Clutch size concerning co-doms

First post ever on this forum!

OK, here's what I'm trying to find out. I'm drawn to the idea of breeding some BP morphs with co-dominant traits. Are there certain co-dominants that are known to produce larger (or smaller) clutches?

Looking forward to hanging around here often. Thanks all!

I have not heard of any that produce larger or smaller clutches. I will warn you though, there are tons of people producing co-doms. People are able to breed one co-dom male the multiple females to mass produce them. Take this into consideration before producing them. Prices fall drastically each year for this reason. Simple recessive are a little more stable, since it takes longer to produce them. Good luck either way.

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Originally Posted by Chris Knowles

First post ever on this forum!

OK, here's what I'm trying to find out. I'm drawn to the idea of breeding some BP morphs with co-dominant traits. Are there certain co-dominants that are known to produce larger (or smaller) clutches?

Looking forward to hanging around here often. Thanks all!

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First - welcome to the forum!

I am not aware of morphology determining the size of a clutch. What seems more important is the size and age of the female. If you talk to many of the larger breeders, they'll tell you that they prefer now to let their females get to three years old or older before they first breed them. The females allowed an extra year or two to mature are consistently throwing the larger clutches for them.

The females that they bred at two years old consistently throw smaller clutches. And what's more interesting is that these same females, with more size and age on them, once they are bred young, seem to continue to throw smaller clutches, versus if they were allowed an additional year or two to mature.

Remember that each EGG from a co-dom breeding has a 50% chance (if bred to a normal) of resulting in a normal baby or a co-dom baby. So you could (and I have) get a clutch of nothing but normals.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

First - welcome to the forum!

I am not aware of morphology determining the size of a clutch. What seems more important is the size and age of the female. If you talk to many of the larger breeders, they'll tell you that they prefer now to let their females get to three years old or older before they first breed them. The females allowed an extra year or two to mature are consistently throwing the larger clutches for them.

The females that they bred at two years old consistently throw smaller clutches. And what's more interesting is that these same females, with more size and age on them, once they are bred young, seem to continue to throw smaller clutches, versus if they were allowed an additional year or two to mature.

Remember that each EGG from a co-dom breeding has a 50% chance (if bred to a normal) of resulting in a normal baby or a co-dom baby. So you could (and I have) get a clutch of nothing but normals.

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Robin, I think it's just a myth to keep people behind in the game.:P I've bred females at 18-20 months with great results. I think size is the important factor when breeding. I've had plenty of females breed at 20-30 months old and have clutch sizes grow year after year. Just have to keep them feeding and feed them as much as they'll eat when they do.

Yes, I have read a lot about female breeding weight. Some have claimed breeding at 900g. I wasn't even going to consider breeding until at least 2000g, which very well might be in the 3yr range.

And I have also noticed that co-dom prices are falling. I've been working my Punnett squares with different co-doms that are also het for the same recessive trait; ie. Spider het Axanthic X Pastel X Axanthic. Even if I don't get that 1 in 16 winner, I'll hopefully have a grab-bag of hets left over.


And thanks for the welcome!

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Originally Posted by Chris Knowles

Yes, I have read a lot about female breeding weight. Some have claimed breeding at 900g. I wasn't even going to consider breeding until at least 2000g, which very well might be in the 3yr range.

And I have also noticed that co-dom prices are falling. I've been working my Punnett squares with different co-doms that are also het for the same recessive trait; ie. Spider het Axanthic X Pastel X Axanthic. Even if I don't get that 1 in 16 winner, I'll hopefully have a grab-bag of hets left over.


And thanks for the welcome!

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Hi Chris. You are on to something there. Simple recessive / codom combos are, in my opinion, the way to go. They will hold their value better than codom / codom combos, and still be a lot easier to make than simple recessive / simple recessive combos. I also think that the codom / simple recessive hets would be worth a lot more, and hold their value better than simple recessive hets alone. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I felt like I was on to something! The only thing is, it is proving to be slightly difficult to find ready made simple recessive/co-doms. I might have to make them...

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Originally Posted by Chris Knowles

I felt like I was on to something! The only thing is, it is proving to be slightly difficult to find ready made simple recessive/co-doms. I might have to make them...

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That is an option, and the cheaper way to go. The only problem is that it is time consuming. Adult morph females are fairly expensive too, especially if they are het simple recessive. Your best option is buying almost breedable females and a simple recessive male to breed to them. Females can breed around 1200+ grams, so you may want to look for ones that are near 800 or 1000 grams. Put some weight on them before next breeding season. Make sure the male is at least 700 grams by breeding season to be sure he will go for you. Just something to consider. Good luck.

I hear alot of people have misconceptions on recessives holding there value compared to co-doms. I actually believe it to be the opposite. When comparing Pastels to Albinos it may seem that the Albino held its value longer than the Pastel. Except for the fact that the Pastel is just a visual Het and the real comparison is the Super Pastel to the Albino. I believe to this day a Super Pastel will sell for more than an Albino. It is also much easier to sell a "visual het" than to sell Hets that appear to be normals.

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Originally Posted by Python Dreams

I hear alot of people have misconceptions on recessives holding there value compared to co-doms. I actually believe it to be the opposite. When comparing Pastels to Albinos it may seem that the Albino held its value longer than the Pastel. Except for the fact that the Pastel is just a visual Het and the real comparison is the Super Pastel to the Albino. I believe to this day a Super Pastel will sell for more than an Albino. It is also much easier to sell a "visual het" than to sell Hets that appear to be normals.

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You have a point, but at the same time look at het super pastel (pastel) prices now compared to what they were five years ago. People are pretty much giving them away now.

But do Pastels sell easier then Het Albinos? I would think so... Do they sell for more than Het Albinos? I thinks so.... How much were Het Albinos five years ago?

I have quite a few Pastel 100% Het for Albinos from Super Pastel Albino breedings. At the shows I have been to, I have had just about 0 interest. One girl wanted a Pastel and said mine was better looking, but did not want to pay extra (I had a very decent price). It not only takes money to buy the snake, but you have to put trust into another breeder when you buy hets, and we have seen plenty of people take advantage of that. To add about visual recessives, I had no problems moving my Pastel Albinos. Just my experience.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Robin, I think it's just a myth to keep people behind in the game.:P I've bred females at 18-20 months with great results. I think size is the important factor when breeding. I've had plenty of females breed at 20-30 months old and have clutch sizes grow year after year. Just have to keep them feeding and feed them as much as they'll eat when they do.

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i posted a thread about an in depth study of ball python populations in Ghana a while back, part of the study was measuring and weighing females who had produced eggs and were incubating them. The results showed females were between 1200_1800 grams with many of them below 1500 grams (if i remember correctly). I know it is a wild study and the pythons are just doing what instictivley comes to them so are reproducing sooner, but it shows at what size females can produce eggs successfully. And i believe more eggs would come with age and size, thats just nature doing what nature does best.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

You have a point, but at the same time look at het super pastel (pastel) prices now compared to what they were five years ago. People are pretty much giving them away now.

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On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

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Originally Posted by ms381

i posted a thread about an in depth study of ball python populations in Ghana a while back, part of the study was measuring and weighing females who had produced eggs and were incubating them. The results showed females were between 1200_1800 grams with many of them below 1500 grams (if i remember correctly). I know it is a wild study and the pythons are just doing what instictivley comes to them so are reproducing sooner, but it shows at what size females can produce eggs successfully. And i believe more eggs would come with age and size, thats just nature doing what nature does best.

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So are you saying that those females that produced at 1200 grams would produce larger clutches with size and age....or that they should be given more time to grow to produce larger clutches later on. I believe it balances out and the number of eggs when bred early will equal to those that are not bred until 3 years.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

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I agree.....if it's a quality pastel. Quality will always sell, and at a higher price. We recently sold a femal super pastel for 2X market value because it's the nicest super pastel we have ever seen. As the old saying goes....you get what you pay for.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Robin, I think it's just a myth to keep people behind in the game.:P I've bred females at 18-20 months with great results. I think size is the important factor when breeding. I've had plenty of females breed at 20-30 months old and have clutch sizes grow year after year. Just have to keep them feeding and feed them as much as they'll eat when they do.

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Hi, how heavy is your female at 18-20 month old and at 20-30 month old? And their clutch size? TIA.

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Originally Posted by ace_singapore

Hi, how heavy is your female at 18-20 month old and at 20-30 month old? And their clutch size? TIA.

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2003 Het Pied first breeding in 2005 at roughly 20 months(all clutches had large eggs.)
2005 @2800-3000 grams=9 eggs
2006 @3000-3200 grams=8 eggs
2007 @3500 grams=9 eggs
2008 @4000 grams=11 eggs
2009 @5000 grams=13 eggs
2010 @5000-5500 grams=13 eggs 1 slug

2005 Pied first breeding in 2008 at 30 months
2008 @1600 grams=5 eggs
2009 @1800-2000 grams 6 eggs
2010 @2000 grams 6 eggs

2006 Pewter first breeding in 2008 at 20-24 months
2008 @1200-1400 grams=5 eggs
2009 @1600-1800 grams=7 eggs
2010 @2000-2200 grams=8 eggs

2008 Pastel het Pied first breeding 2010 at 18-20 months.
2010 @1200-1400 grams=5 eggs

2008 Pastel het Pied first breeding 2010 at 18-20 months.
2010 @1200-1400 grams=3 very large eggs.

I'll go through my records and see what else I can find. I have a couple of Pewter het Pied girls from 2009 I'm thinking of trying this year. They are right at 1000 grams now. It may be late in the season though. I'm interested in seeing what results others are getting.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

2003 Het Pied first breeding in 2005 at roughly 20 months(all clutches had large eggs.)
2005 @2800-3000 grams=9 eggs

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Was your 0.1 Het Pied power fed to be 2800g in 2 years?

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Originally Posted by Chris Knowles

Was your 0.1 Het Pied power fed to be 2800g in 2 years?

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Not one bit. Everything is fed one rodent per week. If there are any leftovers, the larger females get another if they want it. Though I don't believe you can power feed growing babies. They eat to survive.

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Originally Posted by Python Dreams

But do Pastels sell easier then Het Albinos? I would think so... Do they sell for more than Het Albinos? I thinks so.... How much were Het Albinos five years ago?

I have quite a few Pastel 100% Het for Albinos from Super Pastel Albino breedings. At the shows I have been to, I have had just about 0 interest. One girl wanted a Pastel and said mine was better looking, but did not want to pay extra (I had a very decent price). It not only takes money to buy the snake, but you have to put trust into another breeder when you buy hets, and we have seen plenty of people take advantage of that. To add about visual recessives, I had no problems moving my Pastel Albinos. Just my experience.

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Yes, pastels do sell for more than male het albinos, but around the same price as females hets. But then again, it is easier / cheaper to reproduce pastels than it is albinos from a het. It just seems to me that so many people are mass producing pastels, that they are hard to sell unless you lower your price. Why would someone buy from x breeder for x amount when they can get it for cheaper buy hundreds of other breeders? I predict this to happen to every codom morph, eventually. Their prices have been dropping drastically, and I can see why. Supply and demand. They are too easy to mass produce.

I am surprised that you did not have any interest in your pastel het albinos, unless they were males. I sold all of my pastel het ghost females very quickly, but no one was interested in the males. This is for the same reason is it is tough to sell het males for anything but normal prices. There is no use for them. You have much better odds of producing a visual by breeding a visual to a het. Since one male can breed multiple females, it only makes sense to breed one visual male to multiple het females. It is more cost efficient this way.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

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I have heard this argument before, and it does make sense. However, this is not always the case. There are so many people out there that think about money before the quality of the animal before purchasing. They want a pastel, but want to find the best deal. Many people are not willing to pay extra for a better looking pastel. Now this may be different for higher priced morphs, but not normally for pastels because they are too easy to acquire. So many people are breeding them.

In my opinion, the only way to make money on pastels is to create combos with then, and visual simple recessive / pastel are going to hold their value a lot longer than codom / codom combos.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Not one bit. Everything is fed one rodent per week. If there are any leftovers, the larger females get another if they want it. Though I don't believe you can power feed growing babies. They eat to survive.

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From my experience, it would be very tough to power feed a ball python. They are finicky eaters as it is. They will eat when they want to, and will go off feed when they don't. In my opinion, it is best to keep them on a regular weekly diet, and feed them extra each week if they want it. I always feed my ball pythons nothing larger than a small rat each week, since I feed them all live.

I have done almost 0 advertising online for the Pastel Het Albinos, so I do have to take responsibility for them not selling. I was just using my experiences at shows as an example.

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In my opinion, the only way to make money on pastels is to create combos with then, and visual simple recessive / pastel are going to hold their value a lot longer than codom / codom combos.

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I dont know if that is exactly true, but the cool thing about Ball Pythons is that everyone has their own strategy. I agree that combos are the only way to make money in this industry unless you have something very rare (Candy, Banana, etc...)! I just think at the end of the day, co-doms and their combos will make more profit, with less work.

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Originally Posted by Python Dreams

I dont know if that is exactly true, but the cool thing about Ball Pythons is that everyone has their own strategy.

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Best words spoken or typed I MUST say!!

I don't want steer this away from the original topic but I think all breeders need to stop crying over a up and down market. Just learn to adapt like a camel and weather the drought. Better market yourself, better quality animals, better pricing, and create a working formula for yourself without living out of your means. I mean it really is getting old from big guys to the little guys.

Back on topic>>> these words are via wikipedia using the first line from Tracy & Dan Barker of VPI Libraries of books as well as the EMG himself Kevin McCurly of NERD and all of which I find interesting:

Oviparous, with anywhere from 3-11 rather large, leathery eggs being laid (4-6 being most common).[4] These are incubated by the female under the ground and hatch after 55 to 60 days. Sexual maturity is reached at 6–18 months for males, 12–36 months for females. Age is only one factor in determining sexual maturity and ability to breed – weight is the second factor. Males will breed at 500 grams or less, but in captivity are often not bred until they are 800 grams (1.7 lbs.), and females will breed in the wild at weights as low as 800 grams, though 1200 grams or more is most common--in captivity, breeders generally wait until they are no less than 1500 g (3.3 lbs.). Parental care of the eggs ends once they hatch, and the female leaves the offspring to fend for themselves

So in my eyes apply a little logic, discretion, trial & error, create a strategy and formula that works for you. I recommend following others breeding records like RDR, HeatherHerps, etc... they actually blog with fine details, ages sometimes, almost allowing you to feel like you are in on their projects. Which builids some anticapation for followers.

:rage: I'm finished ranting and raving lol.

-The Evil Minion