Climb Suggestions?

Hi all. I want to start off by saying I've been lurking here for awhile and ya'll have been SUPER helpful! My husband and I just acquired our 1st ball python. She (we're going on the assumption that she's a she) is about 140 grams and about 22in long. We have named her Mrs. Eaves (I'm a graphic designer and its the name of a favorite typeface of mine). We have her in a 20G tall tank.

I have read 3 or 4 posts about some balls being climbers and some not. I think ours is gonna be a climber type. So I want to get her some sort of branch-looking thing to climb on. I'd like to avoid bringing something in from the outdoors as I'm afraid of introducing nasties into the tank. The closest thing I've found that suits my needs is this: http://www.bigappleherp.com/Big-Appl...c=2&category=6. What do ya'll use for those of you who have balls that are climbers? Preferably, I'd like something that had a fork on one end so I could stabilize it and then rest the other end in the opposite corner. Does that make sense? Anyway, any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Oh...and here's a pic:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2494828_n.jpg

I like natural woods from my wood turning pile. I just soak the pieces in water for a half hour then bake it in the oven for a half hour at about 325 deg F. This kills the nasties and the water reduces the burning. Wait a day before putting in the tank wood reallt holds heat.

Congrats on your new friend! You will soon realize why we are all addicted :p
With what ever you choose to use for her to climb on, make 100% sure it's stable. You do not want it to fall on her because it could seriously injure her. You and your husband, as well as us, would not want to have that happen.

Once again, congrats on your new friend. This place is an instant question answerer lol. We are always here to help you with any question you may have, big or small.

Welcome to BP.net! :welcome:

Ball pythons like many other ground dwelling snakes dont climb naturally, but will if given the chance. They are clumsy and will fall with the possibility of injuring themselves beyond your eyes inspection.

Stay away from climbing sticks as its not needed. AND Excessive roaming and trying to get ouf cage is stress related(something wrong with setup).

The java vine is not feasible for a ball python. You will notice that your ball python grows to be heavy-bodied. She will reach over 800 grams before the year is up. A java vine will not hold her up and will just be a danger for a fall.

Ball pythons are terrestrial snakes, therefore, you don't need a climbing stick for her. Lots of people use the stick to make the enclosure visually interesting - not necessarily for the snake's benefit but more for the viewer's benefit. You will need a thick, strong, immovable wood that is preferably no more than 6 inches off the ground. You can find thick sticks with a heavy/stable base at the big-box pet stores. The stick in my avatar is from Pet Supermarket.

Most of mine climb, and most of them wile away their evenings perching and falling off of things. It's really okay if they're only falling a foot or two. They're quite well padded, and I suspect wild bps spend a lot of time tumbling and sliding off of low branches. But more than 3 feet will give them a shock; more than 4 feet is potentially a health hazard.

I like all things grapewood:

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...and-manzanita/

And I like the twisty jungle vines from exo terra and zoo med. It's fun to twist more than one together, or to create big jungle gyms with the vines in combo with wood branches.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...arium-accents/

The problem with the wood is, if it gets dirty (and it will), it's hard to clean. I soak them in 10% bleach solution when they get atrocious, and then rinse and let dry for several days so that my bps aren't inhaling the chlorine vapor. But that means a.) a lot of work and b.) the branch is out of commission for a while.

The problem with the jungle vines (at least the ones I have) is that they shed little bits of plastic/rubber. I'm not sure what it is, exactly, but it gets in the water bowl, where it looks suspiciously like mites.

Whatever you get, consider getting a nice accent vine to wrap around part of it. It looks attractive, and it adds extra cover for the snake. Everyone is happy.

PS. Oh, that yellow water bowl you've got pictured there. It's very pretty, and it was the first one I bought, but mine always seems to be coated with slime (read: bacteria) after only a few days. Even after bleaching and hard scrubbing. Drives me nuts. I've basically taken it out of commission because I couldn't convince myself it wasn't a health hazard.

If you find your water bowl doing that to you, too, I recommend the blue glazed ceramic ones instead. The glaze seems to lack the microscopic crevices bacteria like to hide in.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

PS. Oh, that yellow water bowl you've got pictured there. It's very pretty, and it was the first one I bought, but mine always seems to be coated with slime (read: bacteria) after only a few days. Even after bleaching and hard scrubbing. Drives me nuts. I've basically taken it out of commission because I couldn't convince myself it wasn't a health hazard.

If you find your water bowl doing that to you, too, I recommend the blue glazed ceramic ones instead. The glaze seems to lack the microscopic crevices bacteria like to hide in.

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Or you could just buy a ceramic ramekin for $3 at walmart.

Ball pythons trying to "climb" out of their enclosures display signs of stress which often has to do with their environment. Giving them branches that lay on the ground are fine for decor, but anything that is elevated shouldn't be used on ball pythons because they are not good at climbing and will often fall. You won't see them sitting on branches, but rather roaming them in an attempt to escape.

A couple of things that could be making your little girl roam:
- Improper temps. Do you have a proper heating gradient and humidity at 60% in that tank?
- Tank size. For a young ball python, that tank is awfully big and tall and may be very difficult to maintain. Shorter long tanks tend to work better for non-arboreal species. (non-climbing)
- Hides. Log hides are terrible for ball pythons. They do not provide real security and should be replaced with small tight hides like these:
http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes/
Also, in a tank setup, it's recommended to have two hides (one on cold side and one on warm side) so the ball python doesn't have to choose between being comfortable with the temperature and its security.

It's likely not stressful, but the large water bowl is a bit unnecessary and won't raise the humidity like you think it might. You should clean out your water bowls every couple days and with a large heavy hard to clean bowl like that, it could be a nuisance. They also don't need to soak, so a small bowl like a cooking ramekin would be suitable.

-JW

As the OP stated, the BP is new and is getting used to her new home. Most snakes act like this when they are introduced to a new home.

Hey guys! Thanks so much for your responses! I guess hubby has now decided against a climb because he doesn't want her to get injured. I'm sure he'll flip flop his mind a few times so your ideas will come in handy!

(And congratulations on your new buddy! I hope you all have lots of fun.)

Have you seen that Ball Pythons in the Wild video? In Ghana? There're trees and bushes and low branches everywhere. I guarantee you the ball pythons climb and perch and fall off naturally. Just like they do in our tanks.

We're so busy claiming ball pythons are not active, and attributing "restlessness" to stress. But in the CITES study they were found to have "territories" of about an acre each. Could they be stressed... because they can't explore? In almost all other areas of snake husbandry, exercise is considered important--so important, lack of exercise leads to an increase in egg-binding in female corns.

And as my final argument in favor of climbing not always being stress-related, I give you Exhibits A and B:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1g-0d-dBQWk/TM...0/IMG_3293.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_1g-0d-dBQWk/TM...0/IMG_3301.JPG

That is not stress. That is enthusiasm.

Do you have a link to that video? I'd love to check it out.

I would 2nd a request for a link to BP in the Wild, but I'm pretty sure it's not freely available anywhere.

I'm all for BPs having something to climb that's not dangerously high, as I doubt most spend their life in the wild hiding in a 2'x3' space with a 3rd of it under a hide.

I just wanted to clarify that I'm not looking to suspend her from the ceiling or anything. I just thought she might like a little variety and I am only thinking of something maybe 6in off the ground? After reading through these forums, I'm returning my log hide and large water bowl to petco in place of a more "clean-friendly" hide and smaller water bowl. I'm also going to get a 2nd hide for her cool side. I'm going to look at the grapevine style climbs at petco as I think they have them (if I'm remembering right from my last trip) and for some fake leafy vines to make her feel all secretive ;) Thanks again guys.

I bought a small piece of what looks like driftwood from my local aquarium store. It looks nice and it seems like my little guys enjoys it. Almost every morning now when I head to work he will be chilling on his log, he loves to climb and just hang out.

I like the exo terra vines myself I use rocks to support both ends and make an arch for mine.

As to BP in the Wild video I borrowed mine from a friend but I believe it is available on line. It is not a high quality production but interesting.

I have been reading tons of articles and papers (I work in a university so we have a great library and a resident herpetologist...) and have encountered some interesting facts...

Did you know in studies studying the prey items or wild ball pythons up to 70 cm (28 inches) that an Italian research team found they fed predominately on birds? That same team considered Ball Pythons to be at least partially arboreal ? They also have been observed foraging in trees as early as 1969? I figure that if they have been found in trees, have eaten young birds, it is quite likely they climb just fine.

ref. Journal of Zoology, London, 246 1998.
Ball Pythons Barker&Barker 2006
Art of Keeping Snakes De Vosjoli 2004

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I like the exo terra vines myself I use rocks to support both ends and make an arch for mine.

As to BP in the Wild video I borrowed mine from a friend but I believe it is available on line. It is not a high quality production but interesting.

I have been reading tons of articles and papers (I work in a university so we have a great library and a resident herpetologist...) and have encountered some interesting facts...

Did you know in studies studying the prey items or wild ball pythons up to 70 cm (28 inches) that an Italian research team found they fed predominately on birds? That same team considered Ball Pythons to be at least partially arboreal ? They also have been observed foraging in trees as early as 1969? I figure that if they have been found in trees, have eaten young birds, it is quite likely they climb just fine.

ref. Journal of Zoology, London, 246 1998.
Ball Pythons Barker&Barker 2006
Art of Keeping Snakes De Vosjoli 2004

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WOW! Nice scholarly research...I' surprised this hasn't come up before (at least in my lurking). Very cool to know indeed. I know my guy and gal sure are climbers.

I use grape wood because it's nice and smooth. And, yes, it is more work keeping them clean, but bp's aren't exactly the most active companion animals, so I enjoy making the extra time to provide and maintain as naturalistic of an environment as possible. Also, although I have nothing to support this claim, it seems that providing adequate climbs would aid in building muscle, as more energy is expended when climbing.

I have been taking notes on my collection who seems to climb and who doesn't and if it seems often or not. We are all nocturnal in my house, every body is up nights. I have been finding and and my reading supports this, that the younger balls climb quite a lot where as the older of the group do not as often.

There is a lot of debate over this and a lot of that seems to stem around tubs vs enclosures. To my mind it is a silly debate, they thrive in both or can falter in both it isn't the enclosure that matters. It is the keeper. A knowledgeable, careful keeper makes for healthy happy animals, in a tub, in a tank, or enclosure. I believe any size or shape will work too. Each has their own issues and pros and cons but set up with the needs of the snake in mind and all the issues balanced by someone whom cares enough to read and learn the animal will do well. Climbing or not they don't need to climb but will if given the chance.

I have a small rack, two tanks, and 4 enclosures (well shortly anyway) So I am learning the pros and cons of them all and adapting them all to the influences of my house. I like things about each method and don't like others. But to my not a breeder, there is no clear advantage of one over the other.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

But in the CITES study they were found to have "territories" of about an acre each.

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Probably because they have to search for food as it's not dropped into their tub once a week...

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Originally Posted by jxk

I would 2nd a request for a link to BP in the Wild, but I'm pretty sure it's not freely available anywhere.

I'm all for BPs having something to climb that's not dangerously high, as I doubt most spend their life in the wild hiding in a 2'x3' space with a 3rd of it under a hide.

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I bought that video several years ago...terrible production quality but very interesting to see them in their natural habitat...if you can't find it online let me know...you're welcome to mine. It just been in a drawer collecting dust...

But aren't ball pythons opportunistic feeders, remaining in a small hide until a prey item comes within striking distance?

If roaming in the wild is to be linked with hunting, then why are there so many responses on this site claiming BPs roaming in enclosures as being stress related?

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Originally Posted by gardenfiend138

But aren't ball pythons opportunistic feeders, remaining in a small hide until a prey item comes within striking distance?

If roaming in the wild is to be linked with hunting, then why are there so many responses on this site claiming BPs roaming in enclosures as being stress related?

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This site will tell you that roaming BPs are either stressed or hungry or trying to escape.

Haha sorry for my sardonic post; just trying to make sense out of the many discrepancies read... I agree, there are multiple reasons for roaming, I tend to lean towards trying to escape most of the time...I don't think anything likes being stuck in a cage!

I discovered my guy liked to climb pretty soon after we got him so I went to the pet store in search of something versatile but easy to clean and found a Komodo habitat branch. It is bendable and really easy to clean and also I think If it did happen to fall over it's soft enough that he wouldn't get hurt. I can't find a link to a American vendor but I know they exist here but here is what it looks like.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/kom...183.dept.1804/

Sorry I never replied with the video link. Yeah, it's not free ($20.00 + S&H), and it's pretty poor quality, but very interesting anyway if you're already spending so many hours with these snakes.

http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/

I really wish somebody would do a proper PBS Nature documentary or something equivalent on ball pythons in the wild and captivity! The Royal Pythons of Africa.

(Dear magic wish-granting fairy: While we're at it, I'd also like a DNA sequencing lab, so I can sequence the ball python genome for a couple dozen morphs and figure out which of my pos hets are actually carrying the relevant genes. Oh, and a hybrid SUV that doesn't suck at off-roading but still gets good mileage. Thanks in advance!)

I keep this in my tank as one of my hides

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=2752725

It provides both a hide and climbing space. My bp likes to hide on top of it, instead of in it. But its cool, I like it, and I think he does too.

Anything that is well supported can be a climb. Just make sure it doesn't fall.

As to the why debate there are a lot of reasons why. Some of the hot arguments that always issue my opinion is from that professional and semi breeders do not take well to any insinuation that their husbandry is not the best. The all I believe use tubs and therefore cannot have any method of climbing. Do ball pythons need to climb ... NO, can they YES all snakes can. Do the climb well, some do some don't. Like people I like climbing but am not great at it, I have a acquaintance whom is a professional mountaineering guide he climbs very well.

The facts are sketchy from the wild. There have been very few real diligent studies, often it is a broad study that includes them. The other really hard item is the changing behaviour from sub adults to adults, and location to location.

The northern part of the range prey studies clearly suggest a active hunting strategy by sub adults. The only logical way to expect that young flightless tree dwelling birds would commonly find they way inside a ball python is that it simply went into a tree and found them.

It seems to me that they are a very adaptable species, there are also a lot of very old ideas that are not really true at all, many based on turn of the century ideas.

Roaming is had to pin down There are environmental reasons too hot is a common one, too high ambient temps. Stress too. But the inverse is a always hiding ball with little to no activity can also be too cold, low ambient temps, and stress. It is the pace of the movement that matters lazy non frantic movement is fine rushed frantic usually is an issue. Most of mine are out and about around feeding day and hidden for a day or two after I'll see them here and there in between.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

You won't see them sitting on branches, but rather roaming them in an attempt to escape.
-JW

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I beg to differ. My BP does use her hides often during the day, but at night (my schedule is such that I am awake around midnight-1am and can watch her or feed her before actually sleeping) she is climbing around and resting under the heat lamp while perched atop her climb, or just slithering on and off her climb. (Yes, she does have under-tank heating as well, but it didn't keep the 'hot' end at the right temperature range. The heat lamp does the trick)
I also found she /prefers/ to strike at prey from above - If I feed her in the tank, she'll first climb onto her perch before trying to strike, even if it means slithering past prey to get there.
I've even tried resting her mouse on the perch, but she'll just knock it off, then cling to a branch and strike at the mouse and eat it while suspended.

Tbh it's really entertaining to see her gripping the branch with one end, and trying to adjust her body/neck grip on a mouse to fit it into her mouth, while suspended 1-3 inches off the ground.
Like... honey, you could just slither off onto the ground and eat it. It'd be so much easier.
I've never gotten her to strike if the prey is above her in any way.

Anyway, she's much more active at night, and enjoys climbing. She almost never climbs during the day, preferring to stay in her hide(s) or poke a head out just enough to drink some water before retreating.



TLDR: I would agree with blackcrystal that daytime climbing is probably a symptom of stress, but I also think some BP like the exercise that a climbing option can provide.

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Originally Posted by Daitoshi

I beg to differ. My BP does use her hides often during the day, but at night (my schedule is such that I am awake around midnight-1am and can watch her or feed her before actually sleeping) she is climbing around and resting under the heat lamp while perched atop her climb, or just slithering on and off her climb. (Yes, she does have under-tank heating as well, but it didn't keep the 'hot' end at the right temperature range. The heat lamp does the trick)
I also found she /prefers/ to strike at prey from above - If I feed her in the tank, she'll first climb onto her perch before trying to strike, even if it means slithering past prey to get there.
I've even tried resting her mouse on the perch, but she'll just knock it off, then cling to a branch and strike at the mouse and eat it while suspended.

Tbh it's really entertaining to see her gripping the branch with one end, and trying to adjust her body/neck grip on a mouse to fit it into her mouth, while suspended 1-3 inches off the ground.
Like... honey, you could just slither off onto the ground and eat it. It'd be so much easier.
I've never gotten her to strike if the prey is above her in any way.

Anyway, she's much more active at night, and enjoys climbing. She almost never climbs during the day, preferring to stay in her hide(s) or poke a head out just enough to drink some water before retreating.



TLDR: I would agree with blackcrystal that daytime climbing is probably a symptom of stress, but I also think some BP like the exercise that a climbing option can provide.

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First post on a 5 years thread to have a conversation with someone that has not been here since 04-27-2013 :gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

First post on a 5 years thread to have a conversation with someone that has not been here since 04-27-2013 :gj:

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...yet people like me are still reading this information for the first time

I checked this thread out bc like many others it seems, have BPs that seem to like climbing despite having read that it isn't a common behavior for them. Perhaps the OP won't read it, but hundreds will afterwards...

When I take mine out of her enclosure she really likes climbing around everything. In fact right now she is up in a milk crate looking at me (don't worry, they're full of 1-gallon water bottles and aren't about to fall...). While in her enclosure, she usually becomes most active an hour or so after eating. Strikes me as bizarre but oh well, she seems fine.

For those that are newer to this forum (like me), go ahead and post to whatever you want. People will find the information useful - and if not - who cares.

:salute:

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Originally Posted by HVN_4AG

...yet people like me are still reading this information for the first time

I checked this thread out bc like many others it seems, have BPs that seem to like climbing despite having read that it isn't a common behavior for them. Perhaps the OP won't read it, but hundreds will afterwards...

When I take mine out of her enclosure she really likes climbing around everything. In fact right now she is up in a milk crate looking at me (don't worry, they're full of 1-gallon water bottles and aren't about to fall...). While in her enclosure, she usually becomes most active an hour or so after eating. Strikes me as bizarre but oh well, she seems fine.

For those that are newer to this forum (like me), go ahead and post to whatever you want. People will find the information useful - and if not - who cares.

:salute:

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As someone who just read this thread for the first time, thank you. :)