Black Pastel question

Is a black pastel really just a cinnamon ball python just that is the other name people refer to it as?

lance

No. The two genes act very similarly--both produce pewters when combined with pastels, and both supers are solid, dark-colored animals with white bellies. And they are allelic, in that they are located on the same gene--so an animal can only have a max of two cinnamon genes, or two black pastel genes, or one of either. And a super will always and only pass on one copy of one of the genes to its offspring

But the black pastels produce overall darker morphs. The super black pastels are more charcoal black, while super cinnamons have a somewhat warmer brown coloration. Black pewters look very different (darker) from cinnamon pewters. I think if you poke around you can find similar trends with lesser and mojave and hypo mixes.

that is very helpful and gives my mind alot to think on since my goal was a pair of black pastels to find and I was under the impression cinnamon's were black pastel do you know or can you recommend someone that is selling True black pastels?

Thanks Kindly,

Lance

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Originally Posted by lance

that is very helpful and gives my mind alot to think on since my goal was a pair of black pastels to find and I was under the impression cinnamon's were black pastel do you know or can you recommend someone that is selling True black pastels?

Thanks Kindly,

Lance

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Some of the big breeders such as VPI or BHB have their own lines of black pastels, each with some unique characteristics.

Garick Demeyer at Royal constrictors has some awesome looking black pastel babies:)

Gary Liesen (Snakemans Snakeshop) has a very nice line of Black Pastels. One of the best lines IMO.:gj:

Thanks
Anthony

Yeah, Liesens are the new "it" line in black pastels. I haven't seen a Liesen super yet, though...

Mine are Ian G. line, and I got them from Dynasty Reptiles. He usually has some nice ones, and I like the way his supers turn out.

Heather's Herps also works with them, but I don't see any for sale this year. (Except for the female bullet, who's apparently half cinny/half black pastel.)

...most people won't mislabel a cinny as a black pastel. Cinnamons are generally cheaper, but a lot of people prefer the cinnamon pewter, so they still have their own market pull. If you have any doubt, though, check the breeder on the Fauna BOI and go with a well-known, well-reputed breeder. And look at the snake--you basically get what you see with black pastels and cinnamons.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

No. The two genes act very similarly--both produce pewters when combined with pastels, and both supers are solid, dark-colored animals with white bellies. And they are allelic, in that they are located on the same gene--so an animal can only have a max of two cinnamon genes, or two black pastel genes, or one of either. And a super will always and only pass on one copy of one of the genes to its offspring

But the black pastels produce overall darker morphs. The super black pastels are more charcoal black, while super cinnamons have a somewhat warmer brown coloration. Black pewters look very different (darker) from cinnamon pewters. I think if you poke around you can find similar trends with lesser and mojave and hypo mixes.

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Thank you for your detailed answer! I Love this forum and how people share knowledge! Once again thank you!!!!!

To me Cinnamon's and Black Pastels look worlds apart. Although it can be hard to tell the difference between a low quality Cinny or Black Pastel.
IMO Gary Liesen's Black Pastels are the very best example of what a Black Pastel should look like.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

And look at the snake--you basically get what you see with black pastels and cinnamons.

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This is so true. I got Black Pastel in a trade and sight unseen. Brownish head and most characteristics we associate with the Cinnamon. After receiving the animal I followed up and learned it is an Ian G line Black Pastel. I line from which I own some very nice examples that don't look Cinnamon at all. This was a few years ago. I have since been watching the classifieds just to see the variation in the Black Pastels. There are regularly Black Pastels being produced that have Cinnamon characteristics, and very often the Black Pastels being offered by Outback Reptiles have Cinnamon characteristics and look pretty much the same as the snake I received in that trade. I believe Outback is Ian G's company so they should know a Black Pastel when they see (or produce) one. Here is a current ad for one:
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=826128
I'm sure Outback knows their Black Pastels very well, but it goes a long way towards blurring the line between Cinnamons and Blacks and reinforces the fact that you want to purchase the snake that looks the best in your eyes for your projects.
- Paul

IMO just because it's being sold under a specific name doesn't mean its the right name. I can understand a Black Pastel being sold as a Cinnamon. I do not understand a Cinnamon being sold as a Black Pastel. I say this because I have never seen a Cinny that looks like a Black Pastel but I have seen low quality Black Pastels that look like Cinny's.

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Originally Posted by PiedPeddler

There are regularly Black Pastels being produced that have Cinnamon characteristics, and very often the Black Pastels being offered by Outback Reptiles have Cinnamon characteristics and look pretty much the same as the snake I received in that trade. I believe Outback is Ian G's company so they should know a Black Pastel when they see (or produce) one. Here is a current ad for one:
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=826128

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See, that looks like a pretty solid black pastel to me. There's some warm browns in the blushing, but overall it just looks less brown than either of these:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=825155

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=807348

But I guess the proof is the the pewter...

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I can understand a Black Pastel being sold as a Cinnamon. I do not understand a Cinnamon being sold as a Black Pastel.

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I think the worry there is that black pastels (on average) still sell for $50-$100 more than cinnamons?

...And oh my GOSH do I want Bailey's hypo super cinny. Somebody lend me a few grand?

I think it's just that my perspective is a bit skewed. In 2005 when we got our hatchling Cinnamon male to put into our Pied projects, we got the darkest one we could find because we wanted dark supers in the end. Our founding Ian G line Black Pastel was what I considered average, but did not have any brown wash over the head. So basically our Cinnamon Het Pieds are dark and our Black Pastel Het Pieds are darker than many. What jumps out is the brown wash over the head of our Cinnamons. So when I see a Black Pastel with some brown wash over its head I think Cinnamon.
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...-Cinnamon1.jpg
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...-Cinnamon2.jpg

Here is a pic of a Black Pastel and a Cinnamon. The Black Pastel is a Liesen line and the Cinnamon is from Paul Buckley, both of witch are top notch specimens.
Black Pastel on the left and Cinnamon on the right.
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_3627.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_3630.jpg

And this is our Cinny female (yea she is a black back and a ringer to boot to)

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_3641.jpg

Chad with METAL MORPHS has a great line of black pastels. I bought mine two years ago from him.