Heat Pack Testing Thread.

I've decided to test a standard shipping box with a 72 hour heat pack.

I'll be updating photos as the experiment progresses. This is the first photo. The air temperature here, as you can see, is close to 80F. I have given the heat pack just enough time to start to warm, then taped it to the lid of the box. The heat probe is on top of some crumpled newspaper, and beneath another piece of crumpled newspaper, inside of the box (the box is filled with newspaper as though a snake were being shipped, and the probe is where the snake would be sitting). I taped the probe in place so it couldn't shift. The box does have 4 small air holes, as it was a test box, but I covered them with tape for this experiment.

This is a standard Superior shipping box.

Start time: 4 PM.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_1.jpg

Very neat experiment! Can't wait to see the outcome!

Another interesting experiment (if one doesn't mind spending the money) is to pack the thermometer inside the box...maybe put it in a snake bag or deli cup that an animal would be in...then ship it overnight to someplace cold. Those particular thermometers will save the max and min temps that it recorded within the last 24 hours. It would be interesting to see if any extreme temps made it into the box, or if the heat pack and insulation were enough to maintain steady, healthy temps.

4:50 PM. As you can see, the interior of the box has now exceeded a safe temperature.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_2.jpg

Lesson: Never keep a packed box with a 72 hour heat pack in it, in an 80F room for longer than 10 to 15 minutes, tops.

I have now moved the box upstairs, where it is 74F, and I will check on it in a half hour and see if the interior temperature has gone up, or down.

5:20 PM:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_3.jpg

The temperature within the box has continued to rise, but seems to have slowed down. I will check again in a half hour to see whether or not it has stabilized. Obviously this temperature is not ideal. I don't believe we have a dead theoretical ball python yet, but it's uncomfortable in there.

Very interesting! Good job!

I have a question that is something to think about. If you were thinking of shipping have you given thought to the ambient temps of the shipping service? I know that plane compartments are heated but to what temperature? 72 seems fair for a truck with a heated space but a quick googling returns that plane 'heated' cargo can be 64ºF it might be interesting to repeat your experiment at something like 60-5 to see what happens at cooler temps.

Actually, I think what I'm finding here is important for everyone to know, since a lot of people pack this way.

6 PM

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_4.jpg

6:30 PM

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_5.jpg

Obviously now, at this point, we don't want the animal in that box anymore! At a normal room temperature of just 71 F, this box is now far too hot inside. We simply can't pack a box this way, regardless of the outside temperatures, because just a few hours at room temperature are causing overheating.

I have opened the box to cool it, and I'm going to repack it again, to see if the initial high temperature of 80F for the room was responsible for the overheating, or if it's going to do the same thing even starting off at 71.

Cooled off. The interior when I repacked was 70.6 F. Here is a couple minutes later.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_6.jpg

What made you choose a 72 hour heat pack? It would be interesting to see what results you would get using one rated for less hours.

7:30 PM

Experiment 1: Total failure.
This is the most common way people pack animals, and it has shown that it's just plain dangerous. Animals that are shipped this way have probably been subjected to heat stress.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_7.jpg

Have you seen this?

http://www.chameleonpages.com/winter_shipping.htm

Does it get any hotter than 92? That is certainly warmer than safety would allow for many species...but doesn't seem that bad for ball pythons. A lot of people keep their warm spots at 92-94. While I do think it's not ideal...I don't think it's necessarily "dangerous" for a ball python to be in a box at 92 for a few hours.

If it goes much hotter than that...then yes...I can see the point. And certainly for some colubrids or delicate geckos, (for instance) that would be way too hot.

Kite--I hadn't seen that before, no. But most of us here are shipping in winter temperatures that are in the 30s or higher. The problem I ran into here is that when you drop the box off, it may be held for hours in a facility at normal room temperatures. This is potentially fatal.

72 hour heat packs do not supposedly exceed 110 F, which is the same temp achieved by 40 hour heat packs, so it shouldn't really make a big difference.

I prefer 72 hour because shipping delays can happen.

JLC, while I did not continue photo recording past 92, yes--the temperature did continue to rise. When I stopped the first time, it was around 93. It's a fair assumption that it could go much higher, considering how quickly it rose to that level.

im gonna do the same exp tomoro and see what 20-40 degrees (depending on the time of day) will do to a heated box

I have a 72 hour heat pack going here. As soon as I can find a configuration that doesn't cook the snake indoors, I'm putting it out on the porch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

7:30 PM

Experiment 1: Total failure.
This is the most common way people pack animals, and it has shown that it's just plain dangerous. Animals that are shipped this way have probably been subjected to heat stress.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...periment_7.jpg

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However, most people use 40 hour heat packs, not 72 hour ones. And I don't recall hearing overwhelming reports of heat stress from folks.

It is interesting information though.

Well i shall see how hot a 40hr heat pack gets in a 83f room.

Says it will peak at 115 but settle down to a max of 100 surface temp. If it can not reach that in a 83f room then 72hr heat packs are rated differently.

Start time 10:45am est
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/100_3717.jpg

Once full temps are reached from heat pack i will assemble a box and keep it in the snake room and see temps then.

After 5 hours the heat pack in 83f room peaked at 103 sitting on desk. Which Will be perfect for shipping any snake in cold temps.

In the Box Its been holding at 85f on floor which is 79F

Since peaking, now I'm having issues getting the heat pack to actually heat the box properly when it's put outside. It will hold it at about 10 degrees above room temperature indoors, but outdoors, it sinks into the 50s in the box, in 30 degree weather.

I'm thinking that the solution to this may be to activate the heat packs and let them peak before packing the boxes, then put in 2 heat packs to each one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Since peaking, now I'm having issues getting the heat pack to actually heat the box properly when it's put outside. It will hold it at about 10 degrees above room temperature indoors, but outdoors, it sinks into the 50s in the box, in 30 degree weather.

I'm thinking that the solution to this may be to activate the heat packs and let them peak before packing the boxes, then put in 2 heat packs to each one.

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I always let the heat packs sit on a table for 3 hours minimum before taping it to the lid of the box.

Using 2 heat packs in very cold temps will help but in 40-60s will cook the snake.

Like i said i just got a snake shipped in mid 30s with 1 40 hr heat pack and it was warm when arrived.

Today, we try thicker foam in the boxes. I'm going to find a safe configuration for this, one that's actually reliable when it's a 70 degree room, or in 30 F outside. It's become clear that a standard Superior shipping box with a 72 hour heat pack taped to the lid will A) cook the snake if you put it in before it peaks, and B) not hold the temperature at a life-sustaining level if the temperatures outside are in the 30s. It's just not good enough.

What range in temp would you say is acceptable for shipping?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

What range in temp would you say is acceptable for shipping?

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Ive safely shipped snakes in the low 30s and in the 90s. All snakes arrived either warm in the cold days and cool in the warm days.


If packed right id say 30-90 is your cut off. If holding at a hub you can push it lil more

Thanks Rich I was actually thinking internal temp range. Starting at 90ºF and dropping to 75ºF for a ball python that is what I would guess as an acceptable range. Maybe a bit warmer would be ok? This seems to be a thorny issue as upon further reading the air cargo cabins vary a lot but I have been told that figure on 10ºC (50ºF) for live animals. Warm terminal to cold plane to warm terminal. Heavy range there.

electrical socks? do they have a built in thermostat?

Like i said i have shipped ball pythons in the mid to low 30s and 90s. Both arrived healthy and are to this day doing great.

90-70 you wouldn't need any heat pack

65-40 one heat pack
40-30 1-2 heat packs depending

Hold at hub will reduce exposure. I drop off all my shipments at FedEx Hub

Rich I get that, but the op's point is that the hub is heated and the transport is not. If you plan for the trasport but then the shipping box is moved to a warm room the snake over heats. If you plan for a warm room the snake freezes during transport.

My question is what is the internal range that is tolerable? I'd guess that 90 to 75 internal temps would be ok. The problem is one of thermal loss and gain. I don't actually ship but I find the problem of thermal regulation very interesting.

I actually believe that what ever ppl have been doing works as snakes are shipped safely all the time. I do know of snakes arriving with a temp of 64ºF that ended up fine but that is one cold ball and is certainly not ideal.

I am wondering if there is some cheap system that would allow a bit of temperature control inside the shipping container. A bi-metal vent was my first thought.

I've achieved interesting results by custom-cutting a piece of insanely thick wall insulation foam board, and using it to replace the bottom piece in the box, then re-cutting the side pieces and leaving the top alone. The box has a lot less head-room, but it spent an hour outside at 12 F and held the temperature at 50 F inside the box. If the outside temp is over 30 F, instead of 12, we're back in a survivable temperature range. Best of all, it used one heat pack, and didn't overheat at room temperature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I actually believe that what ever ppl have been doing works as snakes are shipped safely all the time.

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I agree, no need to re-invent the wheel. If there were scores of animals reported arriving with neurological issues, then I'd be concerned. But thousands of animals are shipped every year, and very few reported problems.

While true, it's also true that many people won't ship at temps below 50F. I'm trying to figure out a way to do so safely. It appears I have succeeded in getting it down to 30 F, which was my goal. I think some different shipping boxes may work better--Uline boxes, for example, may produce different results than the Superior boxes.