Help?

My boyfriend and I recently purchased a ball python, (Approximately a month ago, (s)he's a normal juvenile)
(s)he's very stubborn when it comes to eating and refused to do so for the first three weeks of living with us. I know this is very common, but I'm still very concerned. I've been told that feeding live would help him to start eating, but I am VERY uncomfortable doing so. I understand that most breeders are doing it, but I hate the idea that the mouse could hurt Jambi, (s)he's still very small and thin. (S)he's also been fed f/t before being adopted by us (to my knowledge).

In regards to feeding, we brought Jambi (our snake) into a separate container for the first two weeks and let him sit in there for an hour, and he seemed to show little to know interest in it, so the third week we did the same thing but put both the snake and mouse into the terrarium for a little under twenty four hours, but again he did not eat. After three weeks of unsuccessful feeding we assist fed him. He ate it in the separate container and we later put him back into his terrarium (10 gallon) and let him be.

Is there anything more that we can do to help him get comftorbal with us and feel safer as well as eat?

Tank setup:
We currently have two hides ( a cold (75-80 degrees) and warm (90 degrees)), a UTH, a heat lamp (both connected to a thermostat) humidity level of in between 45%-55%, aspen bedding, a vine, a water bowl (placed underneath the lamp), black cardboard around three walls of it's glass terrarium, and crumpled up news paper around his tank.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/u...e/DSCN2713.jpg
This is the best picture I can find of his terrarium before we added the lamp, vine, and newspaper.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/u...DSCN2779-1.jpg
This is Jambi, just showing you guys his size.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/u...e/DSCN2780.jpg
Not the greatest picture, (sorry) but this is what his cage looks like now, ( I know the temperatures are low I had just recently removed the hides to get you guys a picture of Jambi)

I would try live prey, if done properly live is just as safe as F/T or P/K. What I would recommend (and I am far from an expert) is to get some tongs and hold the live rat by the tail and let it be just out of reach from the snake.

This way the snake has the chance to strike and feed and the prey can't harm him/her. Your temps and humidity seem fine and he should have had time to adjust to the new environment. What temp is the food when you offer it? They should be nice and hot (but not cooked) and if needed warm em up real good with a hair dryer. But I would try live for the next offering of food.

We've been feeding with tongs, since day one, and we usually put the mouse in a bag and run very hot water over the bag and then blow dry the mouse.

Are you positive there's no other option then live? I know I'm really stressing over it, I'm just really hesitant, I've been told live is just trouble, I'm okay with feeding him babies that are still blind, it's just the transition from live to f/t or p/k after he's used to live that I'm not sure (s)he'll make. (S)He's VERY stubborn.

To be quite honest I would be assist feeding him a small f/t (warmed) pinky every 3-4 days. He's super thin and losing him is a definite possibility. I would also move him to a shoe box tub until he is eating and gaining weight. That tank is far too big for him and a smaller enclosure will help him feel secure and eat on his own. But don't put off feeding him any longer. A small pinky every 3-4 days starting today! Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want to talk more about it.

BTW there is no way a live pinky/hopper could hurt him, they don't have teeth. He's way to small for anything other than a pinky/hopper.

Those hides are also way too big for him. BPs should have to squish themselves a bit to curl up inside a hide. You may have to make your own hide out of a solid colored tupperware dish, small pots-for plants, etc. You will need to cut a doorway in whatever you decide to use.

I have no way to set up a tub right now unfortunately our UTH is stuck right onto the glass so the heating wouldn't be sufficient, I just started thawing a mouse for him so in about an hour I'll assist feed him again.

The feeding I can do but the bucket I'm not so sure is as easy. Would it have the same effect if I put paper over the 4th wall of the terrarium? Also how long do you think I should assist feed him for? (assuming I did it every 4 days) I was told only to do it every two weeks.

The problem with the cage is that the hides are WAYYYY to big. Go to Lowe's today and buy the smallest saucer pans (catch the water at the bottom of a plant pot). And when people mean fill the tank with newspaper balls that means FILL it to the lid with news paper. Personally I would just stick him in a 6 qt and save the tank til he starts eating. The tub can be placed inside the tank to keep ambient temps up along with humidity.

To be honest, a hopper mouse or rat pup hurts won't your snake. Feed live.

Alright, I can get smaller hides that's no problem, I thought they were a little big buying them, we actually bought them form a breeder and he said that they would be fine. I'll go buy proper hides in a couple hours, thank you so much.

In regards to the tub how exactly should it be setup and placed, if I needed it to be in the terrarium? A picture would be a lot of help.

Alright, I can get smaller hides that's no problem, I thought they were a little big buying them, we actually bought them form a breeder and he said that they would be fine. I'll go buy proper hides in a couple hours, thank you so much.

In regards to the tub how exactly should it be setup and placed, if I needed it to be in the terrarium? A picture would be a lot of help.

Is it possible just to get smaller hides and more newspaper instead of a tub?

I just tried feeding him again and I got the mouse into his mouth once and he spit it out and while trying a second time he urinated on me..

I'm really starting to worry, should I go to a vet?

He is very thin... I hope you don't lose this guy.

I have had lots of experience with trouble feeders at the Pet Store I work parttime at. This is my advice to you..

Go to Walmart and get a 6 quart tub All you want in there is a tight plastic hide on the warm end and a water bowl on the cool end. Paper towel as substrate. Either buy a new UTH or put the tub in his current enclosure right on the glass over the UTH. (Making sure half of the tub [the side with the water] isn't over the UTH) Fiddle with your thermostat so inside the tub he's at 90-93 warm spot. Leave him be with NO contact for 2 days then defrost a pinky and assist feed him. If he refuses the assist feed, force feed. I'd do this every 3 days for about 5 feedings. Then I would get a hopper mouse (LIVE) and leave it in his tub overnight. Hopefully he takes it. If not, continue assist feeding and alternate from the live hopper to assist pinky.

I wouldn't go to the vet just yet...

I know he is this, we got him like that, again like I said we bought him from a breeder, but him being our first I had no idea in how much of a bad condition he is in, I'm very worried about him, I'll see if my boyfriend has any money due to the fact that my paycheck is on hold.

As soon as I have the money I'll go get one. It can be easily done that he is left completely alone for two days, we've only really handled him three times since we're not supposed to until he's eating properly. We were told so many times to leave him be that I never thought It'd get this bad. Thank you for the help.

Some people told us that we should only fill it with newspaper balls 1/3 full...

I really do think that he just needs to be given some time. Yes he is skinny. We assist fed him a hopper last wed, and he kept it down no problem. He did seem a little bit bigger when we bought him, so he is losing some weight. I am going to get a tub from Lowes, along with a scale so we can monitor his weight. I will do my best to try to find someone who will sell us a live pinky, but for the time being we dont have many options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zayra

Is it possible just to get smaller hides and more newspaper instead of a tub?

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Yes, but it is a option that you can only make. I wouldn't, the main objective is to get him eating trying to "make something work" takes time, which is something that you might not have.

6 qt can be set inside the tank with 1/3 of it's floor on the hot spot in the tank. Put the probe in the tub and up the thermostat to get the hot spot in the tub up. No need to remove the uth when you can just use it where it is at.

Tub set up:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5006/...19b2438cef.jpg
SSPX0192 by Mitsumike, on Flickr

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarrinLowe

I will do my best to try to find someone who will sell us a live pinky, but for the time being we dont have many options.

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Find a Mom and Pop shop. I am sure a pet store such on google near your location will give you atleast one. Good luck!

How long have you had the snake? I wouldn't have bought the snake myself based on what it looks like. I would be contacting the breeder to let him/her know and also ask why they would sell a snake that small. By the looks of it, it doesn't even look like it has had a meal.

I wouldn't be buying a tub, I would be returning the snake.

My boyfriend went out and bought a tub and smaller cave. We should have it all set up in two hours when he's back from work, thank you for the advice and the picture, it was very helpful, I'll give you guys an update on how he's doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piper

I wouldn't be buying a tub, I would be returning the snake.

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With no receipt? I don't know if he'd do it. Though it has been less than 90 days....:rofl:

But seriously plz keep us up to date. Also remember the snake will be stress from all this moving and change so give him like 5 days to settle in and then offer a meal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MitsuMike

With no receipt? I don't know if he'd do it. Though it has been less than 90 days....:rofl:

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If it was bought from a breeder, usually they will have a health/feeding guarantee.

It's not really a matter of getting my moneys worth, I've grown to care about this snake and I'll do everything in my power to keep in healthy, are you sure I should leave him for five days? Because I've read that leaving them in completely isolation for 2-3 and then feeding a pinky every three days for 5 feedings should get him a lot healthier, and then moving onto a live hopper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piper

If it was bought from a breeder, usually they will have a health/feeding guarantee.

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Health guarantee, yes. Feeding guarantee, no.....Most likely it's the keepers fault the snake isn't eating or it's a health issue, so a feeding guarantee is pretty pointless, seeing as a breeder shouldn't sell a snake without 3 meals under it's belt anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zayra

It's not really a matter of getting my moneys worth, I've grown to care about this snake and I'll do everything in my power to keep in healthy, are you sure I should leave him for five days? Because I've read that leaving them in completely isolation for 2-3 and then feeding a pinky every three days for 5 feedings should get him a lot healthier, and then moving onto a live hopper.

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2 days is quite early. For a new shipped snake that has weight under it's belt and some months I would say 2 is fine. I would wait atleast 3 days, if you wish.
The snake is not in that bad of shape for 2 more days in isolation to do any damage. I say 5 days b/c just remember, if the snake doesn't eat on the 3rd day you have to wait 3 more days until food will be offered.
And when I say 5, I mean offer food on the 5th day. Sorry for not being clear.

Some practice the every 3 days but a snake who hasn't been eating is more likely to eat every 5th than every 3rd. Now the snake should be left completely alone for the first 3-4 feedings. Only reason to bother it would be to clean and check temps. After that the little fellow will be a good routine to feed constantly allowing handling. Once it reaches 200 grams or so and is eating good sized mice the 10 gallon will become it's new home.

He is emaciated (people are saying 'very thin', but they're just trying to avoid stronger language). Make sure you keep the humidity up so he can stay hydrated. The cage is too big. It and the hides need to be smaller. You can put a little plastic shoebox down inside that giant cage, half over the heat pad. Be sure to use clamps on the long side so he can't pry the lid up and hurt himself.

Use hides that he can just barely squeeze into. Feed him a live mouse hopper, at night, in the dark, a couple of days after you get him into a smaller enclosure. If he doesn't eat it within 2 hours, remove it. Try again 2 days later. If that's a fail, then try assist-feeding again. Use a rat pinky or a mouse crawler. DO NOT FORCE-FEED. Force feeding is very dangerous and can rupture the esophagus and kill the snake outright. If you can't get him to assist-feed, take him to a vet and have him tube-fed some Carnivore Care. He is DEFINITELY at the point where getting nutrition into him has to be a top priority.

It's a hopeful sign that you've managed to get one meal into him, and he kept it down.
You didn't say what you assist-fed him with, but the same type of rodent would be the best choice for getting him to accept live. He's already swallowed one, and will be more likely to recognize it as food. Just don't give him anything smaller than a crawler mouse/pinky rat, it wouldn't be enough nutrition to matter much.

Don't give up quickly on assist-feeding. I've had to put the food back in a snake's throat as many as 5 times before they finally gave in and swallowed it. He may have been in worse shape the first time, and thus not as able to fight you. Now he's a little stronger, and will struggle more.

When we assist fed him we gave him a black f/t hopper.
We are going to go tomorrow to get a smaller container to put him into, we already have one smaller hide in there for the time being, is there anything else I can do until then? Also in terms of feeding, I was told to do about six hundred different things, which is most likely for success?

Picky eaters like these that ive dealt with from hatching was tossing in a live fuzzy or hopper mouse over night. Check back in morning and usually after few attempts they eat it on their own or first time. The key is leaving it over night with absolutely no disturbing the snake. This size mouse will do no harm to the snake at all.

If not pre killed fuzzies assisted gets the job done 90% of the time.

Okay, I will call around and find a live fuzzy.

Just for reference, as we unsuccessfully fed him yesterday, in his condition, we should be waiting 2-3 days before trying again?

How often should we resort to assist feeding, I was told in another thread that we should only assist fed once every 2 weeks. I couldnt find a tub that was similar to the one you provided in the picture, the only one I found was a 1.14gallon plastic fish enclosure, but it was taller than it was wider and seemed much too small. I did find a smaller hide, which he is in right now, the opening isnt very tight though.

I wanted to post an update for you guys with some new information.

We tried quite a few of your suggestions and nothing had been working. So we went and spoke to te breeder. In this we found out that all snakes they sell, have been confirmed to eat f/t before they can be sold. He gave us a live one and told us to pre-kill it and see if that works, if not we should take him in for the breeder to watch over for a few days.

We did this, and he did not eat it. So we will be bringing him in to the breeder to see if he can help with his situation. I'm not taking him in to get a new one or anything of that matter, our intention is merely to assure he is okay. That ball is our responsibility and we will not be giving up. He is going to call us, and show us what we should be doing first hand.

I understand quite a few of you were concerned about his size, and I did forget to ask the age of the snake, but he did mention that "at his size" he could safely go 2 months without eating. Not that they want him to, he added.

Anyways, I will keep you posted with this one.

Here are some other pictures, hopefully they will give you a better view of his size.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56...yRox/snake.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56...Rox/snake1.jpg

When I sell any of my babies I make sure that you know what you are doing before you leave with that snake. Also if that breeder has one get the birth information and the feeding chart. Maybe that baby already had his schedule worked out and all the confusion and attention just plain freaked him out. The main things you need to be worrying about is food and hydration at this point. If you haven't start writing down everything you do with this guy. That way if you do need to take him to the vet there is not confusion on dates times or what's what. The vet will be able to address things better. Make sure you're keeping him warm and giving him rest and quiet. And when you see the breeder ask them if he can show you the technique he's using to feed I've seen babies be freaked out about a dangling food prey item especially if they are stressed try dragging it on the tub floor so it's a bit more natural. Ask them to show you exactly how he was keeping this animal and try your best to put things back to normal.
Hope this helps
Morgan

Well,

for the most part we looked up a bunch of caresheets and everything before we even purchased the snake. There is just so much contradiction between them, that we really never know what to truly do. We still get the general idea, but apparently not.

The breeder is pretty pissed.

He said that the snake is extremely stressed, and she shys away everytime he even walks by the bin shes in. Apparently, we were trying to feed it too frequently, which came from advice on here, and we werent helping the situation at all.

He has had her over a week, and she has not fed yet, so he is going to wait and hopefully things will turn out better.

The way he described it is that "We messed that snake up." I really dont see how though, we tried to avoid handling in all ways possible, we used newspaper balls, and misted frequently to attempt to achieve optimal temperatures and humidity.

I hope that he can help the snake. We are still very interested in getting her back, but I am hesitant to.. I would hate to think that I am hurting her, or stressing her out to such an extreme level. The last thing I want to be is a poor pet owner.