Do YOU think genetically...White Snakes (Lucys) are a dead end?

I'm just really curious...
How many breeders feel that once a white snake is produced the project is dead?
I mean the "All White Snake" was the holy grail of the Ball Python Breeders...ok so now we know how to produce several different all white snakes, with different color eyes on top of it.
BUT is that the end?
I dont think so...it seems like we just need to think out of the box.....be creative.

just my 2 cents.

Becky

As a breeder do I think the all white snake is a dead end?? NO!!

Who wouldn't want a Super Lesser Super pastel Super Enchi might be an all white snake but with a few normals your sitting on a breeder powerhouse.. So genetically they are no different than any other super.. The problem comes in knowing what is hiding behind the white.. Is it a super Lesser Pastel spider or just a super lesser Pastel ect..

As a collector do I think they are a dead end?..NO! Any one that thinks so hasn't had the pleasure of pulling a tub open and seeing that little white gem laying there, or seeing one in the egg..just my two cents..

I love BEL's and anyone that doesn't I'll be happy to take everyone they have off their hands at no charge.. LOL

I'm not sure about ball pythons, but I've worked with leopard geckos for a while now and watching the community/happenings it seems like the epitome (read: the outcome of many multigene animals) is a white gecko with red eyes. There are multiple versions of this. Makes things very..confusing! 8|

The advantage ball pythons have over leopard geckos, though, is we are still getting fresh blood on a fairly constant basis. It has been illegal to import wild caught leopard geckos for years now, and it has effected the quality of the gene pool, especially here in the US. So, however you feel about importing wild caught animals, this is one of the MAJOR downsides to not doing it..

But, steering back on topic, I've seen some amazing multi-gene animals. The first thing I think of is a Killer Blast and it seems like you could just keep adding morphs on over generations. Perhaps, within the next decade when we start seeing more and more than quad-gene morphs, we will see if the white color is simply what takes over.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I love BEL's and anyone that doesn't I'll be happy to take everyone they have off their hands at no charge.. LOL

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Don't listen to this guy...

I'll give you $10 apiece for them :D

Genetically they are definitely not a dead end. As far as looks, this could be possible. Though they may just be all white to the naked eye, they may have more going on then all these rainbow colored snakes out there.

Pure white BP's in all thier varieties are gorgeous. I do however understand why not many try to add other genes to a pure white snake. More that likely you will still just have a pure white snake that you will have to raise up to breeding size and breed to another snake before you know what you have. How do you price a hatchling if you don't know what it is?

The exception would be to breed something like a lesser/lesser BEL to a SUPER pastel lesser. Any resulting BELs would be guaranteed to be pastel as well, so you could price them accordingly.

Then there is the chance that some pattern morphs might bleed through and show up on a lucy. Personally I think the dirtier BELs like super mojos have more potential for this. I know I would love to see a pure white snake with a purple clown or spider or pinstripe pattern. I admire anyone willing to invest the time/money into a project like this and "think outside the box".

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Originally Posted by TheReptileEnthusiast

Pure white BP's in all thier varieties are gorgeous. I do however understand why not many try to add other genes to a pure white snake. More that likely you will still just have a pure white snake that you will have to raise up to breeding size and breed to another snake before you know what you have. How do you price a hatchling if you don't know what it is?

The exception would be to breed something like a lesser/lesser BEL to a SUPER pastel lesser. Any resulting BELs would be guaranteed to be pastel as well, so you could price them accordingly.

Then there is the chance that some pattern morphs might bleed through and show up on a lucy. Personally I think the dirtier BELs like super mojos have more potential for this. I know I would love to see a pure white snake with a purple clown or spider or pinstripe pattern. I admire anyone willing to invest the time/money into a project like this and "think outside the box".

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I agree totally, its like getting a clean canvas to work with. the fun part is finding the key to unlocking its color. not only that , an earlier poster was talking about a 6 banger white snake to a normal. I say screw that, put that sixbanger with a simple recessive, and watch the hets you get to grow up to make some real one of a kind animals!!! White snakes are not only not dead ends, they are key to keeping up with the industriesgrowth...IMO anyways!!:rage:

Hey, I'm looking forward to making my first white snakes in just 2 years. They're powerhouses.

coldblooded--the gene pool of Leos is now restricted. It's more important than ever to set up a registry for them! Leos are now 'free' to be made into a truly domesticated species, if they are managed properly.

I've been rooting for someone to set up a ball python registry. I don't want to have to do it. I will, if no one else does it in the next 5 years, but I REALLY don't want to. Eventually, ball python importation is going to go out of vogue--it won't be worth doing anymore, unless the animals are aberrant. You can't be breeding animals successfully for temperament and fixed traits if you're adding in wild blood randomly, and I really see that being where ball python breeding will inevitably head.

Right now, it's all about the morphs--but eventually there is going to be a demand for something more than just pure looks. Who's going to want a wild snake of uncertain disposition if they can get one that's been bred to be a great pet? That's true whether it's white or not. ;)

Just think of having a super lesser that you breed with a lesser super pastel. Now take any white snake you get and raise them up and breed them to a visual clown. Now you have 6-10 lesser pastels het 100 % het clown. Go back to a clown and see how many lesser pastel clowns you get... Now have fun after that..... A BEL can be a nice start to a project.. not a end!! I love opening my bin and seeing my BEL look up at me.. :) she always comes out to play. :)

Absolutely not! I think they are a nice place to START some cool projects.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

As a breeder do I think the all white snake is a dead end?? NO!!

Who wouldn't want a Super Lesser Super pastel Super Enchi might be an all white snake but with a few normals your sitting on a breeder powerhouse.. So genetically they are no different than any other super.. The problem comes in knowing what is hiding behind the white.. Is it a super Lesser Pastel spider or just a super lesser Pastel ect..

As a collector do I think they are a dead end?..NO! Any one that thinks so hasn't had the pleasure of pulling a tub open and seeing that little white gem laying there, or seeing one in the egg..just my two cents..

I love BEL's and anyone that doesn't I'll be happy to take everyone they have off their hands at no charge.. LOL

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I agree 100%!!!:D

I'm new to the Morph world but, I'm getting a Lesser to have my own Lucy. I'd rather breed it over buying it! It'd mean more to me!!! But, I fell they're beautiful and will always remain a wanted snake!

ok, well thanks for all the input. I agree that theres a lot more to be done withthe Lucy's, lets see what is created in the next couple of years...should be very interesting.

Becky

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Originally Posted by shorty54

I'm new to the Morph world but, I'm getting a Lesser to have my own Lucy. I'd rather breed it over buying it! It'd mean more to me!!! But, I fell they're beautiful and will always remain a wanted snake!

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same here... i'm also counting the days for eggs to be laid from my lesser x lesser .. i feel making them mean a lot more than just buying them :D

Not all Leucys are created equal I submit. I have some "out if the box" white snakes in the works this season. I have a pretty good shot at a Leucy Het Caramel this season. It is a steeping stone to a Caramel Leucy the following year. I am not sure if it will be a fantastic visual -- but a male would rock and roll in any breeders collection working with Caramels or Ultramels. :bow:

White snakes are homozygous -- and that is always a great thing!!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Not all Leucys are created equal I submit. I have some "out if the box" white snakes in the works this season. I have a pretty good shot at a Leucy Het Caramel this season. It is a steeping stone to a Caramel Leucy the following year. I am not sure if it will be a fantastic visual -- but a male would rock and roll in any breeders collection working with Caramels or Ultramels. :bow:

White snakes are homozygous -- and that is always a great thing!!! :gj:

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I think we are going to start seeing some Lucy's getting a little color and pattern bred back into them.. Look at the Polar..

Exciting non the less

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Originally Posted by TrpnBils

Don't listen to this guy...

I'll give you $10 apiece for them :D

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50 :D lol

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Not all Leucys are created equal I submit. I have some "out if the box" white snakes in the works this season. I have a pretty good shot at a Leucy Het Caramel this season. It is a steeping stone to a Caramel Leucy the following year. I am not sure if it will be a fantastic visual -- but a male would rock and roll in any breeders collection working with Caramels or Ultramels. :bow:

White snakes are homozygous -- and that is always a great thing!!! :gj:

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we have some pretty cool lucy projects comming up:

:rolleyes:;)

I don't believe that a super pastel super enchi super lesser has any value beyond a super lesser.. EXCEPT as a breeder.

I don't buy ANY snakes just for breeding potential. If they don't look their 'value', I have no interest in them.

The only 'het' anything in my collection looked good enough already for me to spend what I spent on it if it was a normal.

Yes, that also means for the moment, I stay far away from pretty much all recessive traits, especially ones that people currently spend big bucks on.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I don't believe that a super pastel super enchi super lesser has any value beyond a super lesser.. EXCEPT as a breeder.

I don't buy ANY snakes just for breeding potential. If they don't look their 'value', I have no interest in them.

The only 'het' anything in my collection looked good enough already for me to spend what I spent on it if it was a normal.

Yes, that also means for the moment, I stay far away from pretty much all recessive traits, especially ones that people currently spend big bucks on.

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I am sorry to hear that...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I think we are going to start seeing some Lucy's getting a little color and pattern bred back into them.. Look at the Polar..

Exciting non the less

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Very exciting...the things you can dream.

I DON'T THINK THEY ARE AND CAN'T WAIT TO ADD ONE TO MY COLLECTION! MY QUESTION IS DO IVORY CARRY THE SAME WEIGHT AS BELS?:confused::confused::confused:

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Originally Posted by BEasy119

I DON'T THINK THEY ARE AND CAN'T WAIT TO ADD ONE TO MY COLLECTION! MY QUESTION IS DO IVORY CARRY THE SAME WEIGHT AS BELS?:confused::confused::confused:

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with the super stripe, puma, and highway ball stuff out there I would say so. BTW ivories are not all white when mixed with other morphs look up the ivory enchi.