Bumblebee's are over-rated ?

Here is my reasoning okay I love all ball pythons completely BUT the bumblebee is a disappointment its starts as this beautiful baby with bright yellow, blacks, and white then as it matures it gets ugly like the pastel morph and browns out. So I cannot justify them being worth anymore then like $200 the $500 price is insane for an animal that turns to a brown ugly adult at least with the pastels you pay a far price. What is your take on this?

thanks kindly,

Lance

The genetics are what you pay for. My thoughts: you end up with a browned-out, but beautifully patterned BP with great blood.

It makes sense that a two gene morph costs more than a single gene.

I understand the fact its 2 genes and beautiful genetics I just don't feel the price is there for the genes if I wanted a brown snake in the end I would just stick to a plain old normal. My point is I just feel there over-priced and should be in the price range of a lesser or mojave not a spinner, etc... If they kept the baby colors as adults then $500 would be a fine price. But regardless I love all the morphs I was just giving my thoughts on bumblebee's :)

lance

I'm not a big fan of snakes that brown out. but I still think the bee is a cool snake and a must in a collection. throw a fire, desert, or something that will help and keep the bee from browning out as much. look what the fire does to a pastel with the firefly.

Lots of morphs get "uglier" as they age...much like some humans...:D. A nice clean Bee is still a great animal to have in your collection...Clown's used to be my favorite morph, but most of the adult Clowns I've seen have been less than impressive...:confused:

I have seen some nice clean bee with very little browning on them. maybe there are crapy breeders out there and there stock is not so nice ect. I would love to have a bee. they are my fav

I have seen some bees that just glow when they are older. Not to mention what you can make by breeding a pinstripe to just one or alot of other just base morphs. Bee are a must have and I think they are a good price right now.

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Originally Posted by lance

Here is my reasoning okay I love all ball pythons completely BUT the bumblebee is a disappointment its starts as this beautiful baby with bright yellow, blacks, and white then as it matures it gets ugly like the pastel morph and browns out. So I cannot justify them being worth anymore then like $200 the $500 price is insane for an animal that turns to a brown ugly adult at least with the pastels you pay a far price. What is your take on this?

thanks kindly,

Lance

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Pay 200.00 for a bee pay more get a better example

Just saying
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSC_0064.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What you are seeing with the bees are over breeding of bad genetics. The market is now flooded with animals that were bred from the cheapest animals money could by. When prices came down people bought the cheapest pastel and spider they could find(usually ugly pastels) and made bees. Recently I have ever seen pastels being sold as "ugly pastels". There are some people, Nerd comes to mind, that have selectively bred bees for great color. These animals will cost you almost twice as much but as the old saying goes you get what you pay for.

Personally I go for perfection in my collection...

I don't want any morph that twists, spins, corkscrews around when I open up a tub...

If you want something that is colorful from start to finish, forget BPs and get a green tree python.

IMO brown is under-rated. There are plenty of "brown" colored species that I would pay more than a pretty penny for.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

If you want something that is colorful from start to finish, forget BPs and get a green tree python.

IMO brown is under-rated. There are plenty of "brown" colored species that I would pay more than a pretty penny for.

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This. Flashy and bright is great and all, but when everyone is striving for that, I'd rather have the subtle BP with a great bloodline. ;)

Sadly you will be disappointed with lots of morphs, most go through tremendous changes.

Now the things you do not take in consideration are

Not all Bees are created equal.

They are invaluable and make amazing other great combos.

I love my Bee. No discernible wobble, a GREAT eater that never refuses and always looks for more and also the best of temperaments. Never acts scared, shy or stressed. Never acts aggressive. As chill, relaxed and sweet as can be. You can handle her for an hour, put her in her tub and then feed her. Never misses a beat.

I find her rather pretty as well ;) Even now, around 700 gr. I have yet to see a morph that doesn't change into adulthood and either browns some, fades or "changes". I don't find them less attractive. And there are always different examples of every morph.

I also understand that people like different things. Not everyone appreciates the same morphs and everyone has "favorites" . Thats the nice thing about BP's, seems to be something for everyone.


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0432.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0451.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0289.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_4297.JPG


and if my girl ends up half as pretty as Freakie Frogs, then I'll be one happy camper.

:)

i love bees and pastels, so if you dont want one ill take them all. freakiefrog an zina i love those two bees and ill be looking and freakies page to see what he's selling

Yeah Freakie Frog has always had the most beautiful Adult Bee i've ever seen, but that is pretty rare. I see so many browned out baby bee's now a days, i would NEVER buy another one.

That being said, i owned one for about 6 months and loved him during that time, but he was from good genetics and his father was beautiful.

I agree with everyone else, if you buy cheap, you get cheap. So many people want the most for their ugly bumblebee's, but that's just the game of selling BP's.

Have you ever seen a Bumblebelly or Mojave-bee??? Just amazing!!!!

It´s the same here in Germany.
Most people want to buy the cheapest of the morph and just wondering why they can´t sell their own babies from these cheap buyed snake...
Some asked me if I´m stupid to pay 1650 € (round 2000 $) for my clown boy because the most clown males you get round about 1000 to 1200 € here. But look at him, then you will see the quality not the quantity!
But explain this to an hobbyist who want to make the fast dollar :D
And then just wonder why the prices of each morph go down to a normal price :confused:

Just my 2 cent

Toby

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

Personally I go for perfection in my collection...

I don't want any morph that twists, spins, corkscrews around when I open up a tub...

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So you're saying that all Bee's either twist, spin or corkscrew? And for that matter...if you're going for nothing but "perfection", your collection would consist of nothing but normals...Sweet! :gj:



and by the way...you're a poet, and didn't know it!

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Originally Posted by sho220

So you're saying that all Bee's either twist, spin or corkscrew? And for that matter...if you're going for nothing but "perfection", your collection would consist of nothing but normals...Sweet! :gj:



and by the way...you're a poet, and didn't know it!

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Ehh i think he was just saying he avoids anything with Spider in the genetics. At least that's what i got from his post.

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Originally Posted by steveboos

Ehh i think he was just saying he avoids anything with Spider in the genetics. At least that's what i got from his post.

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I realize that, but some people seem to be under the impression that anything with Spider in it will spin around the tub uncontrollably...which is just wrong. Sure they all have the potential for this...but from my experience a vast majority only exhibit very slight signs, if any at all...just seems to be one of those things that's blown way out of proportion...and any morph is genetically inferior to a normal...i.e...less than "perfection"...

If you think $500 is over priced then you should see what they were going for just a few short years ago... I think $500 is downright Cheap!

As for browned out snakes,Superior genetics = Superior snakes;)

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Originally Posted by sho220

So you're saying that all Bee's either twist, spin or corkscrew?

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Actually it is a pretty widely accepted fact that all spider mutations to some degree have a wobble. Whether it's just a simple head tilt or a full blown cork screw.

That being said...I still love my spiders and my bee! As stated...You get what you pay for. Do research and buy a high quality animal! And $500 is dirt cheap for a dual gene animal!

no way, bees just have so many positive genetics.

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Originally Posted by RhacHead

If you think $500 is over priced then you should see what they were going for just a few short years ago... I think $500 is downright Cheap!

As for browned out snakes,Superior genetics = Superior snakes;)

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Paid 1100 for mine 2.5 years ago and an still happy that I bought him!

IMO, most Spider morphs are way overrated. I prefer the Spider in it's original beauty. That being said, my favorite morph is the Spider Albino, which I think it's because the Albino genetics don't effect the pattern of the Spider.

But, to each their own. Everyone has varied opinions. I do think you get what you pay for though. If you want an ugly, browned out Bumblebee, pay a meager amount. If you want a Bumblebee that retains some of it's vibrant colors, get ready to dig into your bank account.

i love your bee, but that is just me.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Pay 200.00 for a bee pay more get a better example

Just saying
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSC_0064.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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this is the bee I like

Its one of those...to each his own.
I am waiting for the wife to give me the go on a pastel yellow belly female to pair with her spider in the future because I really like the bumble belly............and if I get a couple spider yellows too thats:cool:

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Actually it is a pretty widely accepted fact that all spider mutations to some degree have a wobble. Whether it's just a simple head tilt or a full blown cork screw.

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Yeah...like I said, not many are full blown cork-screwers...the vast majority have maybe a slight wobble when feeding or a slight head tilt...I've hatched several clutches of Spiders and most show almost no signs...just kind of irks me when those who choose not to work with them come off with a holier than thou attitude towards those who do...

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Originally Posted by rdoyle

this is the bee I like

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Thank you very much she's a real doll


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I respect the OP's opinion but I have to say the overriding consensus in the Bp world is simple the Bumblebee was a big part of the ball python explosion.

Are there some ugly ones out there definitely but that's the truth of many of mutations out there.;)

The wobble issue is overblown in my opinion one of mine has it but is the most calm and curious Bp in my collection. By the way some normals do it too.

Sad to say, many of the slightly less expensive morphs out there, there are poor examples, good examples and outstanding examples of each.

People just getting in to balls tend to buy whatever is cheapest, and then they produce large numbers of mid to poor quality babies, and the exceptional stuff is few and far between.

Take that big bee, that is to me an outstanding example of the morph, and I would gladly pay anywhere from half again to double the going rate for a snake like that. I saw an amazing bee at a show in December. Big female. 2000+ grams and she was nothing but yellow and white with pattern. Not a fleck of cream or brown anywhere but her pattern. Never seen one so breathtaking. The owner wanted $3000 for her. And I promise you if I had it, she'd have been mine. I don't care if two tables down there was a bigger female for half that, she SURE didn't look like that one!


Same thing with pastels. Sure I can pick up a baby pastel for under $100 all day long, some for under $75. But when I want a pastel, I want a NEON yellow pastel who is going to glow like a sun no matter how old it gets. If that means I'll spend $250 to $350 for said pastel, so be it.

Gale

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Originally Posted by lance

Here is my reasoning okay I love all ball pythons completely BUT the bumblebee is a disappointment its starts as this beautiful baby with bright yellow, blacks, and white then as it matures it gets ugly like the pastel morph and browns out. So I cannot justify them being worth anymore then like $200 the $500 price is insane for an animal that turns to a brown ugly adult at least with the pastels you pay a far price. What is your take on this?

thanks kindly,

Lance

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Lance... I love the point of view! Personally I think in the end all of these animals are worth about $150.00 each since that's about what it costs to make a Ball Python in our indoor collections. Since this subculture has been built on high prices getting lower over time there MUST be a new hot thing of value for us to sell.

Can I pose a challenge to you? Shop for an absolutely knock out Bumblebee and be willing to pay TOP dollar for it. I think you'd be surprised with what it grows up to be! I think most of what you see as a brown adult is just something that someone bought that wasn't really TOP quality!

Bumblebees have gotten better through the generations. I remember being VERY happy with the one that I bought from Greg Graziani for $25,000.00 back in 2005! Yes he has browned a bit but he's been a proven breeder since 2006 but some of his kids are KNOCKOUTS! I have some Bees that are just as bright as they were as babies and they are breeding and laying eggs.

Remember... Ball Pythons typically darken more in a breeding program. The various stresses of birth and weight loss in a female and the strain of a breeding season on a male that has to breed 5-10 females 3-4 times each!

Just my -0.02 :P

I see the op’s point there are some awful examples out there, it’s a matter of selective breeding. If you want a great bee that holds it color get a lemon bee from N.E.R.D, but expect to pay $800 or more. I personally believe that if a person is going to breed they should get the best quality healthy animals that they can and breed to improve the line. Unfortunately a lot of people for one reason or another got some subpar animals and chose to breed them. What you have to remember is that 8 years ago pastels where going for well over $1000.00 and those weren’t anything like the lemons that are being produced now, just some food for thought.

I agree with those saying crappy pastels produce crappy bees . . . you really do get what you pay for.

I don't have a bee, but I do have a (IMHO) very nice bright pastel male. I specifically went for an adult with nice color when purchasing him. I did not even look for a baby when it came to a pastel, because I knew I wanted a quality pastel that held his color as an adult. I don't mind saying I paid $175 for him either. I'm not sure if that is considered "expensive" for an adult pastel (approx. 2 years old at time of purchase), but I really don't care. When I saw his pics, I was very happy with him, and I didn't consider $175 to be out of line on cost for a pastel of his quality. And I still don't. I wanted a bright one, and sometimes you just have to pay for quality.

Here's his pic:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d.../BrightBoy.jpg
Hopefully he will produce some quality offspring in the future, maybe even some bees. ;)

Btw, FreakieFrog that bee is very nice!

I paid $350 Canadian for my Pastel(avatar pic) and I could have got a female for $100 less but I wanted to make a great bee as I love them! There are other morphs that I think are not worth the price but that's why there is so many choices out there and thats why balls are so popular! There is a morph for everyone!

In my opinion you get what you pay for. If you pay $300 for a bumblebee don't expect the adult version to look stunning. But, I have seen some BEAUTIFUL adult bees that as babies might go for $500-$600. The more expensive you go the better your adult will look IMO. Also the bumblebee combined with other morphs like the lemon blast or yellow belly look amazing! And if you buy from a breeder that has a great bloodline going the adult bees will look really good and maybe not brown out at all. All I am trying to say is you get what you pay for.

Im gonna make a thread too, stating that banana's are overrated and calling for an immediate price drop. I mean, 22k for a snake? I mean, I understand if it cleaned its own poop for 22k but if I still have to clean the poop what's the point?

Sorry you dont like bees. And they are underrated. Just like pastels. Pastels are the key to so much nice stuff it's amazing that they cost like 50 bucks. They should be the 500 dollar snake, and bees back up to like 1200.

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Originally Posted by zues

What you are seeing with the bees are over breeding of bad genetics. The market is now flooded with animals that were bred from the cheapest animals money could by. When prices came down people bought the cheapest pastel and spider they could find(usually ugly pastels) and made bees. Recently I have ever seen pastels being sold as "ugly pastels". There are some people, Nerd comes to mind, that have selectively bred bees for great color. These animals will cost you almost twice as much but as the old saying goes you get what you pay for.

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Your completely right and I agree 100% I didn't take that into consideration and now that I know that I will pay for what I want and not pinch penny's lol. Thanks for re-routing my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Pay 200.00 for a bee pay more get a better example

Just saying
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSC_0064.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Now that is worth the $500 dollars as a baby thank you for showing me a GOOD example of what a BEE should look like :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

I love my Bee. No discernible wobble, a GREAT eater that never refuses and always looks for more and also the best of temperaments. Never acts scared, shy or stressed. Never acts aggressive. As chill, relaxed and sweet as can be. You can handle her for an hour, put her in her tub and then feed her. Never misses a beat.

I find her rather pretty as well ;) Even now, around 700 gr. I have yet to see a morph that doesn't change into adulthood and either browns some, fades or "changes". I don't find them less attractive. And there are always different examples of every morph.

I also understand that people like different things. Not everyone appreciates the same morphs and everyone has "favorites" . Thats the nice thing about BP's, seems to be something for everyone.


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0432.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0451.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0289.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_4297.JPG


and if my girl ends up half as pretty as Freakie Frogs, then I'll be one happy camper.

:)

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Now that is what I want my bumble-bee to stay looking like as he or she would age. What a beautiful bumblebee who was the breeder I must know lol ?

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Originally Posted by steveboos

Ehh i think he was just saying he avoids anything with Spider in the genetics. At least that's what i got from his post.

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NO to be honest spider is my favorite morph have you seen the lavender spider incredible worth every dollar I am just saying I am disappointed with the bumble-bee morph however some members kindly showed me the better the breeder the less chance of browning out I will have now I hope they'll share the breeders names with me :)

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Originally Posted by lance

Now that is worth the $500 dollars as a baby thank you for showing me a GOOD example of what a BEE should look like :)

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As a baby she looked like this and I can tell you for a baby like this 500.00 wouldn't be close to she her value is..
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSCF6218.jpg

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Originally Posted by lance

Now that is what I want my bumble-bee to stay looking like as he or she would age. What a beautiful bumblebee who was the breeder I must know lol ?

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I got her from Justin Smith, he also goes as " bamasmith " on forums and such.

He did tell me that he has no wobblers or cork screwers in his breeding program. Now, you can get one who doesn't wobble as a baby and gets it later on, or one that wobbles as a baby and gets better with age. There are NO guarantees, but I do think its best not to breed the really bad ones, thats just common sense ;)

I'm really happy with my girl, and I also think that Freakies is a amazing example of a Bee, really unique and pretty.

To put it frankly: You're full of it.

I bought a Bumble Bee at Daytona 2010 from Pro Exotics and paid $350, which was a STEAL and this little girl is now 450 Grams, and looks absolutely gorgeous.

It helps when you know exactly what you're looking at and what you're looking for and from whom you're looking at it from. :rolleyes:

I Love Bees! If you don't, go buy a cat.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

To put it frankly: You're full of it.

I bought a Bumble Bee at Daytona 2010 from Pro Exotics and paid $350, which was a STEAL and this little girl is now 450 Grams, and looks absolutely gorgeous.

It helps when you know exactly what you're looking at and what you're looking for and from whom you're looking at it from. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

I Love Bees! If you don't, go buy a cat.

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Easy guys this thread has shed some light and changed the Op's mind a little thats all we who believe and know different should do.

07 2kg female

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...0204_thumb.jpg

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Originally Posted by alan1

07 2kg female

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...0204_thumb.jpg

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Gorgeous !! and great size, too :)

I think those greyish/beigish scales that cover the back and sprinkle into the sides actually ADD to the crazy/cool look of the Bee. It offsets the yellow nicely and together with that, the white sides, and the dark pattern over it all makes for one good looking snake, even into adulthood.