New to asf, considering breeding

Hello everyone. I had no knowledge of ASFs until today. I went to the Taylor MI reptile show today and my usual guy for mice "forgot" to hold some for me so I was left empty handed. After some searching around there was one guy who had 6 very small ASFs for 50 cents apiece. I thought they were just some kind of "soft furred" mouse. I had no clue they were an altogether different species that's kinda between a mouse and rat.

First a little background. I only have a single BP. He is just a normal male and he's simply a pet. He is the most mild mannered and sweetest snake I have ever come across and my wife and I just love him like crazy. He is about 6 years old and on the small side. He tends to not want to eat rats. I typically get 8 retired breeder mice each month from the reptile show and feed him 2 a week.

I've always been interested in breeding. I know that typically breeding your own feeders for a single snake isn't recommended, but these ASF's have me intrigued. I hate the stink of mice, and like I said, my BP doesn't usually take rats. When I try rats he will usually refuse several weeks in a row until the rat is too big for him and then I am stuck with an animal I have no idea what to do with. That's a situation that I absolutely hate being in.

So from what I have gathered the ASFs are "in between" mice and rats and don't stink like crazy as mice are known for.

1. Is that an accurate assessment?

2. Since I only have 1 snake could I be successful with a 1.1 pair, or is 1.2 the absolute minimum?

3. I currently have them in my mouse holding bin which is 9x14 with the 1/4" hardware cloth as the lid. Do I need something larger? I don't care for glass as I have to lug them into the basement for cleaning. (my unfinished basement is way to cold in the winter here in Michigan to house them down there.)

4. Should I have two separate grow out tanks to keep males and females separated? It is my understanding that it takes 2-3 months for them to reach adult size.

5. I was thinking that I could try and sell excess stock on Craigslist or something. Has anyone else had success doing something like that?

This part of BP.net seems to be the most comprehensive source on ASF's I have found. And if there are any other factors I haven't considered please bring them to my attention. I will continue to dig through the threads here searching for more info. Thanks in advance for the help!

- JT

A 1.1 pair might work just fine for a single ball python. You also do not have to separate males and females of any age. The males don't fight like male mice and rats do.

Ok so I have only been breeding ASFs for a few months and this is a really good source for info but I will try to answer some of your questions from my own personal experience.

As far as the stink, I don't recognize any smell at all. I change tubs once every two to three weeks or sometimes less and still haven't noticed any smell. Others have said they have noticed a smell with theirs but I have not.

As far as 1.1 I would recommend 2.2 or 2.3 and I say that for a couple reasons. First, they colonize really bad meaning if a male or female dies and you try to introduce a new one to your breeding group they will more often than not kill the new comer rather than accepting it thus making your breeding group useless (if it's your male). Second, these take quite a bit longer to reach size so starting off you may need a few extra.

As far as tub size maybe something a little bigger but not much. Also, a lot of people have problems with them chewing so glass may be better. I have mine in mortar tubs and havent had any chewing issues yet but I do give them wood and paper towel tubes for chewing.

As far as growing tubs I keep mine all together and haven't noticed any issues. It seems to be only once they are in the breeding groups that they are aggressive toward new comers.

Finally I can't help ya much on the selling excess as I have 11 snakes to feed and haven't had any overrun just yet. Freezing them is always an option.

On a side note, watch your fingers the little buggers are bitey sometimes especially moms with babies.

Hope this helps have fun and good luck!

Thanks for the responses! Perhaps I'll keep a larger group together to ensure that they are breeding ok. I'm happy to hear the smell issue is better. The worst part of keeping mice is the stink! Just a couple mice smell so much more than twice as many rats, its crazy.

Perhaps I'll keep an eye out for some 10g tanks on craigslist and freecycle. It sounds very appealing that I can let them grow out with their parents. I'm sure after I get some experience I'll figure something out that works for me.

I've noticed one of them has really crusty swollen eyes. It seems this is a fairly common thing with these guys. Is there anything I can do? I tried using warm water on a cotton ball to wipe his eyes, but he didn't tolerate that very well. Should I separate him? I don't think I can feed him off, hes smaller than a golf ball and it seems silly to feed that tiny little guy to a 1300g ball.

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Originally Posted by jtman

Thanks for the responses! Perhaps I'll keep a larger group together to ensure that they are breeding ok. I'm happy to hear the smell issue is better. The worst part of keeping mice is the stink! Just a couple mice smell so much more than twice as many rats, its crazy.

Perhaps I'll keep an eye out for some 10g tanks on craigslist and freecycle. It sounds very appealing that I can let them grow out with their parents. I'm sure after I get some experience I'll figure something out that works for me.

I've noticed one of them has really crusty swollen eyes. It seems this is a fairly common thing with these guys. Is there anything I can do? I tried using warm water on a cotton ball to wipe his eyes, but he didn't tolerate that very well. Should I separate him? I don't think I can feed him off, hes smaller than a golf ball and it seems silly to feed that tiny little guy to a 1300g ball.

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I've bred ASFs since 2008.

For one snake, I suggest not to go more than 1.1. They produce an average of 12-15 rats every 3 weeks. This will be too much for a one-snake household.

Yes a 1.1 will be fine in a 9x14 box. They have an odor but it's not as stinky as mice.

Yes, they can't outgrow an adult ball python, so you can keep them as long as they live (they have a short lifespan of around 2-3 years).

They reach sexual maturity at around 12 weeks of age. I start separating them by gender at 8 weeks.

It is not easy to sell these things in craigslist or anywhere else. In my city of over a million people, there is only 1 guy who is successful at doing this. Everybody buys from him. If you find 1 regular customer, you're lucky. The reptile store that sells them, buys them for super cheap that it is not worth the effort of raising them unless you are a big business. You can try to find a fellow snake keeper and see if you can pool resources to raise rats for your snakes - like, you raise the rats, he buys food or stuff like that. This can get tricky.

This is what I suggest for a one-snake household:

Start by pairing all that is left of your ASFs into 1.1 groups. The first group to drop babies gets to be your breeding colony, the other group becomes feeders - separate them then. If they drop babies all at the same time, pick the colony you want, and leave the male in that colony, take the males out of the other groups while leaving the mom to nurse the babies. Note that the female rat can get pregnant on the same day that she drops babies!

Okay, it takes 12 weeks to get the rats to adult size (not sure how big your snake is) - you will have an average of 12-15 babies per litter. So, when the female drops a baby and you have more than 12 babies, separate the male immediately. This will make it so that you won't drop another litter in 3 weeks. Let the babies grow up with the mom. When they are 8 weeks old, take everybody out of the tub separate them by gender into 2 new tubs and leave 1 male and the mom in the breeding colony. They should start breeding and give you another litter within 3 weeks... that would be about 15 weeks from the last litter that you dropped giving you 12-15 adult ASFs for your snake every 15 weeks or so. Just keep doing this in cycles and you're set.

If your snake starts to go on a non-feeding mode and you start to get over-run by rats, you can hold off the next breeding by retiring your mama-breeder and separating all the genders. When the snake starts eating again, you can form a new breeding colony by putting together one virgin male and one virgin female from your collection.

Hope this helps!

Anatess: Wow thank you so much for the detailed response! Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I am glad to hear that I can make the 1.1 work. I didn't have my hopes up for selling anything, but I could at least give it a shot if it comes to it. Being careful and taking the father out when the mom drops to skip a cycle sounds like I could keep the stock at a manageable size. And, like ScottNBecky said, I could freeze any extras. I haven't had much luck feeding my BP frozen before, but I didn't try very hard and it was quite a long time ago.

I am working on a single, yet potentially problematic assumption and that is that I have a mixed gender sample. I haven't tried sexing them yet. Perhaps I should take a look into that. I recall finding a thread in here with some pictures so I'll have to find that one again.

Thanks again everyone. I've been away from BP.net for quite a while, and I'm very glad to see its still full of friendly and helpful people!

ASFs smell like marijuana, after you don't clean their cage for a while. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by jtman

Anatess: Wow thank you so much for the detailed response! Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I am glad to hear that I can make the 1.1 work. I didn't have my hopes up for selling anything, but I could at least give it a shot if it comes to it. Being careful and taking the father out when the mom drops to skip a cycle sounds like I could keep the stock at a manageable size. And, like ScottNBecky said, I could freeze any extras. I haven't had much luck feeding my BP frozen before, but I didn't try very hard and it was quite a long time ago.

I am working on a single, yet potentially problematic assumption and that is that I have a mixed gender sample. I haven't tried sexing them yet. Perhaps I should take a look into that. I recall finding a thread in here with some pictures so I'll have to find that one again.

Thanks again everyone. I've been away from BP.net for quite a while, and I'm very glad to see its still full of friendly and helpful people!

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You can tell the gender of the rat by the distance between the anus and the genital. A female rat shows a much shorter distance between the two than what you would see in a male rat.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

ASFs smell like marijuana, after you don't clean their cage for a while. :rofl:

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HA HA HA! Thats fine by me :D

yeah, I found the sticky post with the pictures I'll have a look at them this evening.

P.S.
Just some things to remember:
1.) You can't put a new adult rat in an established colony without a fight going on... that includes a rat that has grown up with the colony, moved out for some time, then put back in. Therefore, when you need a male to breed with the breeder female, you will need the male to grow up in the colony without it being separated at all. Otherwise, you will need to have to start a new colony from virgin stock.
2.) A breeder is past its prime at about 18 months old. You will notice a drop in litter-size around this time. So, you might want to start a new colony a few months ahead of time.

Again thanks for all the tips and advice! I just checked them out and based on the pictures in the sticky it looks like I have 3.3 One I am sure is a boy as his testies are starting to show. Using him for my baseline I am pretty sure that there are 3.3

So I picked up 2 Sterelite tubs that measure approximately 26x13. My plan is to have one for the 1.2 I will keep and 1 as a grow out. Can I let some of the litter stay around for a while or is it best to take them out right away?

I already have the hardware cloth and I am going to make a food hopper and a similar water bottle holder in the lid like I've seen in the stickys. That way I dont have to drill any holes in the side.

Do you think that will work or would a water bottle be to heavy and weigh down the lid too much?

Hey everyone. I heard little pips and squeaks in the cage today and was surprised to see a little squirmy pink bean in the nest! Using a glove I nudged the adults aside (surprisingly they weren't aggressive at all) and counted 7 pinks. Pretty exciting!

Now, for my issue(s). I neglected to separate anyone. I left all 6 in the tub for too long it seems. Time just flys by, but anyway. Is there an easy way for me to tell who just gave birth? Or does anyone have any advice for separating them now that I waited too long? I want to keep 1.2 as I only have a single ball to feed. ( I can also give a pink or two to my bearded dragon every now and then as well). I have a feeling I will be quickly overrun if/when the other two moms drop their litters.

Perhaps it would be best to let them all drop and then try to select the two moms who seems to be mothering the best, if I could tell that at all. And which father should I keep? I am such a procrastinator, always getting me into a bind lol.

You can usually tell who has given birth by how swollen their teets are. But, with ASFs, if there is more than 1 female they are very well known to mother each other's pups- to the point of feeding other mothers' pups as well. You could simply remove all the males (except for your predetermined breeder boy) and remove the excess females once the litter comes to age. By then, the other females may have dropped some pups as well, but leaving them all in with the male will simply continue the cycle. If you take your excess girls (and litters if they have any at that point) and put them in a tub together to give birth, they won't be able to breed again to the male but will still have the company of taking care of each other's pups.

Hope that makes sense xD If it doesn't, I apologize :rolleyes:

You mostly make sense ;) I think culling 2 of the males out will be a good first move. I still have a few mice left to feed off (I cant wait until they are gone!) and then feed off 2 of the boys. After that I imagine the other 2 girls will have dropped by then. Then I'll have to figure out which female to cull. One step at a time I suppose.

I've been trying to just observe them as I don't want to disturb them too much. The cage is in need of cleaning though so when I take care of that tomorrow I'll take a closer look at each of the females. I have a feeling my mostly brown one is the mother as she is constantly tending to the pups, cleaning them and covering them. Or maybe she is just a good mom. I think she'll be a keeper either way =)

Hmm, re-reading the post makes me wonder if I should go with 1.1 I certainly don't want to be over run, but then I think it might be safer to have 1.2 in case something happens to one of the mothers. I dunno I'll have to ponder this one for a bit.

Oops! Turns out I have 2.4 and not 3.3 like I had thought! One mom is HUGE she has to pop any time now and I see bulges on the other two. 5 of them look so much the same I must've made a mistake when I sexed them before.

4 litters is gonna be insane. Should I split them up now before they all pop? I could split them into separate 1.2 groups and just keep the group that seems to do the best job / better temperament / looks. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

When is too old to introduce them? I will eventually want to consolidate the litters into a grow out tank. I know they can go in right after they are weaned, but can also live with the parents for a while as well. When should I move my "keeper's" offspring into the grow out tank with the other litters and avoid any aggression. Thanks in advance!

I am also a bit concerned with being over run now. If the other 3 litters are smallish I might be ok, but If I end up with 40+ pups I could be in trouble!

Just a quick update. My big mama popped last night. Looks like 10-12 pups, its hard to get a good count as they are in a big pile with the older pups. I'm just happy it wasnt a huge litter. I'm going to feed a couple pinks to my bearded dragon today and that'll help trim down the numbers.

I've seen in other threads that Mike C. is all about the hog grower feed from purina. I am wanting to go that route since I am having a hard time finding mazuri lab block (and the hog feed is CHEAP!). Right now they are getting crappy kaytee brand block (6 bucks for 3 lbs, ouch!). Does it have to be Purina brand or am I just looking for something that is formulated for growth? I will be calling all the feed stores again today.

I don't know much about hog feed, but I do know that you can order straight from Mazuri. I considered it, but haven't done it yet, since I only had 2 pet rats at the time :P Majority of stores can order it in for you, if you definitely wanted to feed Mazuri. There's Harlan lab block, too, and I believe you can order straight from them as well. I've been feeding my mouse Nutriphase, which seems decent so far. It definitely isn't as fatty coated (going by texture and gloss, really) as Kaytee or most other brands. It is a mix however, with lab blocks in it. I've never had a problem with mixes, although a lot of other people claim that they pick and choose.

You can also order Mazuri from stores such as Petsmart or Petco online, and most places (if you look around the internet for public wholesalers. yes, they do exist :D) will sell it cheaper with the more you buy. Hope this helped a bit, I can provide some links if you need them (:

Thanks Starstruckk, I'll look into ordering direct, but I have a feeling shipping costs on 50lb bags wont be very pretty. I found Mike's thread on the subject and its a good read and answered many of my questions on the subject.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ters..../page9

I use Harlan's Teklad aspen shavings with our guinea pigs. We buy about 10 bags at a time from the reptile show from a local vendor for 13 bucks a bag. I've been using it for the ASFs since we have plenty of it on hand. I was also buying lab block from the breeder I buy from at the show as well, he re-packaged it into smaller bags, but I think it was harlan brand.

I'm a bit bummed I'll have to give up the food hopper I just made, but it also means less work when I make my 2nd lid. attaching the hopper to the lid with those stainless steel zip ties was a real PITA!

You can order Mazuri from any Feed & Grain store that sells Purina chows. I use 6F for all my rodents. It may take two weeks to come in so plan accordingly.

I also thought about the hog grower food that Mike mentioned but it seems that Purina makes different food in each part of the country. Right now I don't know which hog food is the one he is talking about and if I can get it in the Northeast.

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Originally Posted by jtman

I'm going to feed a couple pinks to my bearded dragon today and that'll help trim down the numbers.

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You should put the pinks in a plastic bag and pop them in the freezer to save for your beardie. Warm them up in hot water and they're fine. I do that for my baby corn snakes. Don't wait too long or they'll be too big.

Thanks for the tip JohnNJ, I may try that if I become over-run.

So my 3rd female dropped and somehow I have LESS babies. All 7 of the first group are there and growing nicely. They seem to be about ready to open their eyes and have been crawling out of the nest from time to time. The 2nd group now only has 3 pups (there were 8) and the new group is only a single pup. I wonder what happened? I need to get them sorted out soon. I fear that there was some cannibalism going on.

I picked up some hog feed from the local supply store today. Happy to get 50lbs for 15 bucks. But after I opened it I was looking at the tag and realized it is medicated :( It has Tylosin. From my short bit of reading it seems that its not too dangerous. Am I hoping I'll be fine feeding them this stuff for the time being and I'll be sure to tell the guy to get non medicated stuff for next time. Think I'll be ok?