a great unit and I hope your thermometer system is ready soon. I currently am using a herpstat pro as a thermometer system but really would like a web reporting but as an Apple computer guy the software Dion has just won't work well.

Thank You,
Alex

Alex-
Just got an idea reading about your battery backup system- What if I where to try plugging a unit with a load into a cheap car inverter? That would be about as big a mess as I expect you would see anywhere??

Rich,

Products look great. I may have to consider switching over my stats at some point if these are as good as they look.

One question, any models in the works to rival the Herpstat II or the Herpstat Pro? The 2-in-1 and 4-in-1 models to have a lot of appeal (particularly in value), granted you have to accept the single point of failure as well.

That being said, the 400 watt rating on each channel of the Herpstat Pro (which has proven to be somewhat of a cumbersome limitation) is more than surpassed by the 700 of the VEs.

The design, presentation, and everything of these VEs look great, and based on our experiences with you with everything else I have no doubt that you have put in extraordinary testing into these new units before bringing them to market.

Oh, one other note of a trivial nature...the blue and white LCDs that Spyder Robotics happened upon really are a nice upgrade, any consideration there for VEs?

Great stuff Rich, keep it up. I'm sure these will be among our countless other orders in the future.

There is a 2-1 in the works already. It will likely end up being about 450 maybe 500 watts per side. The heat and current limitations are the issue there. I think I have a work around for that I will be playing with in the coming few months but not yet sure of monetary feasibility as of yet.

At this time I do not have a 4-1 planned. The single point of failure issue weighs heavy. Not saying it is a bad thing but to me it has exceeded the point of diminishing return.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twisted Reptiles

Oh, one other note of a trivial nature...the blue and white LCDs that Spyder Robotics happened upon really are a nice upgrade, any consideration there for VEs?

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I was thinking the same thing. I'd love to have the option of a different colored LCD.

It already looks like a great thermostat, having different colored LCD's would just be icing on the cake:)

Have not really thought about it actually. Maybe. Might wind up bumping the price up a couple of bucks. Once I get through the current batch of lcd's I will certainly look into it.

I recently purchased the VE-300 from rich about 2 weeks ago along with a couple of the CB70 racks and I have nothing bad to say about it at all, even though this is the first real thermostat I have used it was real easy to setup and works flawless and looks real nice sitting on top of the rack instead of hanging off the side or onhe wall. I have the probe directly on the heat tape like rich suggested and the difference between the top slot and the bottom slot is only 1 to 2 degrees I am very happy with this thermostat and will be buying more in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reptilebasics

Have not really thought about it actually. Maybe. Might wind up bumping the price up a couple of bucks. Once I get through the current batch of lcd's I will certainly look into it.

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I personally would have no problem with paying a little extra to be able to choose the color of the LCD. I'm a fan of the cool blue LCD's with white letter/numbers.

My add just kicked in!! The one and only thing I HATE about the unit is the """RED""" flashing light.
Being and auto mechanic, RED=Bad and I have to keep reminding myself that on this one red is ok:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agent73

I personally would have no problem with paying a little extra to be able to choose the color of the LCD. I'm a fan of the cool blue LCD's with white letter/numbers.

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Same here. I've gotten very used to the blue white white lettering. I love that I can see it from across the room without issue.

Rich,
A typical auto inverter would likely be a torture test for a Triac. I would not expect great reliable results, although you never know.

I run a completely dual system now flexwatt for hot and cool sides on everything. (17 inch low voltage stuff on the cool side it doesn't get much over 89º ever.) and would love to have a set of cool side controllers plugged into an transfer switch from the line to a inverter with 4 deep cycle marine batteries. Power goes off and a second later the cool end climate controls are back up and running off batteries.

The temp may drop but at least one end of the enclosures will be 80ºF that is my hope anyway, the failing has been the inverter a pure seine wave one is in the range of 1000$ then add batteries and well you can see the math... BEL or battery backup thingy... it is a bit of a hard sell if you see my point. How often does the power go off, in winter, when you are not home, and for more than 8 hours? But it only takes once.

I am very interested in knowing what will happen if you get around to that test.

Thank You
Alex

Alex- You have me curious now as well. I would agree that the car inverter would be a train wreck but it does not really cost anything to try it out either. Let me see if I have time tomorrow to camp out in my truck for a little while................

Well Rich that is going to interesting to see for sure. If you want to send one up to me I can test it out and let you know what happens.... :D I have a couple a 2000 and 750 watt ones... I also have a tronix explorer se ... I don't mind testing one at all...

Alex ;)

Ok-
I finally got time to test the ve's out on a car inverter. The messiest of all power sources. I did not expect anything great but what the heck?

Worked fine. Tried it for about an hour with a 28 watt heat panel, probe on the lens surface. Acted 100% normal, got up to temp in a few minutes and stayed within 2 degrees (not bad for a 63 degree car seat) the whole time using the hi/lo history. Pretty happy with that. I will say that 5anyone wanting to use an alternate power source like a generator or inverter should definitely do a little testing of their own as every one can be a little different. Still, not too shabby!

Smae here I'm really used to and love the blue LCD screen. I'll be looking to buy one when they come in blue 2

Wow Rich that is unexpected! gee and news on that demo? ;)

Sorry, bad news :colbert:
Thought you where going to wait 6 months??

I will let you all know Wednesday when the 3 I ordered get here. I know I will like them though after talking with Rich about them. Like I have always said since I started dealing with him. He stands by his word and is an outstanding customer service minded person to deal with. He has saved my behind more than once with idea's on how to do what I want easier and better.

I have the 300 tstat from reptile basics and love it!

Alex-
How about this, buy one and if it does not live up to expectations I will take it back for full refund including shipping. That work?

I will be in White Plains NY this weekend if anyone wants to check them out!

I just ordered a ve 300! Can't wait to get it!! I'll let everyone know how it is. Thanks again Rich.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reptilebasics

I also went away from the dimming method of proportional control. I went with a duty cycle approach or “pulse”. Basically we chopped up a 1 second period into about 900 parts. We gradually increase or decrease the number of parts of a second the power stays on. The trade off is this is not too good with incandescent light bulbs for heating. They will blink.

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In theory this would not work. Zero crossing happens 120 times per second (two half cycles with a standard and inverted wave at 60hz). The component that controls the AC (Triac) can be turned on anywhere within the half cycle but can not be turned off manually. It has to wait for the voltage to drop back to zero before before it "releases". It can then be refired on the next half cycle. Pulsing the circuit more or less times makes no difference because onces its fired you are along for the ride. So the maxiumum number of time slices per second is 120 with a triac. The only exception would be if it was mosfet controlled in which the DC current can be turned on/off at will. Sorry, I had to. :D

Dion Brewington
Owner, Spyder Robotics

Yes, maximum number of opportunities to grab the zero crossing is 120 times per second. 120*8 is 960. The algorithm is using 960. Reason for that is more software guys specialty but it allowed me to not move one full "slice" per pass through the software loop. Had something to do with the speed of the clock set up for the main program loop. Made it much easier to soften the rate of change in the output duty cycle. He had it set up for less but while experimenting we found it desirable to use the larger number.

I have one of these and I love the proportional day and night built into it without adding anything to it. It was well worth the price. I have it attached to a 6 shelf rack with 15 feet of heat tape and it works great. Keeps 92 degrees in the day time and 90 int he evening. I set the day time temp to start at 0830am and the night to start at 0830pm. Also it has an alarm that sounds if it reached 5 degrees hotter or cooler than what you have it set at. And also an alarm if it has a critical error and the system shuts down. There is also a fail safe on it so if you lose power it will remember what temps and times were set so you will not have to set it again. I love it and would recommend it to anyone for a thermostat.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7...statlcdbig.jpg


I have choose this one (195.00)
made by

Daniel Chochuľa

http://morel.snadno.eu/Termostaty-a-regulacia.html
you have to ask for 120volt edition, no extra fee

Measurement and control of temperature and humidity.
functions:
heating, cooling.
humidification, drying.
Timers.
Cycler. (periodic switching the set time napr.natáčanie eggs, ventilation etc.)
counting the days until the end of the incubation warning in achieving the expected number of days .
Audible alarm for loss of sensors, in decline, overruns the desired temperature or humidity.

he built many model this one 6 zones control

http://morel.snadno.eu/6thum.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by floricole

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7...statlcdbig.jpg


I have choose this one (195.00)
made by

Daniel Chochuľa

http://morel.snadno.eu/Termostaty-a-regulacia.html
you have to ask for 120volt edition, no extra fee

Measurement and control of temperature and humidity.
functions:
heating, cooling.
humidification, drying.
Timers.
Cycler. (periodic switching the set time napr.natáčanie eggs, ventilation etc.)
counting the days until the end of the incubation warning in achieving the expected number of days .
Audible alarm for loss of sensors, in decline, overruns the desired temperature or humidity.

he built many model this one 6 zones control

http://morel.snadno.eu/6thum.jpg

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Why did you resurrect this thread? Better yet, why does anyone resurrect threads that are over 2 years old.