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Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
I have a female enigma leopard gecko who has started exhibiting some very disturbing behaviors this week. She has the enigma issues (circling and bad aim when feeding) but she also has this VERY obvious divot in her skull, right at the top of her cranium (she came to me like this).
She as recently begun to bite her tail and back legs by circling around like a C and just nomming away. Her tail already shows some damage and I'm worried she's going to damage herself or give herself an infection. she's been getting less interested in food but will still eat. When she comes out of this behavior she almost seems kind of disoriented.
The only thing I can come up with is brain damage or seizure behavior. Has anyone heard of anything like this? If I can't solve this issue I think the kindest thing would be to put her down.. I can't watch her 24/7 to make sure she's not chewing on herself.
She weighed 22 grams at last weigh in. hot spot is 91F. Shes fed dusted dubias and meal worms 2x or 3x a week. She now has a water dish in. Her substrate is papertowel and her hide is plastic.
I am not happy that I have to come here for an issue with another animal, but if the info this thread provides can help me or someone else that is all that matters.
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I have seen another case of self mutilation in leopard geckos and it was due to a wound being irritated (he kept opening up the wound and wouldn't let it heal). I am not sure what happened to said gecko, though :(
Has she had trouble shedding? Is there anything that may be irritating or skin or stressing her out? I know my enigmas get a little neurotic when stressed but I've never had one self mutilate before. Perhaps try darkening her enclosure (if it isn't already dark).
I would bump up the heat to 95 - 97F, you may see an increase in appetite.
I wish you the best with her :(
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
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Originally Posted by coldblooded
I have seen another case of self mutilation in leopard geckos and it was due to a wound being irritated (he kept opening up the wound and wouldn't let it heal). I am not sure what happened to said gecko, though :(
Has she had trouble shedding? Is there anything that may be irritating or skin or stressing her out? I know my enigmas get a little neurotic when stressed but I've never had one self mutilate before. Perhaps try darkening her enclosure (if it isn't already dark).
I would bump up the heat to 95 - 97F, you may see an increase in appetite.
I wish you the best with her :(
If she has shed, i can't tell (no flakes around, not on her toes or anything) but i thought i saw her getting dull maybe 10 days ago. Her enclosure is very dark and very calm. What would you say would be the best method to removing any offending shed?
I checked her over for mites or any bugs twice (crazy close up, this was my first thought).
I'll move her up to the top of the rack where its warmer.
Would giving her a soak in warm water possibly help?
Thank you for your advice
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Yep a good soak may help. I have never seen a leo self mutilate so I dont have much to offer the enigma I had was just a little special he would circle occasionally but nothing like your describing sorry I cant be of more help. I hope the little one pulls through for you.
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I would definitely try a soak and see if that helps. Hopefully she stops doing it!
I have seen someone make a "satellite hood" for a leo with a business card and some tape... hopefully it won't come to that.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
I just took her out to soak her, and i'm pretty sure she just had a seizure in my hands. She stiffined up completely, curled, back concave, mouth open, tail twitching. She has always been fine with handling its never been a stresser for her.
Shes having these full body flailing episodes followed by complete skeletal rigor, open mouth, closed eyes and twitching tail.
I will be making a call to Dr. Stall's office in the morning (exotic vet down in VA). But i don't think I can help her, i don't think anyone can..
I understand euthanisa methods for snakes, i have no idea how to humanely put a gecko down.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
I just took her out to soak her, and i'm pretty sure she just had a seizure in my hands. She stiffined up completely, curled, back concave, mouth open, tail twitching. She has always been fine with handling its never been a stresser for her.
Shes having these full body flailing episodes followed by complete skeletal rigor, open mouth, closed eyes and twitching tail.
I will be making a call to Dr. Stall's office in the morning (exotic vet down in VA). But i don't think I can help her, i don't think anyone can..
I understand euthanisa methods for snakes, i have no idea how to humanely put a gecko down.
Oh, no.. I am so sorry. She definitely sounds like she is in some serious distress.
When I have had to put a gecko down that was in a bad way, I cooled her for several hours in the fridge (in a sealed ziplock bag) before putting her in the freezer. Before I put her in the freezer she was completely unresponsive and appeared to be in a deep sleep (cold coma?)..
I'm so sorry, again. That must be have been painful see :(..
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldblooded
Oh, no.. I am so sorry. She definitely sounds like she is in some serious distress.
When I have had to put a gecko down that was in a bad way, I cooled her for several hours in the fridge (in a sealed ziplock bag) before putting her in the freezer. Before I put her in the freezer she was completely unresponsive and appeared to be in a deep sleep (cold coma?)..
I'm so sorry, again. That must be have been painful see :(..
This is progressively seeming to get worse.
I'll call Dr. Stalls office in the morning, if she makes it that long i suppose. But I think I'm going to use a CO2 chamber, there is a store near my work that sells dry ice. I just can't fathom putting her in the fridge thats next to my computer and just sitting there even though I thought about it.
This just doesn't seem like a recoverable issue. She was always kind of small and runtly I think she was just one of the ones who weren't meant to make it and I happened to be the one to own her.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
This is progressively seeming to get worse.
I'll call Dr. Stalls office in the morning, if she makes it that long i suppose. But I think I'm going to use a CO2 chamber, there is a store near my work that sells dry ice. I just can't fathom putting her in the fridge thats next to my computer and just sitting there even though I thought about it.
This just doesn't seem like a recoverable issue. She was always kind of small and runtly I think she was just one of the ones who weren't meant to make it and I happened to be the one to own her.
I have used a CO2 chamber before. It seems to take a while with reptiles :( I have no idea if they are in pain or not during, but it was too hard for me to watch them gasp for air.
Some of them just don't thrive, it is definitely hard. You have my condolences :(
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldblooded
I have used a CO2 chamber before. It seems to take a while with reptiles :( I have no idea if they are in pain or not during, but it was too hard for me to watch them gasp for air.
Some of them just don't thrive, it is definitely hard. You have my condolences :(
i checked on her this morning and it seemed like she was in the middle of another seizure episode.. When i disturbed her she went into a full fledged seizure episode. She seems like she is distressed when this happens. (Shes an eclipse eye so i can't see where her eyes are looking though). But its not pretty to watch. I may take a video later for educational purposes.
If she is still with me when I get home, I think I'm going to end her suffering.. Its not fair to her.
Coldblooded, based on what you have said I think the cold coma and the freezer may be the kindest option.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
i checked on her this morning and it seemed like she was in the middle of another seizure episode.. When i disturbed her she went into a full fledged seizure episode. She seems like she is distressed when this happens. (Shes an eclipse eye so i can't see where her eyes are looking though). But its not pretty to watch. I may take a video later for educational purposes.
If she is still with me when I get home, I think I'm going to end her suffering.. Its not fair to her.
Coldblooded, based on what you have said I think the cold coma and the freezer may be the kindest option.
if you bring her to any local vet they should have a department or side office for euthinasia... i think that would be the best way to do it... but than again i dont know if you would really wanna pay that kinda money for something you can do on your own... well my condoleces... i hope she goes peacefully.:(
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrgbb
if you bring her to any local vet they should have a department or side office for euthinasia... i think that would be the best way to do it... but than again i dont know if you would really wanna pay that kinda money for something you can do on your own... well my condoleces... i hope she goes peacefully.:(
I have been under the impression that heart stick administration of drugs is the best for reptiles, but on a 22 gram gecko can they make the shot the first time? I worry that it would cause her a lot of unnecessary undue stress to drive her to a vets office, have her be in a strange room and handled by strange people.
I am prepared to do whatever I need to do (money isn't the issue thank goodness) I just don't want to cause her anymore pain unless i HAVE to.
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So sorry to read this... I read that using Co2 for killing is NOT recommended for reptiles, I don't remember why but I wouldn't do it. I think the freezer would be the best method if you have no other choice.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
I have been under the impression that heart stick administration of drugs is the best for reptiles, but on a 22 gram gecko can they make the shot the first time? I worry that it would cause her a lot of unnecessary undue stress to drive her to a vets office, have her be in a strange room and handled by strange people.
I am prepared to do whatever I need to do (money isn't the issue thank goodness) I just don't want to cause her anymore pain unless i HAVE to.
yea i understand... Your the only one that can decide what to do. I guess the cool down meathod would be the best method for not causing any un-needed stress. Well goodluck to you and again my condolences.:(
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
i checked on her this morning and it seemed like she was in the middle of another seizure episode.. When i disturbed her she went into a full fledged seizure episode. She seems like she is distressed when this happens. (Shes an eclipse eye so i can't see where her eyes are looking though). But its not pretty to watch. I may take a video later for educational purposes.
If she is still with me when I get home, I think I'm going to end her suffering.. Its not fair to her.
Coldblooded, based on what you have said I think the cold coma and the freezer may be the kindest option.
It sounds like it's time, then. I wonder what is triggering the seizures. How long have you had her? How old is she? You mentioned the dent in her skull, I wonder if it is some sort of old injury that caused brain damage..
Again, I am terribly sorry. :(
As for the euthanasia, I have found the cool down/freezer method to be the best option for something as small as a gecko. They are totally unresponsive when pulled from the fridge (no reaction to pokes, prods, no eye movement, appear to be asleep. I don't even notice respiratory movement.) and freeze quickly due to their small size. At 22g it won't take long. I would, too, would be concerned about the stress involved at the vets office as well as the accuracy of the needle to the heart/pain involved beforehand.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldblooded
It sounds like it's time, then. I wonder what is triggering the seizures. How long have you had her? How old is she? You mentioned the dent in her skull, I wonder if it is some sort of old injury that caused brain damage..
Again, I am terribly sorry. :(
As for the euthanasia, I have found the cool down/freezer method to be the best option for something as small as a gecko. They are totally unresponsive when pulled from the fridge (no reaction to pokes, prods, no eye movement, appear to be asleep. I don't even notice respiratory movement.) and freeze quickly due to their small size. At 22g it won't take long. I would, too, would be concerned about the stress involved at the vets office as well as the accuracy of the needle to the heart/pain involved beforehand.
To answer the first section:
I've had her for about 4 months. I got her along with another gecko (solid grey, can't remember the morph) they were within 2 grams of each other and I found it appropriate to house them together for the time being. Once i started noticing the grey one getting much larger and starting to bully her they were separated immediately. She is in a 16quart tub in my rack, kept identical to all of my other leopard geckos. She came to me at about 10 grams. I did not notice the divit on her skull when i first picked her up (which is my fault entirely). I had picked her up as a pet, not a breeder so it was to me at the time a cosmetic issue and as long as it didn't effect her I was ok with it.
She's somewhere around 6ish months old, maybe a little younger.
I believe the defect to be congenital, not an injury. I'm basing this on the fact that if something had fallen on her head, it would have killed her(at the size she would have been) , not given her the divit.
Shes been an enthusiastic eater, she just never really grew. Her ex room mate" weighed 36 grams when i traded her off and just LOVED to eat. Some people i showed her (grey) to suspected her of being gravid (which she wasnt) she was just fat and loved to eat.
She still has a nice fat tail for her size, just isnt very robust. I believe in the wild she would have been one of the ones to not make it.
As of last night, she wasn't walking properly either. She's using her wrists to move (hands folded backwards) to walk, and no longer putting her feet down to walk normally.
My best guess as to what is happening is that her brain is growing and is pressing into the divit, but with the problem in her skull it isn't growing normally. Brain swelling or equivalent, or something like hydrocephaly where the brain just has too much pressure on it and is interfering with its function.
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I think that is very likely that your theory is correct. Also, the only sort of old injury I can think of that could cause a dent would be clutch mate aggression, but I think it is more likely to be a birth defect. Poor thing..
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
I got home from work a little while ago and found her mostly unresponsive except after a poke or prod. She had another seizure and got to the point where she wasn't even blinking.
I made the decision to put her to sleep, I couldn't stand to see her suffer with this as her seizures were getting more frequent and she was getting less responsive. I think I saved her and myself a great deal of pain and I hope this is something I never have to go through again as a pet owner.
I wanted to thank you all for your advice, especially you Coldblooded.
I hope thirteen can forgive me for this.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
I got home from work a little while ago and found her mostly unresponsive except after a poke or prod. She had another seizure and got to the point where she wasn't even blinking.
I made the decision to put her to sleep, I couldn't stand to see her suffer with this as her seizures were getting more frequent and she was getting less responsive. I think I saved her and myself a great deal of pain and I hope this is something I never have to go through again as a pet owner.
I wanted to thank you all for your advice, especially you Coldblooded.
I hope thirteen can forgive me for this.
You're very welcome, I wish it could have done something to help her :(
And don't ask for forgiveness, the greatest gift you could give her was to relieve her of suffering. I know it's hard to do, and I hope you never have to experience it again.
My condolences and RIP to your gecko :(
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Man, what a downer thread :( So sorry you had to go through this, OP. I think you did the right thing.
I've grown quite attached to the geckos I have and it was a very sad day when one of mine died a couple months ago. You have my condolences.
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I'm so sorry you and she had to go through this. You did the right thing though, hard as it was. It takes a lot to realize what is right and then actually do it, don't be too hard on yourself.
I have a gecko who has had a few (three that I know of) internal bleeds, she is wobbly now due to, I believe, brain damage from the lack of blood flow. I worry about her daily but, for right now, she is doing OK. The day will come when I may be faced with a similar decision, I only hope I can be as strong as you were...
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
This was a tough thread to read, but an important one, I believe. We have to be reminded that along with the joys of owning these wonderful creatures comes the painful responsibility of having to make decisions like this. It is times like this when we have to put the animal's pain/suffering ahead of our own and do what is right for them.
Hon, I believe you absolutely did the right thing...and all throughout the little gecko's life, you did the very best that could be done for her. Though it may have been short, her life was filled with warmth, security, and good food...which is heaven for them.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
This was a tough thread to read, but an important one, I believe. We have to be reminded that along with the joys of owning these wonderful creatures comes the painful responsibility of having to make decisions like this. It is times like this when we have to put the animal's pain/suffering ahead of our own and do what is right for them.
Hon, I believe you absolutely did the right thing...and all throughout the little gecko's life, you did the very best that could be done for her. Though it may have been short, her life was filled with warmth, security, and good food...which is heaven for them.
BAH!
Quote:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JLC again.
You said it perfectly, Judy.
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Re: Self harming behavior in leopard gecko
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
This was a tough thread to read, but an important one, I believe. We have to be reminded that along with the joys of owning these wonderful creatures comes the painful responsibility of having to make decisions like this. It is times like this when we have to put the animal's pain/suffering ahead of our own and do what is right for them.
Hon, I believe you absolutely did the right thing...and all throughout the little gecko's life, you did the very best that could be done for her. Though it may have been short, her life was filled with warmth, security, and good food...which is heaven for them.
I wanted to take this time to thank you all for your advice on this. Jfreels, JLC, Clementine, Mrgbb and especially ColdBlooded.
Even with the animals I've lost lately I'm not giving up my hobby. These creatures give me so much joy every time I look at them that I am thankful I am even aloud to have them at all. Especially with thanksgiving coming up we should all be thankful even if the animals aren't with us for very long.
Thanks guys.
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Hi there, sorry I'm late to this thread...
I am SO sorry for your loss. A very sad thread to read :( IMO putting her down was the right thing to do. Dr. Stahl is the best in the business we go there anytime we have problems.
A couple of things I did want to mention just in case since nobody else had mentioned it, I wonder if impaction could have been causing some of the initial problems. Females at six months of age can start ovulating even when you don't want them to, and can lead to impaction or the egg itself "bursting" inside the gecko or absorbing in the wrong area. The enigma gene totally causes spinning and circles, but some of the other signs seem a bit strange to me even with an extreme enigma case. It could also have been a severe case of calcium deficiency causing the shaking and eventually to seizures. She may not have been able to absorb it properly or severe damage may have been done to her before you got her since she already had the dent... but for future reference you can supplement liquid calcium to help with leopards that need quick help.
However, with the Enigma gene and the dent in her head I am sure everyone is correct and the most likely cause. I guess it really doesn't matter anymore, you did the right thing and I don't think there is anything you could have done to save her. Take what joy you can in giving her a good life for the short time she was able to have it. Sometimes that's the best we can do.
Sorry again for your loss :(
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