Genetic Limits??????

Is there a limit to the number of genetic traits a ball python can have? how many co dom or recessive traits can one snake have? and how do breeders get triple co dom recessive snakes? this just blows my mind.

There doesn't seem to be any limiting factor unless the two (or more!) of the traits have a synergistic/epistatic effect on one another that causes a condition that's incompatible with life. For example, according to one post I've read the sable x spider seems to consistently fail to thrive, so anything with both sable and spider shouldn't survive (in theory ........).

Aside from that, it's limited only by probability (hitting on a octuple co-dom, for example, would have astronomically small odds) and the amount of time necessary to breed these many-multi gene combos ...

Also, as we breed more and more I suspect that we'll find that there are some genes whose loci are very close together on the same chromosome, so it will be highly improbable for crossing over to occur and both morphs show up in the same offspring ... I haven't yet heard of anything like that, though, oddly enough.

Anyone know what morph has the highest number of genetic traits?

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Originally Posted by WFReptiles

Anyone know what morph has the highest number of genetic traits?

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I think NERD has the most prolific "mega combos", although I know some others are also working on such things. Which has the most? I have no idea...but maybe someone does.

The trouble when you get into these "mega combos" is that it gets harder and harder to identify with certainty exactly which traits have been passed along. Someone with an eye like Kevin's can pick out minute details of each one...but even he doesn't know what, exactly, some of his combos are.

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Originally Posted by WFReptiles

Anyone know what morph has the highest number of genetic traits?

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Im gonna ask the same thing. As of this date, whom or what bp have the most number of morphs/traits on it? And how many morphs/traits have been squeezed into that bp? :)

There has to be limits.... Where I dont know, but there are only a certain amount of genes to mutate.....

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Originally Posted by jopay

Im gonna ask the same thing. As of this date, whom or what bp have the most number of morphs/traits on it? And how many morphs/traits have been squeezed into that bp? :)

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Kevin has several combos that he believes to have five and six genes at play. He's not going to say what they all are yet, of course - and some he doesn't really KNOW what all they are until he breeds them some more. I have a four banger in my collection currently (enchi-pin-bengal-het pied) from Kevin.

Robin, I've heard you mention the Bengal morph a couple times, but Google doesn't turn much up on it -- do you mind elaborating or is it still a "quiet project" at the moment? ;) Thanks!

queen-spin is pastel+lesser+spider+pinstripe

I think that at a certain point it will be impossiable to tell what traits are showing.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Robin, I've heard you mention the Bengal morph a couple times, but Google doesn't turn much up on it -- do you mind elaborating or is it still a "quiet project" at the moment? ;) Thanks!

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Bengal is Kevin's line of genetic reduced patterns. It looks sort of like a dirty enchi to me. He had a Bengal/Pastel that I thought was an enchi pastel. It adds warm gold tones to mixes. I know that he's working on getting a genetics page up on it. Actually, I think it's done, it's just a matter of reformatting the page that lists all the mutations, and is more involved than just adding it. I know that he wanted to wait to ship my boy until he got a chance to take some more pictures of him for the page.

When I get a chance, I'll try to load some of my pictures that I took of the bengal. I happened to love the bengals that I saw, but it's so hard to capture how cool they look in person. It's a very subtle morphs, but I've always been a fan of the subtle morphs.

I also got a picture of one of his combo's that included the bengal that really cleaned up the combo.

Honestly I don't think anyone really knows what the genetic limits are with ball pythons. I have been told in the beginning of this morph craze no one know or really believed that the morphs would "stack" at all. So the Bumble Bee was a real shocker. I agree with the previous poster that there will definately be some mutations that when "stacked" will not thrive or survive and some will not readily "stack" because of their location on the chromosomes. Other than those limitations I personally think the sky is the limit.

After you get 4-5 in one there is SOO much change to the snake that it is very hard to tell what it even is or if there is another gene that you don't even know about in it......

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Bengal is Kevin's line of genetic reduced patterns. It looks sort of like a dirty enchi to me. He had a Bengal/Pastel that I thought was an enchi pastel.

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Thanks for the info; sounds like my kind of morph ;) (I really dig banded/reduced pattern animals ...)

Others have raised a great point about the ability to distinguish what's in some multi-gene animals ... Some of these "mystery balls" look amazing, but some (to my way of thinking) are a waste of time to breed when the four gene animal looks nearly indistinguishable from an animal with three out of the same four genes.

I think the other problem is that there are clearly some mutations that will most likely "mask" anything else they're paired with -- homozygous lessers, for example. They might be powerhouses for breeding purposes, but at the same time, I like to know what I'm breeding when I put two animals together (and I better know what I'm selling when I put a critter up for sale ..!)

I do think it's conceivable that there could come a point where the number of genes an animal carries becomes less important than its overall appearance -- ie, a crappy-looking spider-cinnamon-pastel-sable will be worth less than a phenomenal pastel that, through generations of selective breeding, is screaming highlighter yellow with black polka dots. I don't think we'll see that day for a very, very long time, though -- possibly several decades, IMO.

But then again doesn't Kevin have like a couple balls with the 6 gene's in it but has all kinds of defects?

thanks for all the feedback. maybe some day i will be able to show everyone my own awesome morph combo.

The only limiting factor is the morphs genetic locus. Long genetic lesson made short. A morph is caused by a mutation in a gene. Some morphs are caused by mutations that are on the same gene as another morph. For instance you can't get a lesser mojave because instead you will get a blue eyed leucistic and that BEL could never pass mojave and lesser, its one or the other. Its important to remember that we are simplifying a very very complicated subject. There is potential for countless mutations. Of those mutations a subset will lead to healthy adults. A subset of those will lead to some outwardly visible difference that we would call a morph. Those mutations could be combined with any other mutation that is not on the same gene. Not sure how many genes BP's have but we can roughly compare them to humans and we have 20,000 to 25,000 genes not including mitochondrial DNA.

So to sum up and answer....the limits of genetics are way beyond what we as humans have been able to express so far. The real limit is on how many morphs we can find in nature and the time and effort we are willing to spend adding them together in one animal.

I think we have already heard reports of problems with some combos. It seems that while most mutations we breed are not life threatening (two copies of HG Woma and possible two copies of Spider look to be exceptions) there could be a cumulative negative effect of some mutation combos even though they aren't at the same locus so they can be combined. Hopefully most mutations are only skin deep regardless of what they are combined with but I wouldn't count on them all working that way.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think we have already heard reports of problems with some combos. It seems that while most mutations we breed are not life threatening (two copies of HG Woma and possible two copies of Spider look to be exceptions) there could be a cumulative negative effect of some mutation combos even though they aren't at the same locus so they can be combined.

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Explain the 2 copies of spiders??

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

Explain the 2 copies of spiders??

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Meaning homozygous spider (AKA "super spider" in snake parlance).

I was going to write out an explanation for what that means, but then I remembered that JLC has this very nice synopsis all typed out here:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Basic-Genetics

Basically, the theoretical spider with two copies of the gene got one from each parent, one from the sire and one from the dam.

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

But then again doesn't Kevin have like a couple balls with the 6 gene's in it but has all kinds of defects?

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Not that I'm personally aware of. I've had the pleasure of being a guest of his on three different occasions up to a week each visit with free access to all his animals. I don't recall seeing any defective animals (other than any newly hatched Pearls which were by-products of some of his breedings and he's discussed in some of the MaBalls videos).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Not that I'm personally aware of. I've had the pleasure of being a guest of his on three different occasions up to a week each visit with free access to all his animals. I don't recall seeing any defective animals (other than any newly hatched Pearls which were by-products of some of his breedings and he's discussed in some of the MaBalls videos).

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Just a guess. But its not like I said he makes retarded animals or anything. Thanks for clearing that up for me though.