Woma Wobble? Do you have any womas with wobbles?

Now, if you had asked me last year, I would have repeated the same thing again--womas, unlike spiders, don't wobble.

Unfortunately, this year, I've produced at least 2 that do. (And one of them is my remaining male woma-lesser). Now, here's the issue--their non-woma siblings are all perfectly normal. So were they, as new hatchlings--the wobble didn't emerge until they were several months old (even older, for the woma-lesser).

The fact that it's ONLY womas, and the delay in the signs showing up, now has me wondering whether we've been wrong about them all along. Perhaps the woma mutation is much more closely related to the spider mutation, and has the same drawbacks, just in a more subdued form. The pairing that produced these animals was the same one I did last year, that did not produce any apparent wobblers, and the animals are totally unrelated. (However, last year I didn't have them here as long--I don't know what may have come up with them later).

So, now I want to know--those who actually breed and work with womas (rather than just have a single animal). Have you seen this? Not the head-instability and head-tilt seen in spiders, but the corkscrewing when exploring, and failure to quickly turn the head upright if you flip them upside down. Before you answer, go check your animals again, and really look for it. It's easy to overlook something subtle if you're not expecting it.

I'm interested in knowing how many womas you have, their ages, and how many (if any) show these signs even subtly.

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this, because if I have a bad gene in my womas, I'll have to scrap my breeding projects with them, and they're really exceptional-looking animals. I don't want to do that if it's merely a trait tied to the woma mutation, as it is in spiders. At the moment, the evidence really points to this being specific to womas, because it was a large clutch, and no other animals are affected. The fact I didn't see it last year doesn't mean much, since most of the animals left my hands before they were 3 months old. This year, I held back many animals.

So, let's see if we can put this to bed. Do womas wobble?

Very interesting. I personally don't keep Womas, but if I remember correctly...Kevin @ NERD produced a few Super Womas (pearl) that had a severe wobble/cork screw.

just so we are clear are we talking about "normal" womas or H.G womas?

^^^ That's a good point. I forgot that Kevin works with the hidden gene womas. I'm assuming the OP was talking about 'normal' womas? Hopefully I didn't cause any confusion.

They do act just like you're talking about. I've got 2 adult females and they do it too. I've seen others do it as well.

I currently have an 09 woma. I have watched her for hours, and I have never seen any signs of wobble. I have really watched to because I have seen posts that talked about this before.

*Rant*

I still don't buy into the whole it's an issue only linked to the Spider gene. What if it's a recessive flaw that is inheritable by all but is over powering in the Spider morph? What if Spider siblings over time and inbreeding can become prone to it? What if all ball pythons can become infected with it? Normals have been born with wobbles or have developed them later in life as have others.
What is really known about the spider wobble? Nothing that's what. Most ball python morphs have only been around 10-15 years. That's what, 5 to 7 generations of breeding? How long did it even take for the wobble to become public? So much is not known and so much is lied about.
Oh and by the way, the Spider is not the most out crossed morph. It was and still is inbreed a whole lot.
People need to wake up. We breeders need to become more aware of our actions and need to act more responsible for these creatures. If there is no reason to line breed, then don't do it. If you have to spend 1,000 for two visible recessive morphs or 4 hets to do a project then do it. Don't inbreed to save the money and time. We are not hurting our selves with taking short cuts. We are hurting the Ball Pythons that we so love!

Actually spiders are probably more outcrossed than most as there is no homozygous form, so there is even less reason for the spider offspring to be bred back to the spider parent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

Actually spiders are probably more outcrossed than most as there is no homozygous form, so there is even less reason for the spider offspring to be bred back to the spider parent.

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Yea yea yea, but they are still inbred. It doesn't matter that there is "no" Homo form. The reason why the Spider is still inbred is because some breeders take short cuts to get a morph faster than the next. Let’s face reality here. It's not really that big of a deal, we should all just accept it and not try to dismiss it.

I have an adult male and an adult Pastel Woma female. I also produced about 12 babies this year. My two adults, I have never really seen anything with them. As for babies, I have about 3 or 4 that do wobble. With that said, I have never seen any of them severely corkscrew or have issues righting themselves. I do have one of the wobblers that is more devere than the rest, but he doesn't really spin. He just gets very excited at the sight of food.

Put it to rest. Womas do wobble.

I also have a HG Woma, and I have seen no evidence of him wobbling or spinning at all. I only have the one though, and have not produced yet, so I have no definitive conlusion to be made on that mutation as of today.

Well, that's all very interesting.

I'm not a huge woma fan simply because I think they are the "less pretty version" of the spider in terms of their appearance, both alone and in combos. (I've seen a few that I consider really nice, but not nearly as many as spiders.) However, I was still of a mind that they were a really good alternative for those who like that general appearance but don't want to work with a snake with an inherent flaw like the spiders seem to have.

Makes me hope that there aren't any seriously disappointed people out there who deliberately avoided the spiders, and are now looking at a wobbly woma with sad eyes.

But ..... Tessada does bring up an interesting point.

I do think that inbreeding gets demonized a lot, and I will say that it does not really "cause" genetic flaws (it may uncover them, it may perpetuate them, but it does not "cause" them). (Outcrossing is good, but inbreeding isn't inherently awful, either.) I also don't think that the spider is likely to be very inbred compared to other morphs, so trying to finger inbreeding as a "cause" of the spider wobble is flawed on two counts. (I know that isn't really what you were trying to say, Tessada, just making a general point.)

However, I do wonder if she's right that we may need to start questioning the dogma that the 'wobbly' trait is a pleiotropic effect of the spider gene (inherent to the gene itself) and not a tightly linked trait (that could, theoretically, sometimes become "un-linked" in one direction or the other).

The woma thing is interesting ... I would really like to know if spiders were crossed heavily with womas early on.

Another thing I'd be interested in knowing (not to hijak your thread here, WingedWolf) is: How many people have seen spider offspring without the spider pattern, but showing spider-like neurologic issues?

I know the dogma is that the spiders are the wobblers and the offspring are normal ... But ... I'm interested to hear if anyone else has had an alternative experience.

Sorry if that post was kind of rambling ... :weirdface

I'd like to keep this thread on the womas, but would happily participate in a new thread on spiders, as I have those as well.

I don't believe that inbreeding is to blame for the spider wobble (or, possibly the woma wobble, either).
The reason inbreeding can bring up hidden flaws is because it 'fixes' traits--that is, it creates a homozygous form of the trait.

Assuming this is the case, when you breed a wobbly spider to a normal, if that spider is 'homozygous for wobbly', then you should see 100% wobbly offspring. If you take one of those wobbly offspring, and breed it to a normal, you should see 50% wobbly offspring. If you take a non-wobbly spider from that pairing, and breed it to a normal, you should see NO wobbles.
None of the above happens. Most importantly, there aren't any non-wobbly spiders that never throw wobbly offspring.
Inbreeding produces flaws the same way it produces homozygous animals from any other recessive trait.

To clarify: HG Womas are not womas. They are a different mutation entirely.
Pearls come from HG womas.

Hey,

If you do a search on Fauna Classifieds or follow this link:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=221237

I posted about the exact same thing last year. My male is a VPI Woma, and his corkscrewing and wobbling is what I would almost call scary. Both the previous owner and the producers say "womas don't wobble" - but this is absolutely untrue in my experience...

Just my 2 cents..

womas wobble ask kevin, same as spiders, they look the same act the same, do urself a favor and put them in the freezer and stop breeding them. worthless morphs both of them