Allowing females to brood

Has anyone here allowed their female ball pythons to brood their eggs until hatching? I am very curious in the more "natural" science in any aspect, especially reproduction.
What would be the ideal conditions (temps/humidity/substrate type) inside the tubs for brooding females?
Thanks

There are a few people on this forum that do this. Do a quick search and you should find something. :gj:

There are several of us who have maternally incubated our clutches. Do a search for "maternal incubation" and you should find several of the threads. :)

From what I've read and heard others say on here, you will more likely have a higher hatch rate if you use an incubator with the right medium.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

From what I've read and heard others say on here, you will more likely have a higher hatch rate if you use an incubator with the right medium.

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I can't agree with this based on experiences of those that have attempted it on this site.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I can't agree with this based on experiences of those that have attempted it on this site.

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All I meant was that I think it would be hard to maintain the right conditions. They of course can brood them themselves as snakes have for millions of years and they do it well or they wouldnt be here.If you have the option to incubate why wouldnt you? On the other hand, you could filet a fish with a machete but it doesnt make it the best way to do it or a good idea. You would probably get more meat off the bones with a filet knife. Catch my drift.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

All I meant was that I think it would be hard to maintain the right conditions. They of course can brood them themselves as snakes have for millions of years and they do it well or they wouldnt be here.If you have the option to incubate why wouldnt you? On the other hand, you could filet a fish with a machete but it doesnt make it the best way to do it or a good idea. You would probably get more meat off the bones with a filet knife. Catch my drift.

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No, it's not hard to maintain the right conditions. It's the same conditions you've been maintaining your snake in for all its life. If you have a hard time maintaining the regular 80/90 heat and the regular humidity (like when you're using a display glass tank), then yes, this would be hard for you. But, if your snake is living in stable conditions, then it's not any harder to let them brood it themselves.

Now, those of us who attempted maternal incubation have different reasons for doing so. I, myself, went the maternal incubation route because I trusted the snake to know the proper conditions of the eggs more than me. I didn't trust that I could properly get an incubator going (too wet, too dry, too hot, not hot enough, etc. etc.). With maternal incubation, the snake does all that work for you. All you have to do is maintain the snake like you've always maintained it before.

And, about the fish analogy - for me, using an incubator would be like using the machete...

But the reality of the thing is - the debate on maternal incubation versus artificial incubation is the exact same debate as feeding frozen or live. One is not better than the other in a general sense. One is only better than the other when taking into consideration your individual situation. For some, maternal incubation is the way to go, for others, artificial incubation is it.

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Originally Posted by anatess

No, it's not hard to maintain the right conditions. It's the same conditions you've been maintaining your snake in for all its life. If you have a hard time maintaining the regular 80/90 heat and the regular humidity (like when you're using a display glass tank), then yes, this would be hard for you. But, if your snake is living in stable conditions, then it's not any harder to let them brood it themselves.

Now, those of us who attempted maternal incubation have different reasons for doing so. I, myself, went the maternal incubation route because I trusted the snake to know the proper conditions of the eggs more than me. I didn't trust that I could properly get an incubator going (too wet, too dry, too hot, not hot enough, etc. etc.). With maternal incubation, the snake does all that work for you. All you have to do is maintain the snake like you've always maintained it before.

And, about the fish analogy - for me, using an incubator would be like using the machete...

But the reality of the thing is - the debate on maternal incubation versus artificial incubation is the exact same debate as feeding frozen or live. One is not better than the other in a general sense. One is only better than the other when taking into consideration your individual situation. For some, maternal incubation is the way to go, for others, artificial incubation is it.

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Oh, ok then. No need to get defensive. Cage temps/humidity can fluctuate can they not? and what if she lays them on the hot spot and they get too hot? All Im saying is what I have heard others say on this forum and off. Oh and also the sooner you get her off the eggs and get her and her cage cleaned, the sooner you can get her back to feeding and up to wieght. And no its not that hard to keep the right conditions for your snake but I think eggs are a little more sensitive to conditions than full grown snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anatess

No, it's not hard to maintain the right conditions. It's the same conditions you've been maintaining your snake in for all its life. If you have a hard time maintaining the regular 80/90 heat and the regular humidity (like when you're using a display glass tank), then yes, this would be hard for you. But, if your snake is living in stable conditions, then it's not any harder to let them brood it themselves.

Now, those of us who attempted maternal incubation have different reasons for doing so. I, myself, went the maternal incubation route because I trusted the snake to know the proper conditions of the eggs more than me. I didn't trust that I could properly get an incubator going (too wet, too dry, too hot, not hot enough, etc. etc.). With maternal incubation, the snake does all that work for you. All you have to do is maintain the snake like you've always maintained it before.

And, about the fish analogy - for me, using an incubator would be like using the machete...

But the reality of the thing is - the debate on maternal incubation versus artificial incubation is the exact same debate as feeding frozen or live. One is not better than the other in a general sense. One is only better than the other when taking into consideration your individual situation. For some, maternal incubation is the way to go, for others, artificial incubation is it.

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I forgot to mention as well that I have a rack system with tubs and a thermostat not a glass cage thankyou. I have 18 ball pythons and 2 BCI's I dont think I have the room for 20 glass aquariums. Just thought I'd mention that since it sounds like your calling my proper care for snakes into question.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Oh, ok then. No need to get defensive. Cage temps/humidity can fluctuate can they not? and what if she lays them on the hot spot and they get too hot? All Im saying is what I have heard others say on this forum and off. Oh and also the sooner you get her off the eggs and get her and her cage cleaned, the sooner you can get her back to feeding and up to wieght. And no its not that hard to keep the right conditions for your snake but I think eggs are a little more sensitive to conditions than full grown snakes.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound defensive or anything. I was just stating facts according to my experience. Trying to give you a "first hand" account of maternal incubation to hopefully dispel any pre-conceived notions that you have about it.

And yes, the enclosure can fluctuate - that's exactly my point - the mother snake can adjust the environment within her coils to provide the optimum conditions for the eggs even when the enclosure fluctuates - to a certain extent, of course... I mean, if the power cuts out and you lose your heat and it's 60 degrees in the room, the mother can't do anything much about that. Or if the thermostat breaks and the temperature spikes to 120, the mother can't do anything much about that either (but that's the same risk with artificial incubation). Therefore, the egg can survive at less than optimum condition overall (within reason) because the mother makes the proper adjustments within her coils. You lose this flexibility with artificial incubation - because, technically, you are the mother, so it is completely up to you to provide the optimum condition for the eggs - therefore, the eggs are completely sensitive to the conditions you put them in.

I maternally incubated for 60 days and the mother snake continued to eat every 10 days the entire time. Quiet Tempest's snake did the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

I forgot to mention as well that I have a rack system with tubs and a thermostat not a glass cage thankyou. I have 18 ball pythons and 2 BCI's I dont think I have the room for 20 glass aquariums. Just thought I'd mention that since it sounds like your calling my proper care for snakes into question.

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No, I didn't at any time call your proper care for snakes into question. If you read the post again, you will notice that I mentioned glass tanks only to refer to maternal incubation as "harder to maintain". Because, generally, glass tanks are harder to maintain with or without eggs.

I have my snakes in decked out glass tanks (see my avatar). When the snake laid eggs, I moved her and the eggs into a plastic tub to avoid having to mist/add moss/etc. etc. to counter fluctuations in humidity.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound defensive or anything. I was just stating facts according to my experience. Trying to give you a "first hand" account of maternal incubation to hopefully dispel any pre-conceived notions that you have about it.

And yes, the enclosure can fluctuate - that's exactly my point - the mother snake can adjust the environment within her coils to provide the optimum conditions for the eggs even when the enclosure fluctuates - to a certain extent, of course... I mean, if the power cuts out and you lose your heat and it's 60 degrees in the room, the mother can't do anything much about that. Or if the thermostat breaks and the temperature spikes to 120, the mother can't do anything much about that either (but that's the same risk with artificial incubation). Therefore, the egg can survive at less than optimum condition overall (within reason) because the mother makes the proper adjustments within her coils. You lose this flexibility with artificial incubation - because, technically, you are the mother, so it is completely up to you to provide the optimum condition for the eggs - therefore, the eggs are completely sensitive to the conditions you put them in.

I maternally incubated for 60 days and the mother snake continued to eat every 10 days the entire time. Quiet Tempest's snake did the same.




No, I didn't at any time call your proper care for snakes into question. If you read the post again, you will notice that I mentioned glass tanks only to refer to maternal incubation as "harder to maintain". Because, generally, glass tanks are harder to maintain with or without eggs.

I have my snakes in decked out glass tanks (see my avatar). When the snake laid eggs, I moved her and the eggs into a plastic tub to avoid having to mist/add moss/etc. etc. to counter fluctuations in humidity.

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Fair enough. I suppose its just up to the breeder on how they want to incubate their eggs. I have just heard more about the positives about incubation. I wasnt trying to down on anyone that lets their snakes do the incubating, theirs nothing wrong with it in my opinion and it has worked for them for a long time.
Have a good one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Oh, ok then. No need to get defensive. Cage temps/humidity can fluctuate can they not? and what if she lays them on the hot spot and they get too hot? All Im saying is what I have heard others say on this forum and off. Oh and also the sooner you get her off the eggs and get her and her cage cleaned, the sooner you can get her back to feeding and up to wieght. And no its not that hard to keep the right conditions for your snake but I think eggs are a little more sensitive to conditions than full grown snakes.

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I've yet to have a problem with my brooding females. I have, however, had problems with incubators. I prefer to let my girls do their thing. That being said, I like to keep an incubator on hand just in case something happens and causes one of the females to abandon her clutch but I haven't had any abandoned eggs yet.

If you look into the research, maternally incubated eggs are less prone to desiccation and loss of total mass during incubation. I think that's a promising factor to consider when weighing the options.

Meant to include a link to the study I read.


http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/w...their-eggs.pdf

I'm torn on this subject. Let's keep this going and get more to share info.

I think there is a lot of misinformation readily available when people try to look into maternal incubation. I know that was the case when I let my female brood for the first time. One of the worst assumptions concerning maternal incubation is that the female will not eat while she's incubating eggs. I didn't question it because it was written in so many care sheets and care manuals and when I had offered my female a meal that first time, she refused it. I assumed that she was just following the norm and wouldn't eat. I didn't learn until the following year when I bred her again that this was all wrong. Females that are brooding eggs can and will eat but they can be just as finicky about meals as females that aren't on eggs and one refusal doesn't automatically mean that all subsequent meals offered are going to be ignored.

Last year I was offering my brooding females meals once every week. One of them ate weekly while the other two ate bi-weekly or ate rather sporadically - but they all ate while maternally incubating their clutches and didn't seem to lose any weight - if anything, they gained some weight in the process. Because they use so little energy while brooding, there is little weight loss in the process so even if a female refused all meals (or were denied them in the case of my first and ill-informed time maternally incubating) they are not at risk of wasting away to nothing while brooding.

Are your snakes brooding in a rack system? and do you offer different substrate? If my rack setup is perfect for my other snakes (yearlings, adults, etc) with my current bedding then she doesn't need a specific laying box, right? I have two females currently breeding for our first eggs ever and me and my husband are spilt on how to incubate. I was thinking about letting one mom do her thing and pulling the other clutch (fingers crossed for two healthy cluthes) and us incubating...

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Originally Posted by Wapadi

Are your snakes brooding in a rack system? and do you offer different substrate? If my rack setup is perfect for my other snakes (yearlings, adults, etc) with my current bedding then she doesn't need a specific laying box, right? I have two females currently breeding for our first eggs ever and me and my husband are spilt on how to incubate. I was thinking about letting one mom do her thing and pulling the other clutch (fingers crossed for two healthy cluthes) and us incubating...

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I keep my balls in a rack system and I like to use cypress as substrate. So long as things aren't becoming wet with condensation dripping on the snakes, I think it's an ideal bedding in tubs. I think that the rack provides them with a sense of being hidden and safe so I only use hides with my younger snakes. The adults are content to just lounge in the back of the tub.

If you want to give maternal incubation a try, I would definitely encourage it because I think it's incredible to watch the moms do what they do best and how better to learn than through experience firsthand. Just read up on everyone else's experiences - what worked and what didn't - and have a spot available in the incubator in case you change your mind or any problems arise.