Multiple females same tank.... why not?

After reading up on how balls live in the wild I've found that multiple snakes will live together in one den. So why not put your females together?

The main reason I want to is I have the chance to get a really big tank (6'x3'x18") and I think three females (similar size) could fit in it nicely and it provides a nice display for me. The males will stay separate.

Zoo's put them together and they are found together in the wild so it gives the impression that it could be done w/o much concern.

Is anyone here housing their snakes together and what issues have you run into?

If I have to wait to get two 36" tanks I will, but I think the space of a six foot tank would be nice to have.

Well you could put plexi dividers in the new tank, the main reason you don't house them together is dominance & stress.

I received to rescues a couple years back that were housed together one weighed 1875g, while the other weighed 731g. Now they are close to the same weight.

Never have I done this nor will I ever, but honestly if ALL snakes are 100% for sure healthy and there are multiple hot spots in the enclosure then I don't see why not.

The problem with having only one hot spot is that one snake could get more of the heat in than the others, which can cause the others to get an RI if they don't get the right temperatures. Then if that happens, they'll all be sick.

The only downside I see to keeping Balls together (well in this case since its all females) is that they may get stressed from the other roomies in the enclosure and so any of them could stop eating from the amount of stress (which if too stressed for too long can also cause respiratory distress). I've seen female Balls kept together in vision cages with no problems what so ever, so it's not like this is impossible to pull off.

I'd say try it out and see how it goes, but definitely have multiple hot spots in the enclosure. If any of them go off feed for a long time with no interest in food at all, separate the refusers and keep them seperate from the others. Even separate any that are acting different than normal, just in case.

I'd like to see how this goes, it seems very interesting.

And for a little tip, during feeding time always feed them separate from each other to refrain from them attacking each other because they mistook them for food or if all try to go over one rat.

Hope this helped, maybe someone else can chime in as well for a second opinion.

Its just not good to house any snakes together. Besides the stress they go through and one dominating the other, if there is an illness and there is something like a bloody poop, how do you know which snake has the problem?

The problem in my eyes is that in the wild, yes, you may find females together.
However, they were not put there against there will, nor are they locked inside a rodent burrow with a lid.
They choose to house together, and they have the option to leave if they want to--and not only leave, but go FAR, FAR AWAY. An almost unlimited amount of space away.
People use the argument "but in the wild..."
They are not in the wild. The truth is that when we own them, they are in captivity, and it is very different.
Do they have their instincts? Yes. But to keep them safe, and ourselves safe, we take control of a lot of their ability to use their instinctive behavior--keeping them in a tank, feeding them properly sized food (and often), determining the space they live in, etc.
Not that it's bad for us to do that, but you have to understand, you cannot take a snake who has lived in captivity with humans making its decisions for it and expect it to flourish in the wild, or survive in a tank being expected to act like an 18 foot tank is the wild.
It is not.
A tank is a tank.
Nature is nature.
They are not the same.
I hope that helps. :)
Shellie
(why not make a rack system for your snakes?)

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Originally Posted by randy8876

so it gives the impression that it could be done w/o much concern.

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This is probably the biggest problem I have with your argument. Whenever you are housing more than one animal together, the first thing you need to do is CONCERN yourself with all of the potential problems that could arise. I will say that most of them have been covered in this thread alrady, but it may be justified to put them all in one place.

Dominance is a big issue. One animal will always be dominant. It is your duty to ensure that the submissive animal is still getting all that it requires.

Illness is another issue. As stated by others, if there is a sign in the tank that one snake my have a problem, how do you know which snake it is (i.e. bloody stool, saliva smears on the tank, blood sroplets, etc.). Also, it is much easier for the spread of illnesses between animals that can contact each other.

Cannibalism. While this is relatively rare in Ball Pythons, it has occured, and is always a possibility. It typically ends up in both animals dying. Obviously the one that got eaten is dead, but the eater typically regurgitates the other snake and then proceeds to die as well.

Just some food for thought. I am not one that claims that it cannot be done, but there is alot of thought, and surely plenty of CONCERN that needs to go into housing animals together.

Here is my canned reply on the topic:

Tim and Shelliebear totally hit the nail on the head though.

These animals are our charges, with some species I can see merrit to keeping them together. I house some geckos in pairs or trios after an initial separate set up. If someone is getting bullied, they get separated immediately. With ball pythons, I just don't see any pros that are actually worth it for the animals.

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To quote another post on the exact same topic (PS: search feature is your friend). Take this post with a grain of salt, but please understand why it is better for your animals to each have a home, than to have to share one. (This post was also made for someone who was already housing animals together).

NO, you should not.

it is NOT good for the animals to be housed together. There are a multitude of reasons for this, including but not limited to the following;

1. You didnt quarantine your new addition and if its carrying something, chances are your older animal has it too anything from parasites, worms, sickness and disease, (even if there arent any symptoms yet)

2. Did you get these animals sexed from a reliable source? Or are you trusting the pet store.. This means you could have two opposite genders and you have the chance that they could now breed early causing the female (if one is a female) problems and possibly killing her

3. Cannibalism is known to occur in a few documented cases involving BPs

4. If one of your animals is sick, you probably wont know which one because you cant tell their feces/urates/regurges apart

5. If one gets sick, they both get sick and now you have to spend 2x the amount of money in vet care.

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake competing with the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels. They will constantly be competing for the best hide spots and best heating spots, etc.

housing two animals in one enclosure when they arent social isnt something novice keepers should do. Each animal should have their own space to thrive. If cost is the problem then maybe you need to take one back or rehome him until you can provide a sutible environment for any animal that comes into your home.

Has ANYONE who has posted an opinion against keeping snakes together ever ACTUALLY PERSONALLY kept them that way?

If not, well.....

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Has ANYONE who has posted an opinion against keeping snakes together ever ACTUALLY PERSONALLY kept them that way?

If not, well.....

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Where do you think I got to see canibalization first hand?

I could guess or you could tell me.

One would be worth the effort involved, the other not so much.

Feeding together and keeping together, to me, are not the same thing.

Was your experience a feeding mishap or a keeping mishap?

Hi,

I admit I do not have anywhere near the experience of either of you. :oops:

But I have kept a group of females together for years and then changed to housing the same snakes individually.

Mine eat and breed better being housed singly in tubs than they did in one large ceramic heated vivarium. Your milage may vary but I am never going back to multiple snakes per enclosure - I don't have to feed in seperate containers, worry about who crapped what and, honestly, my snakes seem to do better.

I was kind of a brat about being told to change from the old system when I first joined though. :oops: :taz:


dr del

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Originally Posted by randy8876

After reading up on how balls live in the wild I've found that multiple snakes will live together in one den. So why not put your females together?

The main reason I want to is I have the chance to get a really big tank (6'x3'x18") and I think three females (similar size) could fit in it nicely and it provides a nice display for me. The males will stay separate.

Zoo's put them together and they are found together in the wild so it gives the impression that it could be done w/o much concern.

Is anyone here housing their snakes together and what issues have you run into?

If I have to wait to get two 36" tanks I will, but I think the space of a six foot tank would be nice to have.

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Really? Where did you read that? Everybody here will tell you it's against the commonly-accepted wisdom. I'd love to see a reference.

I actually do have an enormous tank full of sub-adult females here, and a second large tank with the off-duty breeder males. Everything has been perfectly harmonious for 2 years, with the following caveats:

1.) I have to take them out of the tank and feed separately every week. This is non-negotiable. The risk of feeding 'accidents' if two snakes go for the same mouse is simply too great.

2.) Housing three of four girls in one tank means cleaning that tank 3 or 4 times more often. Once a month I have to clean the hides, because they're gross. Between this and feeding separately, I'm losing in time and effort what I'm presumably saving in housing costs.

3.) I live in the desert, so keeping the humidity in a good range for shedding is difficult. Tubs work much better for this than the big tank, and I've actually begun putting the bachelor/ette snakes into my spare breeding tub whenever I notice they're in shed.

4.) The males in the bachelor tank have been locking with each other the last two winters while they're waiting for their turn to cycle in with the breeding girls. This doesn't seem to be a problem, but it's, uh, embarrassing when company comes over.

5.) I won't house (or breed) ball pythons together if the largest weighs more than twice as much as the smallest. Even if there's realistically no real danger of aggression or cannibalization, the big one could still squash the little one. I just can't convince myself there's no danger.

But that's it. I'm one of those aggravating people with multiple females sharing an oversized 60 gallon tank whose animals eat really well and are healthy as horses. Every night two or three of them come out and climb around, and I swear if one takes up a project (let's poke at this corner all night tonight! Poke! Poke!) the others will decide it must be the thing to do. I do think they get more exercise with this set up then they would in separate tubs. And it's frankly a lot of fun to watch them.

Oh, and: I'm going out of town for a several weeks this summer on fellowship, leaving my husband to take care of the snakes. It will be MUCH, MUCH easier for him if I have them all separated and in racks. I kind of can't stand how tiny the standard tub is, but I'm going to get a rack anyway from Animal Plastics. We'll see how the snakes react.

It'll also be good to finally have enough rack space for everyone, because there is one big, very real danger with shared housing: disease/infection. If one of my girls were to get an upper respiratory infection, I'd have to separate them IMMEDIATELY and keep them quarantined and separate until they were all completely recovered. This has never happened to me yet, but I have had a scare when one of them came down with diarrhea briefly this summer. Frankly, in the case of multiply-housed snakes, it's not even easy to tell WHICH snake had the diarrhea... and we have to assume that sooner or later somebody WILL get sick.

I will sometimes keep multiple young ball pythons in the tubs but keep males and female separate. But they all get their own tubs when they hit the 300-400 gram mark and I have time to make more space. I havnt had any problems with doing this in aspects of aggression but there are always 1 or 2 that seem to grow way faster than the rest.

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

Its just not good to house any snakes together. Besides the stress they go through and one dominating the other, if there is an illness and there is something like a bloody poop, how do you know which snake has the problem?

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very good point.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Really? Where did you read that? Everybody here will tell you it's against the commonly-accepted wisdom. I'd love to see a reference.

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Here are a couple.

http://animal.discovery.com/guides/r...allpython.html

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It may share a burrow peacefully with others of its kind.

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Also on this 'rustic' video it shows them in the wild together:
http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/

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Originally Posted by loonunit

But that's it. I'm one of those aggravating people with multiple females sharing an oversized 60 gallon tank whose animals eat really well and are healthy as horses. Every night two or three of them come out and climb around, and I swear if one takes up a project (let's poke at this corner all night tonight! Poke! Poke!) the others will decide it must be the thing to do. I do think they get more exercise with this set up then they would in separate tubs. And it's frankly a lot of fun to watch them.

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I've found the same. Match the sizes and give plenty of space, hiding spots and things to crawl on and they seem more active, as if feeding off the actions of others.

The biggest concern to me is disease, which is legitimate.

If you choose to be it you must be aware at all times of the risks, and accept the fact that bad things really could happen. Animals in our home are entirely reliant on us to survive, as we give them the space and heat and food. We have the option to give them nearly completely risk free lives--no danger of predators, if fed f/t no danger of injuries from prey, on newsprint/fed in a tub there is no danger of ingesting dirt/substrate with their meals..

The biggest issue for me is, keeping any animal means there are going to be complications, there are variables. When it comes to knowing what happened--why did my snake get sick, where did these mites come from, why did my snake suddenly die... It's good to rule out as many variables as possible. Housing two together increases the amount of variables by a lot!

But as long as you are aware of this fact, and you are careful..okay. I wouldn't do it myself honestly. But you know the risks and you are willing to accept them, so good luck, and hope you don't become one of the unlucky ones! D:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I could guess or you could tell me.

One would be worth the effort involved, the other not so much.

Feeding together and keeping together, to me, are not the same thing.

Was your experience a feeding mishap or a keeping mishap?

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It had nothing to do with feeding (they had both eaten about 4 days prior), so I guess it would be considered a keeping mishap.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

It had nothing to do with feeding (they had both eaten about 4 days prior), so I guess it would be considered a keeping mishap.

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Sure sounds like one.

thanks