Breeding a spider with a severe wobble

She's still a hatchling, but I had high hopes for her before I noticed the wobble. I fully intend on keeping her, but I wonder about her future prospects as a breeder.

Is the spider wobble something that will increase in severity in her offspring? She eats great and handles well, but she is a bit loopy in her tank.

I would say its a guessing game. Thats one thing though that you dont want her young to carrry. The wobble though could decrease with age also though. When I had my spider male he didn't have one at all when I got him as a hatchling but at about 6 months his got real bad and he ended up dying from sever neurological disorder, he couldn't stop flipping on his back so I had to have him put down at the vet, couldn't leave him suffering. So with spiders you truly never know what your going to end up with.

You can breed a wobbling spider.
Some people say that a wobbler can throw non-wobblers, some people say that all spiders wobble, some say a wobbler must throw wobblers.

This thing you would want to think about it that if you breed her and you are ready to sell a baby who looks fine, are you willing to show the wobbling parent snake to the buyer PRIOR to accepting money? Would you want to buy a baby after seeing a parent that was a severe wobbler? Or would you pass and go to a different one?

Even with people saying that all spider wobble at least some, I don't think I would breed a severe wobbler. In fact, I do have a VERY serious wobbler that won't be bred ever. If it was very very mild.. maybe.. maybe not. I think it's a individual decision based on what the snake looks like when they are breeding size.

It is in theory that all Spiders have, or are highly susceptible to "The Wobbles".
But it has not been proven that breeding one results in more "wobblers", in fact, most experiments I've seen have around the same ratio of "wobblers" as regular Spiders... but then again this is all in theory and there is no validation to it yet, so it will be a risk. It just depends if you are willing to take that risk. :(

first of all im new to the python world and im curious bout this wobble thing, i do like the looks of the spiders and have been interested in gettin one, but im holdin off because of the wobble..can anyone tell me wher it comes from and kinda describe what it looks like, is it as simple as head movement or is it in their body?

justin

it can be slight to major. Them swaying their head back and forth to almost spazam like

I think best description was they look drunk. Some look slightly tipsy.. some are falling over trying to find the floor. I think I have a video of mine somewhere.. I should take a new one.

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Originally Posted by floridayank22

first of all im new to the python world and im curious bout this wobble thing, i do like the looks of the spiders and have been interested in gettin one, but im holdin off because of the wobble..can anyone tell me wher it comes from and kinda describe what it looks like, is it as simple as head movement or is it in their body?

justin

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Here is a good example of a border line major example. However major wobbles in Spiders is pretty rare, so I wouldn't hesitate to get one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQmiywlaJk

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Originally Posted by LeviBP

Here is a good example of a border line major example. However major wobbles in Spiders is pretty rare, so I wouldn't hesitate to get one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQmiywlaJk

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think best description was they look drunk. Some look slightly tipsy.. some are falling over trying to find the floor. I think I have a video of mine somewhere.. I should take a new one.

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Originally Posted by Paradox81

it can be slight to major. Them swaying their head back and forth to almost spazam like

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thx for the info yall, made me feel alot better bout gettin one

justin

I'm probably getting one in the next week or so.. fingers crossed as well.. :)

I have been breeding my male spider for 4 years now. He was the first bp I bought cause I wanted a bee and wanted to make it myself. I did our first year. He does wobble. The wobble in the spider gene has never bothered me. I have a lot of his babies from spiders to bees. Some wobble slight, some not at all, and some a little more. Most get better the older they get. The spider gene is my favorite to put into other morphs and always will be. You have to decide for yourself how bad the wobble is and if the animal can breed at no risk to itself.

Dude.. after watching some videos on wobbles makes my bee look like nothing!! Mine has no issues at feeding time, doesn't do the head shake, doesn't move much at all when it "wobbles" and 99% of the time he is normal. he has a slight head tlt now and then, and once in a blue moon starts looking up and goes back wards for a sec.. then straightens out and is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlX58vxt0AU&NR=1

That was is bad! :O:O

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

Dude.. after watching some videos on wobbles makes my bee look like nothing!! Mine has no issues at feeding time, doesn't do the head shake, doesn't move much at all when it "wobbles" and 99% of the time he is normal. he has a slight head tlt now and then, and once in a blue moon starts looking up and goes back wards for a sec.. then straightens out and is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlX58vxt0AU&NR=1

That was is bad! :O:O

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Yah, I saw this video a few times.. crazy stuff.. You see this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGy4g1qJdpo funny though once it was locked on it was a direct blow..

man feeding my spider for the first time was a mess!! He wouldn't take F/T and was coming out of an RI (that he had when I bought him) so we got him a live small rat. Strike and miss and thumped his little head on the back of the tub and then started striking at anything that moved (which happened to be me) good thing I was far enough back. Charlie sits with his head tilted to the right almost always and get's a little corkscrewy when he's being held but seems to do fine when he's slithering around on a surface.

We do plan on breeding him (if he'd ever make a move on Big Momma)

See, i love spiders, but i so wish that 1 male was never discovered tbh ..... i have 0.2 spiders, 1 who is amazingly light, very high white sides, perfect example, with a MAJOR wobble. i have a wickedly dark poss het clown spider female who has 0 visible wobble at all, even when feeding (im not saying she never wobbles, just that i havnt seen it)

i wont ever breed the wobbler, she will stay here for the rest of her life, but even though my other spider has 0 wobble, im still gonna be weary of what i breed her too.

This debate will go on and on as long as spiders and their crosses exist.

All spiders wobble. All spider crosses wobble from degrees of barely noticealbe (those owners often swear that theirs do not wobble, though they do display head tilts in many photos those same owners post) to full train wrecks. It cannot be bred out, and the severity of wobble passed on is as random as the high vs. low white randomness in pieds.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

This debate will go on and on as long as spiders and their crosses exist.

All spiders wobble. All spider crosses wobble from degrees of barely noticealbe (those owners often swear that theirs do not wobble, though they do display head tilts in many photos those same owners post) to full train wrecks. It cannot be bred out, and the severity of wobble passed on is as random as the high vs. low white randomness in pieds.

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Why is this trait particular to spiders? Is it an unforeseen and unwelcome result of breeding for the morph?

I realize that some people see snakes as pets, and some as profit. I'm sure some see them as both things. But is it ever ethically justifiable to allow a species sub-type to develop neurologic deficiencies that are a direct result of breeding for profit (or vanity?)

I'm not making a moral judgment here. But if the mutations caused by selective breeding for morphological variants are causing functional disorders, shouldn't we be asking ourselves whether we are justified in continuing to perpetuate any variant that begins to develop those disorders?

Or are they, after all, just reptiles?

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Originally Posted by eracer

Why is this trait particular to spiders? Is it an unforeseen and unwelcome result of breeding for the morph?

I realize that some people see snakes as pets, and some as profit. I'm sure some see them as both things. But is it ever ethically justifiable to allow a species sub-type to develop neurologic deficiencies that are a direct result of breeding for profit (or vanity?)

I'm not making a moral judgment here. But if the mutations caused by selective breeding for morphological variants are causing functional disorders, shouldn't we be asking ourselves whether we are justified in continuing to perpetuate any variant that begins to develop those disorders?

Or are they, after all, just reptiles?

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The reason all spiders have it, is because the ONLY original wild caught animal had it. I believe NERD brought it in. It was a male. There has never been another spider found and brought into the US.

The wobble has nothing to do with inbreeding, the spider is one of the most outcrossed morphs out there because there is no visually different super form of the gene.

I currently have two spiders. One with a more severe wobble than the other. They are two sisters, so 100% related. Guess which one is the better eater? The one with the more apparent wobble and the head tilt.

These animals do thrive. Spiders have been some of the best eaters and growers in my collection (on a regular spaced diet). I choose to keep spiders because they are my favorite base morph. Looking at them makes me very happy, and especially handling them and seeing them eat and shed and grow.

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Originally Posted by eracer

Why is this trait particular to spiders? Is it an unforeseen and unwelcome result of breeding for the morph?

I realize that some people see snakes as pets, and some as profit. I'm sure some see them as both things. But is it ever ethically justifiable to allow a species sub-type to develop neurologic deficiencies that are a direct result of breeding for profit (or vanity?)

I'm not making a moral judgment here. But if the mutations caused by selective breeding for morphological variants are causing functional disorders, shouldn't we be asking ourselves whether we are justified in continuing to perpetuate any variant that begins to develop those disorders?

Or are they, after all, just reptiles?

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Just as cinderbird said, the wobble is not a result of breeding, it is just part of what makes a spider a spider.

The original spider wobbled and every spider decendent wobbles.

There will always be some who choose not to work with spiders as a result, and others of us who believe the wobble does not affect the animal's quality of life.


Sent from my HTC Droid Incredible using Tapatalk.

i'm no breeder (nor do i have any snake breeding knowledge) but i can say that i could not knowingly breed anything that has any kind of defect.

The wobble is most likely inherent to whatever genetic mutation causes the spider appearance. The same protein defect or malformation or what have you that causes the pattern to be altered also causes the neurologic disorder, in all likelihood. It is also possible that the two genes are tightly linked, and that they are two different genes, but can never (or almost never) be separated.

If the latter were the case, then if a different individual founder spider had been discovered in the wild, it's possible that the defect may not exist. If the former is the case, however (if the defect is inherent to the mutation itself), then any spider found would have had the defect.

Breeding certainly did not cause the neurologic disorder. It does, however, perpetuate it.

To the OP, I would not breed a spider with severe neurologic signs. Conventional wisdom states that the "disorder" part of the spider gene exhibits variable expressivity, which means that some spiders will have it really bad and some will be barely noticeable. This has been proven to be true; however, I'm not entirely convinced that it has to be. I think that it may be possible to "fix" the mode of expression of genes with supposedly "random" expressivity through generations of careful selection.

I base this mostly on two things ... One is that, in various livestock breeds, there are pattern types that are "fixed" into a breed, like the white belt in belted Galloway cattle or the "medicine hat" in certain paint horses. I believe that many of these pattern types are fixed variants of a "piebald" type pattern that would otherwise be expressed randomly, as in our piebalds. (And yes, I do believe that, with many generations of line breeding, it would be possible to fix lines of high or low white pied ball pythons.)

The other thing I base it on is that, in my simple way of thinking :P , the way in which these "random" genes are expressed has to be controlled by something. NOTHING in nature is truly random. If you break it down, it could pretty much either be genetic, or environmental (right? Or am I forgetting something obvious?). Since different individuals in a clutch will all exhibit different levels of expression, I don't think it is environmental. I think it's entirely possible that it could be genetic, and if it's genetic, it could be selected for. ("It" being those modifier genes that are otherwise "silent," but that influence the expression of another trait.)

So I guess my line of thinking goes like this: The spider gene is fantastically popular, and no matter how many people decry the breeding of all spiders as unethical, the gene is everywhere, it's in a zillion combos, and it isn't going to go away any time soon. However, we as breeders still have a responsibility to the heath and welfare of these animals. In my mind, therefore, even though I can't prove that the "wobble" can be bred out, I think it's worthwhile to at least try and select for animals without severe neurologic signs in an effort to try and improve the "breed" (morph) -- since I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon.

Is my logic flawed? Yeah, woefully so ... But there it is for ya.

I agree.. if all breeders do NOT breed spiders that have severe wobble and check the next generation of clutches and only breed the spiders from that clutch that show no or little wobble and keep this going we may end up with spiders that DO NOT wobble.

but if we keep breeding these severe cases we KNOW that that will be passed along to some of the babies, and this keeping the wobbles going!

I would like to film my bee eating and film the only sign of wobble IF I can catch it so I can SHOW any potential buyers of my spiders or spider morphs what the father has so there is no question if I'm lieing about the wobble or not. This way any potential buy can know that the parents of there snake is not one like those video's!

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Originally Posted by mommanessy247

i'm no breeder (nor do i have any snake breeding knowledge) but i can say that i could not knowingly breed anything that has any kind of defect.

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All Ball Python Morph's have a "defect"..it's what makes them look different..So to say you couldn't knowingly breed anything with a defect is your choice but it means you'd need to steer clear of all morphs all together.
:gj:

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Originally Posted by Paradox81

I would say its a guessing game. Thats one thing though that you dont want her young to carrry. The wobble though could decrease with age also though. When I had my spider male he didn't have one at all when I got him as a hatchling but at about 6 months his got real bad and he ended up dying from sever neurological disorder, he couldn't stop flipping on his back so I had to have him put down at the vet, couldn't leave him suffering. So with spiders you truly never know what your going to end up with.

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Kind of hard to die from a sever neurological disorder if a vet puts the animal down. That is putting out erroneous information by making that statement. The Spider died because you didn't want it any more. I have seen serious train wrecks that do just fine.
just my :2cent:

A spider with severe wobble can throw spiders with little wobble and spiders with little wobble can throw spiders with severe wobble. It's all a roll of the dice. Every spider has wobble so if someone says "my spider doesn't have wobble" they haven't looked at their snake close enough. I say breed her. Unless she has a wobble that makes her corkscrew out of control, there's no reason not to breed her.

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

I agree.. if all breeders do NOT breed spiders that have severe wobble and check the next generation of clutches and only breed the spiders from that clutch that show no or little wobble and keep this going we may end up with spiders that DO NOT wobble.

but if we keep breeding these severe cases we KNOW that that will be passed along to some of the babies, and this keeping the wobbles going!

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Except the wobble doesn't work this way. The problem is that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are CONNECTED. If you have one, you have the other. There is no option for separation (ie selectively breeding the wobble out).

Breed a "low wobble" female spider to a male pastel, you get some bumblebees and spiders that wobble a lot, possibly going as far as to label them trainwrecks. What do you do with those babies? Keep them? euthanize them? Sell them?

Maybe one of the babies from that scenario is another "low wobble" animal. Its a male. You breed it to 3 females , lets say a normal, a pastel and a pin. You end up with some low wobblers and some medium wobblers and some high wobblers. What do you do with the babies?

There just hasn't been a way to separate the two.

I read a wonderful article, or heard something on reptile radio about how melanin production is linked to neurological disorders. (See also jaguar carpet pythons, like spider balls they have reduced melanin.) I'll see if i can find the article.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

Except the wobble doesn't work this way. The problem is that the spider gene and whatever causes the wobble are CONNECTED. If you have one, you have the other. There is no option for separation (ie selectively breeding the wobble out).

Breed a "low wobble" female spider to a male pastel, you get some bumblebees and spiders that wobble a lot, possibly going as far as to label them trainwrecks. What do you do with those babies? Keep them? euthanize them? Sell them?

Maybe one of the babies from that scenario is another "low wobble" animal. Its a male. You breed it to 3 females , lets say a normal, a pastel and a pin. You end up with some low wobblers and some medium wobblers and some high wobblers. What do you do with the babies?

There just hasn't been a way to separate the two.

I read a wonderful article, or heard something on reptile radio about how melanin production is linked to neurological disorders. (See also jaguar carpet pythons, like spider balls they have reduced melanin.) I'll see if i can find the article.

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Exactly - and like I said earlier in this thread - the degree of wobble is as random as the degree of white on a pied.

You can have a low white pied throw high white pieds, and vice versa.

Same with spiders. You can have minimalist wobblers throw train wrecks and train wrecks throw spiders with barely detectable wobbles.

If the wobble could have been selectively bred out of the spider and all spider combos, it would have been done already.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If the wobble could have been selectively bred out of the spider and all spider combos, it would have been done already.

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You think so? After a whopping few dozen generations of breeding at most (probably far fewer in reality, despite the spider being one of the most prolific mutations)? It takes many generations to "fix" a polygenic trait like the genes controlling how much a spider wobbles could potentially be ... Not to mention the fact that AFAIK, no one is really actively trying to breed it out. No one has a breeding program specifically dedicated to trying to eliminate or temper the trait. Somebody may breed one "no-wobble" spider or two, but then they get one or two "train wrecks" out of it, get discouraged and give up.

I am aware that the wobble is either a pleiotropic effect of the spider gene, or so tightly linked that it may as well be. So I do doubt that you can ever get rid of it entirely. But would it be theoretically possible to selectively breed spiders that minimally express the "wobble" part of the spider gene? I think so ... But it sure isn't likely to happen any time soon, maybe ever, especially if conventional wisdom keeps telling people that it's okay to breed "train wrecks" because the gene is "random." :rolleyes:

I don't know if this really could work at all ... To my knowledge, "it" (trying to minimize the deleterious effects of a gene by selective breeding) hasn't really been tried before in animal breeding. In most mammal breeds, if you've got a defect, you try and just breed it out and eliminate the bad gene entirely. With spiders, we can't do that, because the bad gene IS the good gene. So if we want the bad to go away, we'd have to work on modifying the other genes that control the "bad" expression.

I think of it like selectively breeding for any other trait ... Take the yellow in pastels. The yellow is a trait inherent to pastels, but clearly there are other genes controlling how much it's expressed. You can select for those genes and breed brighter and brighter pastels over generations ... Or you can say, "Well, I think it's all random" (like I believe was done when the morph was first getting off the ground, in order to sell the ugly ones) and keep getting ugly pastels.

BTW, I hope this post didn't come off as confrontational ... I'm not trying to be argumentative, because this is all speculation. However, I do kind of hope to dissuade people from breeding "train wreck" neuro snakes if possible. It is well and entirely possible that I am wrong, and that the degree of expression of neurologic derangement in spider ball pythons is determined by factors that cannot be selected for or against. However, even if there's the slimmest little chance that I'm right ...... It'd be worth not breeding a "train wreck" and keeping those "bad" modifier genes in circulation.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Kind of hard to die from a sever neurological disorder if a vet puts the animal down. That is putting out erroneous information by making that statement. The Spider died because you didn't want it any more. I have seen serious train wrecks that do just fine.
just my :2cent:

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First off the only reason I put him down is because he could not eat anymore. Even with assist feeding he was throwing it back up, dont you tell me I didn't want it anymore when you dont even know me. I believe in a quality of life, and spend the rest of your life in the state he was in..in my eyes in wrong.

Oh these threads are really frustrating. As Robin and cinderbird stated....ALL spiders have a degree of wobble or corkscrew. It is usually more when they are stressed or excited. As well as sometimes it comes and goes. There is NO NO NO proof or experience that shows a bad wobble with throw a bad wobble. Quite the opposite we have seen bad wobblers throw low wobbs and vice versa.

The bottom line is that the spider gene is instrumental in so many amazing morphs ...you accept it and learn to love the other qualities it has.

I guess my feeling is, if there is even the slightest, most remote chance that the neurologic derangements can be selected against, then we as breeders have a responsibility to try. To throw in the towel after one or two generations of failed attempts at selecting against it and just say, "Oh well, it's random, ya might as well breed this upside town spinning top trainwreck snake since it's all the same gene" just seems ........ Bleh.

Kind of like how English bulldog breeders have just accepted that bulldogs can't free whelp and will all have brachycephalic syndrome, and some Quarterhorse breeders are totally ok with breeding HYPP positive, etc., etc.. :taz:

And I HATE telling people that they're being irresponsible, because I HATE "forum jockeys" (very many on snake forums, but there are TONS on some small mammal forums) who think that their excrement smells like a bouquet ... So I won't go off on too much of a tangent on that. You do what you want with your snakes; as long as you aren't abusing them or neglecting them I'm not going to comment (unless, as in this case, you ask me to).

But I do have a fair amount of knowledge of genetics, so to try and help the OP make an informed breeding decision, I'm going to add my two cents even if it doesn't jive with the accepted conventional wisdom.

I mean, it's tough advice to think about following ... Easy to give, but tough to follow. Not sure what I'll be saying and thinking and doing if in a year from now I'm looking at the most beautiful mojave bumblebee in the world who loves to eat and grows great and can't hold his head upright. I like to think that I'll be calling him the most valuable "pet" I own. ... I like to think that. :weirdface

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Originally Posted by mommanessy247

i'm no breeder (nor do i have any snake breeding knowledge) but i can say that i could not knowingly breed anything that has any kind of defect.

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going to pick and choose your defects? Albinos have a defect where they can't produce melanin, all morphs are some sort of defect. your mojave is a defect of some sort....this whole hobby is defective animals lol.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

going to pick and choose your defects? Albinos have a defect where they can't produce melanin, all morphs are some sort of defect. your mojave is a defect of some sort....this whole hobby is defective animals lol.

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I bet high white pieds get eaten a lot faster in the wild than their low white sibs. So are the low whites defective too, or just less defective? I'm kidding, but also curious... They're both pied, obviously.

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

I bet high white pieds get eaten a lot faster in the wild than their low white sibs. So are the low whites defective too, or just less defective? I'm kidding, but also curious... They're both pied, obviously.

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This speaks to the heart of the question. Nature selects mutations for success or failure based on their ability to survive and procreate - in the wild. Man chooses to remove the environmental pressures inherent in the predator/prey relationship, thus allowing certain mutations to continue because he deems them desirable. Thus, man becomes the arbiter of evolution - to a degree.

Unfortunately, it has been proven throughout history that man is a rotten arbiter of such things, and that unforeseen (and damaging) genetic traits can and do occur in those species that he has genetically manipulated.

The idea that wobbling and the spider morphology are somehow 'natural' is a red herring. It occurs in the wild, but who here really knows whether nature would select it out? I suspect that a neurologic disorder like this in a snake would increase the chance of predation, and reduce the chance that the spider morph would continue as a sub-type. But what do I know.

i am still learning about all the morphs, so please dont have a go at me if this is wrong
the woma ball python is very like the spider ball python, and i read somewhere that they may even be related like the cinnamon and black pastel ball pythons, so surely then then woma is the better of the two becuase it will produce animals very much like the spider (like the bumblebee) but does not contain the spider wobble, is this correct

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Originally Posted by eracer

The idea that wobbling and the spider morphology are somehow 'natural' is a red herring. It occurs in the wild, but who here really knows whether nature would select it out? I suspect that a neurologic disorder like this in a snake would increase the chance of predation, and reduce the chance that the spider morph would continue as a sub-type. But what do I know.

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Not sure who has said they're "natural" ..? I mean, in a way, sure; they weren't created in a laboratory. The first spider mutation did appear without the aid of man. I agree, though, that I think it's very doubtful that they would have survived without man's intervention.

Do I think that means that they shouldn't survive? ... I think the big question is, does the mutation we're propagating negatively affect the animal's quality of life? I don't think having a different paint job gives the animal any lower self-esteem, so for 95% of our morphs that isn't an issue.

Does the spider "wobble" affect the animal's QOL? ... I really don't know. For a large portion of our spiders that have very little neurologic derangement, I would say that no, it doesn't, at least 99% of the time. I cannot, however, say the same for the "train wrecks" that are upside-down most of the time. Maybe it doesn't bother them and they are just as happy as any other captive snake in its safe, warm, secure, well-fed state. Then again maybe they live in a permanent state of malaise and existential frustration; I don't know, I'm not a neuro snake. :rolleyes:

@Reptiledanny -- I don't believe, based on what I've read and seen, that the spider and woma are in any way related. They do kinda look similar. I think that the woma is a great alternative for those who are turned off by the spider "wobble." I think, though, that the reason the woma hasn't simply replaced the spider is because, in my opinion (and I don't think I'm alone here) the woma crosses can't hold a candle to the same crosses made with a spider. (Ex: "wannabee" versus bumblebee, etc.) People just seem to like the spider crosses better.