Grab Bags?

Been hearing about these bags you get in trying to get some weird morphs. I know they are all normals and it's almost impossible to get a new morphs then it got me wondering where can someone get one of these.

If you get on FaunaClassifieds Look up Josh@outbackreps, He works with Outback reptiles. Last spring they where offering grab bags, imported from Africa. They are mostly normals, but you could also get yellowbelly's, broken stipes, pastels. you never know what you could get. Maybe all normals, it's a gamble.

I myself would not bother wasting the money.Thats unless you like mite or tick infested stressed out to the hilt never going to eat for ya ball pythons.They are picked thru no matter what they try to tell you.So why not spend money on established CLEAN Captive bred ball pythons?

Ya if people claim that they haven't been picked thru, I call BS. If someone goes thru the effort of importing the animals, why wouldn't they look thru to see if there is anything that looks semi special. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I myself would not bother wasting the money.Thats unless you like mite or tick infested stressed out to the hilt never going to eat for ya ball pythons.They are picked thru no matter what they try to tell you.So why not spend money on established CLEAN Captive bred ball pythons?

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Good point. That's exactly why I stay away from imports. I don't want to deal with health issues or a snake that refuses to eat...It's a great concept, but I have no doubt they have been picked through and the best/most unique are sold for 50k to the big breeders. I don't doubt there are pastels in the bags, they probably look like crap! If you keep your eye out you can find some pretty neat/unique patterned normals at shows and online.

Wow!!

I am glad people like Joe know it all !!

The true on these babies bags have been posted in other threads on her in the past, and I have gone over great detail on imports in general.

Just to be clear :

There are no mites in Africa!

C.H Babies do not have ticks either, they are not in the wild, the are hatched in a "captive" situation in West Africa. Being a loose term this could mean a large incubation room at a exporters facility, or it could be a large pit/ dug out area with damp bedding for the eggs to hatch. Either way they are not crawling around getting ticks or parasites. They hatch and are shipped generally before they are 3-4 days old.

These animals feed very well, and when compared to domestic have about the same feeding response and growth rates. The big perk on these animals is they introduce new bloodlines to existing animals on the market.

On the subject of them being picked threw in Africa : We have never stated that these baby bags will have ghost, albinos,pieds, phantoms, or anything like that. That would be stupid to say, the collectors in Africa are there to make money.
If a animal is visual that they see it being crazy then they will sell it as a special. ($50,000 not so much..)

What you can get in the baby bags is nice broken stripes, dark aberrant animals, granites, yellow bellies, high golds, odd patterns and a lot of potential morph animals. Potential morphs being animals that are different but not know what they might really be.

By sending out aberrant and fancy animals in the normal groups they are creating their own demand for their product. Baby ball volume increases by people wanting to get to see whats in the unopened bag. Letting a few nice animals go when packing bags makes sense for the exporter as it creates a demand for babies, and specials as well.

As for the bags here, babies come in at around 2500-4500 per order.


With them comes 500 Savannah's, 200 Niles, 200 fat tails, and a 100 or chameleons. The time it takes to sort soak and set up all the lizards, and fancy balls alone is back breaking. When 2500-4500 babies come in we pull the bags from the crate, (unopened) smell the bag to make sure there are no obvious DOA animals (about 1 out of every 1000 animals is DOA) and put it into a shipping box for FedEx to pick up.
The time to pick threw the bags, pull a animal that we are going to try to retail, pack the bags back up, ship the babies out and not get any happy customers is not worth it. Even if there was a albino in the bag it would not be worth while.

Babies are shipped in such volume that they need to come and go before the next group arrives.
We buy specials every year in large volume so picking threw a "normal" bag is like going to a snake show with lavender albinos and pied but only putting a normal baby male on your table..not only does it make you look bad, and upset your clients but also is far from profitable.


Like them or not, c.h and wc have their place in our industry and they ll can do very well when the right care is taken with them.

Mites and ticks are one thing... then there are parasites. :/ They're a whole different deal and the likelihood of internal parasites of any kind is a possibility.

Granted, I don't know this industry and my opinion is based off of vet assist work with dogs, cats, etc. Parasites are parasites though, so I just think that'd be one thing to definitely worry about.

Either way, I don't support any kind of animal mill, be it dogs, cats, or snakes. That is, essentially, what it is. I'm not trying to be offensive, or start an argument. Just throwing out my opinion, and I acknowledge that it's not as knowledgeable as most out there.

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Granted, I don't know this industry and my opinion is based off of vet assist work with dogs, cats, etc. Parasites are parasites though, so I just think that'd be one thing to definitely worry about.

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So are you stating your a vet tech? I actually work in a vets office while im in college for pre-vet, granted im only a freshman, but have already assisted in surgeries, administered medications, along with assisting in procedures every day.

I will tell you now a parasite is not a parasite. Parasites are extremely host specific organisms. A very small percentage of parasites, diseases, viruses, etc. are actually zoonotic, meaning they are able to be transfered to humans. So if your worried about contracting a parasite yourself from the imports than the chances are nil to none. That being said, internal parasites are treated on a regular basis, and the herps you have in your collection now most likely have some parasites residing in them at the moment, but they are not able to thrive because of the immune system.

Honestly there is not much to worry about with the parasites. Yes some are actually able to thrive in humans, but most are not. Parasites are very specialized organisms.

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

So are you stating your a vet tech? I actually work in a vets office while im in college for pre-vet, granted im only a freshman, but have already assisted in surgeries, administered medications, along with assisting in procedures every day.

I will tell you now a parasite is not a parasite. Parasites are extremely host specific organisms. A very small percentage of parasites, diseases, viruses, etc. are actually zoonotic, meaning they are able to be transfered to humans. So if your worried about contracting a parasite yourself from the imports than the chances are nil to none. That being said, internal parasites are treated on a regular basis, and the herps you have in your collection now most likely have some parasites residing in them at the moment, but they are not able to thrive because of the immune system.

Honestly there is not much to worry about with the parasites. Yes some are actually able to thrive in humans, but most are not. Parasites are very specialized organisms.

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Eek! I didn't mean getting a parasite from a snake. :P I meant that mites and ticks aren't the only worry for the health of the snakes you could get from grab bags. I was just throwing out there that they could have parasites, too and that could be an issue.

I'm not a vet tech, but I was a vet assistant. That's why I said assist. :] Just shortened it, sorry for the confusion. I helped a bit with simple surgeries, but mostly was the fecal-slave and shot-giver. I worked at an animal shelter for a year-ish doing this, so that's my experience. I'm heading toward pre-vet too, maaaybe.

Sorry about the mix-up. I'm not worried about my personal health, but the health of the critters. :]

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Originally Posted by Orlandoflor

Been hearing about these bags you get in trying to get some weird morphs. I know they are all normals and it's almost impossible to get a new morphs then it got me wondering where can someone get one of these.

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Check your local weekend reptile show. Somebody always seems to have a giant crate full of imported ball's you can rummage through (same goes for blood's and Sav's).

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Originally Posted by josh@outbackreps

Wow!!

I am glad people like Joe know it all !!

The true on these babies bags have been posted in other threads on her in the past, and I have gone over great detail on imports in general.

Just to be clear :

There are no mites in Africa!

C.H Babies do not have ticks either, they are not in the wild, the are hatched in a "captive" situation in West Africa. Being a loose term this could mean a large incubation room at a exporters facility, or it could be a large pit/ dug out area with damp bedding for the eggs to hatch. Either way they are not crawling around getting ticks or parasites. They hatch and are shipped generally before they are 3-4 days old.

These animals feed very well, and when compared to domestic have about the same feeding response and growth rates. The big perk on these animals is they introduce new bloodlines to existing animals on the market.

On the subject of them being picked threw in Africa : We have never stated that these baby bags will have ghost, albinos,pieds, phantoms, or anything like that. That would be stupid to say, the collectors in Africa are there to make money.
If a animal is visual that they see it being crazy then they will sell it as a special. ($50,000 not so much..)

What you can get in the baby bags is nice broken stripes, dark aberrant animals, granites, yellow bellies, high golds, odd patterns and a lot of potential morph animals. Potential morphs being animals that are different but not know what they might really be.

By sending out aberrant and fancy animals in the normal groups they are creating their own demand for their product. Baby ball volume increases by people wanting to get to see whats in the unopened bag. Letting a few nice animals go when packing bags makes sense for the exporter as it creates a demand for babies, and specials as well.

As for the bags here, babies come in at around 2500-4500 per order.


With them comes 500 Savannah's, 200 Niles, 200 fat tails, and a 100 or chameleons. The time it takes to sort soak and set up all the lizards, and fancy balls alone is back breaking. When 2500-4500 babies come in we pull the bags from the crate, (unopened) smell the bag to make sure there are no obvious DOA animals (about 1 out of every 1000 animals is DOA) and put it into a shipping box for FedEx to pick up.
The time to pick threw the bags, pull a animal that we are going to try to retail, pack the bags back up, ship the babies out and not get any happy customers is not worth it. Even if there was a albino in the bag it would not be worth while.

Babies are shipped in such volume that they need to come and go before the next group arrives.
We buy specials every year in large volume so picking threw a "normal" bag is like going to a snake show with lavender albinos and pied but only putting a normal baby male on your table..not only does it make you look bad, and upset your clients but also is far from profitable.


Like them or not, c.h and wc have their place in our industry and they ll can do very well when the right care is taken with them.

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So Josh you say they dont have ticks and such in Africa right? Why not explain this diseased sickly thing your trying to pawn off before it dies. http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=838513

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So Josh you say they dont have ticks and such in Africa right? Why not explain this diseased sickly thing your trying to pawn off before it dies. http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=838513

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:O is that an open wound on the back?! Nasty kink too for such an expensive animal...

yeah I saw that post also, Im knew to the ball python world but learning fast. and that open wound does not look to good. Not saying it can't be treated but expensive for the risk. Also ready to breed now? Shouldn't he be QT first?

Back on the subject of "grab bags". I have purchased at least 5 bags in 2007 and 2008 when Michael Cole would bring them in. (thats 50 animals) I was actually there one year when the crate was cracked open and pulled the 3 bags I purchased that year out of the crate. I still have 15 or so of these animals in my collection. Some have layed eggs some haven't yet. I got a couple visual granites some reduced pattern/ interesting pattern animals. A couple of these have proven to be heritable.

In the bags I got about half and half males and females, none had ticks or mites and I gave them their first meal here so they didn't have internal parasites either. CH females are always great animals to have in your collection to help keep blood line fresh. But you have to know how to start baby balls and be comfortable getting babies started.

1500 seems like an awful lot of money on an unperfect animal but i dont know what these go for usually so i may be completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

CH females are always great animals to have in your collection to help keep blood line fresh. But you have to know how to start baby balls and be comfortable getting babies started.

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Another good point I forgot about. Grab bags really aren't for beginners, at least in my opinion. Imported bps, especially ones that have never been fed, can be a real headache. I for one wouldn't do it, but if someone who was prepared for the time and effort, no one is stopping you! I'm also not a gambler and therefor don't go for grab bags of any sort, so my opinion is pretty biased on the subject. If you like to gamble it's definitely a fun way to do it! People just have to be prepared for the amount of work imports are. You can't stick them in a tank and expect them all to start eating.

And forgive me, the high end/new morphs are picked through before they are sent to grab bag people. Josh, are you saying that you don't look through the grab bags at all before they are sent? So they are already pre sorted to a certain number of bps?

How much are these grab bags anyhow?

Oh, and I must say it's comforting to know they babies should be healthy. I have seen pictures of those egg farms, and didn't think of them as a clean environment, but I suppose they are closed off from the outside world. Thanks for your info.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

Josh, are you saying that you don't look through the grab bags at all before they are sent? So they are already pre sorted to a certain number of bps?

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Yes that is what he said.

This is a sad case of $$$ > health of animal. AT LEAST treat the poor thing before you slap it up on kingsnake. It looks like it is kinked and has some kind of sore...I was actually considering one of his other ads too..not anymore!

grab bags are 150$ for 10 babies. I was considering getting a couple of bags to be honest but after that pic I'm abit on the fence

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Originally Posted by SiQ'

grab bags are 150$ for 10 babies. I was considering getting a couple of bags to be honest but after that pic I'm abit on the fence

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I suppose that's not terrible. $15 per snake, at least if they all turn out to be normals you aren't screwed.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I suppose that's not terrible. $15 per snake, at least if they all turn out to be normals you aren't screwed.

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yah true I'm very curious about it but that ad the was posted really scared me abit. I mean I would love to get 2-3 bags and see what then sell the normals and keep the ones I rly like and make some money out of it.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by SiQ'

yah true I'm very curious about it but that ad the was posted really scared me abit. I mean I would love to get 2-3 bags and see what then sell the normals and keep the ones I rly like and make some money out of it.

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A word of caution about that.

A lot of people have had the same plan and realised too late that the animals you sell directly affect your reputation.

So, if you really think ahead, you will want to make sure the babies you sell on are all eating well and healthy. That could take time and will take money in housing and feeding costs etc. Housing 30 snakes takes generally isn't cheap and, for the reasons given above, you don't want to cut too many corners.

Since you cannot try and pass them off as CB and have to be honest about their source you may not get as much as you think per snake and they will be eating and basking their way through any possible profit every week. Mutliply that by 30 (if there turned out not to be any you like in the bags ) and it can quickly become a problem.

It may be wiser to think of it as recovering some of the money you spent on them initially rather than hoping for a profit. ;)

Not trying to put you off just pointing out planning ahead can avoid a lot of potential pitfalls. :gj:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



A word of caution about that.

A lot of people have had the same plan and realised too late that the animals you sell directly affect your reputation.

So, if you really think ahead, you will want to make sure the babies you sell on are all eating well and healthy. That could take time and will take money in housing and feeding costs etc. Housing 30 snakes takes generally isn't cheap and, for the reasons given above, you don't want to cut too many corners.

Since you cannot try and pass them off as CB and have to be honest about their source you may not get as much as you think per snake and they will be eating and basking their way through any possible profit every week. Mutliply that by 30 (if there turned out not to be any you like in the bags ) and it can quickly become a problem.

It may be wiser to think of it as recovering some of the money you spent on them initially rather than hoping for a profit. ;)

Not trying to put you off just pointing out planning ahead can avoid a lot of potential pitfalls. :gj:


dr del

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O know I 100% understand the housing and feeding and such I would not be concerned about. But like you said for every month or so you have them what you thought you were getting will just keep going down. I'm on the fence about it all in gernal I may try a bag and see what I get and how hard they are to get on feed and such. I would not jump into 30+ right off after alot of the reading I have read about them.

The dream crusher is at it again! :rofl: More great points...

To answer the caramel in question.

It is a new blood line of caramel that has some very nice areas of paradox black on it.
Yes it is kinked, but again it is a caramel, all lines kink.

Adding some fresh new blood to out breed existing lines kink or not will only help by out breeding the actual caramel gene, not just breeding it to normals / making hets from the same lines over and over.

As for the area above the kink, that is a small cut that is healed over with a old scab on top of it. It is not a big open wound or anything that is opened up at all.
The angle of the pics might make it look worse than it is, and that could be, but it is a adult animal with excellent color and good body weight.

Far from sick and dyeing..

As for the c.h babies, they start feeding and sell just as fast as c.b babies do.
The only difference is if you get a shipment that sat to long in Africa then they can be harder, and for that reason we will not take orders of babies that have sat around.
Soak them when they come in for their first drink of water and they are parasite free and good to go.

Animals in the wild are generally very healthy (or they would all die off) its the care that they get when being collected and the care they get here that separates the good from the bad.

We make sure to give them the best care possible when they come in and they are well kept when awaiting export as well.

After all, it they only died and did not eat then there would be no balls around, let alone morphs...

Also to be clear, I never said there were not ticks in Africa, there are.
There are no mites in Africa but there are ticks.

C.H babies do not have ticks on them when they come in as they are not crawling around in the wild, or sitting in a bin with the females.

When the eggs hatch the babies are taken out for export before any ticks can attach to the eggs.

i dont know u josh but i know ur reputation. what good does fresh blood from another kinked line??? and dont say that breeding old lines together is all we do. u know it probably better than i do. every year hunderts or thousands of caramels from africa come into the states and into europe. and theyre not kinked!

paradox isnt genetic- at least so far no one proved it to be and tbh i think we never will


i dont understand that. the goal is to get lines that dont kink- why bring kinked animals in??? and then for so much money???


its the best caramel ive ever seen- hands down- that was ur text. is that a joke???

could be an ultramel... doesnt look like one to me and everybody else who posted about the add.


its an adult wildcaught kinked snake with wounds on its back. u probably have it for a week or so. i cant imagine u have it treated and feed it for month and everything is just fine...


and even if (what i doubt)- the whole idea to bring kinked animals in with the goal to breed em (as the text showed) shows what a kind of person u are...

Hi,

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Originally Posted by joe23

i dont know u josh but i know ur reputation. what good does fresh blood from another kinked line???


i dont understand that. the goal is to get lines that dont kink- why bring kinked animals in??? and then for so much money???


its the best caramel ive ever seen- hands down- that was ur text. is that a joke???

could be an ultramel... doesnt look like one to me and everybody else who posted about the add.


its an adult wildcaught kinked snake with wounds on its back. u probably have it for a week or so. i cant imagine u have it treated and feed it for month and everything is just fine...


and even if (what i doubt)- the whole idea to bring kinked animals in with the goal to breed em (as the text showed) shows what a kind of person u are...

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That's a little on the harsh side isn't it?

All caramel lines seem to kink to one degree or another so, while I agree finding a new kink free bloodline is the ideal, it probably isn't going to happen with any regularity.

It is still a possibility the animal is less closely related to someones existing animal than any other captive bred visual caramel he can find. It depends on where the animal was caught and where the founding line of his existing animal was caught - and I haven't seen that info provided with anything except possibly the sub-saharans and enchi.

But if someone is really serious about new blood they wouldn't be using another example of the same morph I would have thought simply to reduce that problem.

I wish someone with the skinny would produce a "morph map" showing localities where the founding animals and later WC examples were found - but it will probably never happen. :(

I agree it doesn't look like an ultramel to me ( though I suck at that as I have demonstrated many times ) but I suspect the comment about the looks and the price are largely to do with the fact it is a paradox as well. Only Josh knows what he meant and why he said it though.

I also agree I wouldn't breed from it either because of the kink - but if paradox had been proven inheritable I might have been tempted. :oops:

But it's also worth noting there was no attempt to deceive anyone - the fact it was a kinked WC was clearly stated and the wound was visible in both pictures. If it was purchased unseen and that wasn't mentioned then I'd be down the front waving a pitchfork with the best of em.

I have no dog in this fight (seeing as I am on a different continent ) I just thought they were points worthy of discussion.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

I wish someone with the skinny would produce a "morph map" showing localities where the founding animals and later WC examples were found - but it will probably never happen.

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Now that would be interesting...I wonder if records were kept to allow this???

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



That's a little on the harsh side isn't it?

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i just cant stand his "tactics". its not just this add. its so much ive read and heard over the years about ian and josh and outback reptiles.


look at other adds. gravid wc ghost girls with wounds on their backs for 750$.

how long does he have them that he sells em. at least not longer than two month. i think more towards 2 weeks or so.

and then sell it and the poor guy who buys it has the trouble...

so many people got screwed by them- just search the boi on fauna


i just can give anyone the advice to do some research before considdering to buy from them.


@dr del- how could u quote my old text? i mean i edited it at 7:00 and u have the qoute from the old post at 7:22- why?

Hi,

No special secret on the timestamp - I was just thinking about the post and it puts the quote in first as soon as you open the reply window.

The fact it took me a while to type it out and correct all the horrible spelling mistakes means you had time to edit it before I hit the "submit reply" button. :oops:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

No special secret on the timestamp - I was just thinking about the post and it puts the quote in first as soon as you open the reply window.

The fact it took me a while to type it out and correct all the horrible spelling mistakes means you had time to edit it before I hit the "submit reply" button. :oops:


dr del

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ah ok- thanks

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Originally Posted by joe23

i just cant stand his "tactics". its not just this add. its so much ive read and heard over the years about ian and josh and outback reptiles.


look at other adds. gravid wc ghost girls with wounds on their backs for 750$.

how long does he have them that he sells em. at least not longer than two month. i think more towards 2 weeks or so.

and then sell it and the poor guy who buys it has the trouble...

so many people got screwed by them- just search the boi on fauna


i just can give anyone the advice to do some research before considdering to buy from them.


@dr del- how could u quote my old text? i mean i edited it at 7:00 and u have the qoute from the old post at 7:22- why?

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This thread is about grab bags and grab bag babies.

If you have an issue with Josh or outback can you take it to the inquiry/feedback section or PMs? I was enjoying peoples responses on the original topic.

I just have to add that people should know what they are getting into when they buy WC animals from anyone. It's no secret that they come in from Africa and are immediately sold. That's the WC industry whether you agree with it or not. It goes back to the grab bag gamble. If someone wants to take a chance they can, and if they are too ignorant to research Outback (or any WC distributor), the snake, and where it came from that's their problem.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I just have to add that people should know what they are getting into when they buy WC animals from anyone. It's no secret that they come in from Africa and are immediately sold. That's the WC industry whether you agree with it or not. It goes back to the grab bag gamble. If someone wants to take a chance they can, and if they are too ignorant to research Outback (or any WC distributor), the snake, and where it came from that's their problem.

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ure right- thats true most of the time. but i know that many sellers at least sell just snakes that have eaten at least 3 times on their own. they dont sell 3 to 4 days old snakes like the ones in the grab bags...


or they say it and therefore sell em a few bucks cheaper.

i would suggest any newbie not to buy imports- espacially not fresh out of the egg imports that never eaten before.

thats something for people who care for snakes a few days more and know what they doing.

I figure I'll throw in another 2 cents because I kind of think the grab bags are a neat idea. I feel like if someone is naive enough to expect the next new "eye popping" morph in a 10 for $250 bag of ball pythons, they have no touch of reality.

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Originally Posted by PweEzy

I figure I'll throw in another 2 cents because I kind of think the grab bags are a neat idea. I feel like if someone is naive enough to expect the next new "eye popping" morph in a 10 for $250 bag of ball pythons, they have no touch of reality.

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Agreed. You're probably better off buying a lottery ticket and making money than off those grab bags. But if you want to do it for fun and don't mind losing money, it would be kind of neat (for someone else's time and money).