The old debate... Affection??

Hey guys !

I'm new here and I hope to find people who are into their balls as I am ! I have an 09' Pastel male around 2 1/2 feet long and I love him to death..

I really want some oppinions about affection.
I have heard the whole "snakes deal with us", "they can't" and so on but I really believe otherwise and I hope I'm not alone on this.

Zeus (my pastel) is a real lover boy. He will simply be relaxing soaking up my body heat and out of nowhere he will climb up my body and "nuzzle" my face or bump his head into my face until I begin to stroke from head to tail, then he will curl up on my chest while I stroke him. As soon as I stop he will start with the "nuzzle" or bumping again till I begin to stroke him.

I know many say it's because of body heat but he was already soaking up my heat while laying along my side or where he was laying.

has anyone seen signs of affection from their snakes before? Or anything like what I'm calling affection?

I know I'm not crazy with what I'm seeing in Zeus.
I'm just wondering if anyone else believes they can show love?!?

thanks guys !

nikkie

I don't really think that they feel emotion in the same way that we do, however I do have some snakes that really enjoy being held and always try to come out when I enter the room. They are pretty basic creatures but I do think sometimes we underestimate them.

Here's an old thread that is still pretty popular and frequently pops back up on the active list:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...snake-loves-me

You can read TONS of opinions on this matter right away. ;) I'm sure folks will chime in here as well, as it is a topic of endless debate.

My personal opinion on the matter: I think it is the height of hubris for humans to INSIST that any creature can or can't feel any particular emotion. We simply can't know. But my BELIEF is that snakes are extremely basic, simple creatures that don't experience emotion in any definition we would use. I do believe they can feel comfortable, secure, insecure, hungry, frightened...but really little-to-nothing beyond that.

I wounder if its more of an inquisitive curiosity that gets some of the reactions that we classify as emotions? My wife's king (Nibbles) watches us when we are home and comes up when we are opening her cage. I think I have even caught her watching "Sons of Anarchy" with us?:confused:

These are my thoughts on the matter:
Yes it is hard to hear that your snake doesn't love you or even want to be held by you. It really kind of de-flates your ego. But you know what? I love mine anyway. I have fifteen pet snakes right now, and each and every one has it's own personality. I hold mine for 10 or 15 minutes at a time once or twice a week.
They don't mind the attention from me, and I can indulge my fantasy that they love me. :D

Sure, cats and dogs and ferrets, and even rats show more affection, but that doesn't bother me. I actually have all these things as pets, and I still wouldn't give up my snakes. They are very calming and soothing to me, and they are good for my high blood pressure as well, so you could say they are a medical necessity for me.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

.... and they are good for my high blood pressure as well, so you could say they are a medical necessity for me.

Gale

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Hehe...try getting your health care provider to cover the cost of buying and keeping them! Or claim them on your income taxes as medical expenses. :giggle: :D

That's too funny. I swear I have caught Zeus watching tv at times as well ! It doesn't bother me that snakes don't feel emotion, I have just been seeing a mushy sweet side to Zeus I have never seen in any other snake I have owned..

I was more or less just wondering if anyone else has seen this nuzzling and head butting with their Balls as well?! And if not them showing "love" then what is it?

Judy, I'm still working on that, paperwork you know.

Nikkie, several of mine like to watch TV or spend time with me playing the computer.

Most of mine even give me kisses, which makes my fantasy even easier to indulge in. :P

Gale

I believe that snakes are base creatures and everything falls into something to eat, something that is a threat, or procreation. I don't believe my snakes believe they can eat me, nor do they think of procreation either (I hope :O ) When I first bring a new one home it is likely they see me as a predator that will eat them. This is the interesting part that somewhere along they way they over come the fear that I will eat them. That I want to say trust for lack od a better term, is what is being discussed here. There is a point where my snakes no longer see me as a threat but as something else. I wish I had a word for what that is but I don't really.

oye vay haha here comes the war!!!



http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8...warpopcorn.gif

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

...This is the interesting part that somewhere along they way they over come the fear that I will eat them. That I want to say trust for lack od a better term, is what is being discussed here. There is a point where my snakes no longer see me as a threat but as something else. I wish I had a word for what that is but I don't really.

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Is it "trust" if their perception shifts from you being a potential predator to simply being a big warm squishy tree they can climb on? :P I believe we become nothing more than non-threatening parts of their environment. But...I'm very happy to be that part! :yes: :D

I feel that as your snake gets more comfortable with you, it thinks of you not as a threat anymore, but as a life source. They can't eat, they can't drink, they can't live without you, and I think they seem to get that after awhile. I don't know, maybe I am crazy. :) just my opinion. I have seen the nuxzling a little bit though, my ball seems to like going through my hair, and curling up on my shoulders, but could just be forbheat. I like to think it is affection though :)

I wonder if they like watching tv because of the heat that they radiate. Mine stare at it whenever they are out, maybe they are like omg what is that huge heat blob sitting in the room.

I sometimes get the feeling that Hera likes to lick me when she is wrapped around my neck, I know she is just smelling everything but it still seems affectionate. And it tickles!

They dont show affection as they lack that ability due to small brain.

They show interest in us due to smell and warmth. If pissing them off and getting bit is affection then there ya go.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Most of mine even give me kisses, which makes my fantasy even easier to indulge in. :P

Gale

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Mine give kisses tooooooo!! Freaks my bf out (he doesn't like them near his face).

My first bp used to bump his little face right against my lips when I'd make kissy noises.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Is it "trust" if their perception shifts from you being a potential predator to simply being a big warm squishy tree they can climb on? :P I believe we become nothing more than non-threatening parts of their environment. But...I'm very happy to be that part! :yes: :D

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Agreed, whatever changes it is the change the humans place human emotion upon them. It is hard to understand how a snake relates to the enviroment they have a sence we don't (detecting IR radiation) and one that is very very different than ours (Sturrip and anvil for vibration) They must see us as different from the couch but not as something to fear. I don't think we can place a name on it but that is the basis of a 'relationship' I have one guy that will allow me to poke around jis mouth head eyes and not be bothered. My partner cannot approch his head at all. I don't know what that is but I like it. :P

ive caught mine watching tv too!.. that is definitely it.. ive actually done little experiments like turning the "door" of his hide away from the tv.. i have my tank blacked out and my tv is at an angle so one hide has a clear view the other cant see any part of the tv.. if its night he will lay directly against the glass and watch and if its day he will move to the visible hide and watch either in it or on top of it depending on were the door is facing..

now i know the most likely explanation is its moving and making noise and hes keeping an eye on it OR he thinks its feeding time.. he thinks every noise is feeding time lol

but they unfortunately dont have emotions in my opinion.. they arent social animals and thats why they thrive in an enclosure they have completely to themselves.. even in the wild they are only together a couple times a year to mate then go back to be loners..

i want a snake with the brain of a dog lol

I don't think they feel affection for anything...including us. I just don't think they're wired to do so.

My reasoning is this: You wouldn't go around intentionally hurting people that you showed affection for unless you were mentally unstable or something like that. If, say, my rainbow boas are doing fine as I'm holding them I might falsely assume that they "like me" but then they almost invariably turn around and latch onto my hand, my arm, or some other body part.

They may tolerate us, but that's the extent of it. I've been a question several times that we've probably all heard a lot: "Why snakes?" (or a variation of it, such as "What's wrong with you???"). One of the things that I love about them is that there is no such thing as a domesticated snake...if you work with them and you screw up or do something that they don't like, you're going to pay for it.

Some are more docile than others obviously, but they haven't been in captivity long enough to be domesticated. If you're working with a snake that tolerates you and you slip up, they'll bite you just as willingly as if you're a large, scary predator in the wild.

When you approach this kind of topic, you have to first put your emotions aside and then ask yourself the question: WHY?

Now, brief disclaimer, I am not claiming to have the slightest inkling of what is happening inside that tiny brain of theirs, but I am relying on what we know about animal behavior as well about the structures of the vertebrate brain.

For a snake, or rather, a ball python in particular -- what would be the advantage of higher emotions such as love (or, rather, bonding/affection)? Animals that display this behavior are usually animals that live in herds, packs, or groups and are warm blooded (higher metabolism, more oxygen to the brain, self regulating temperatures...). Bonding is an important role in animals that live and/or travel in groups.

Snakes, along with most reptiles, are purely solitary creatures and realistically do not seem capable of any sort of higher processing. Why? Because being instinctual creatures has been what has let them survive and evolve for millions of years. There has been no need to develop the parts of the brain that control these higher emotions because there is no need for these higher emotions in their lives (and would probably just complicate them, anyway). Then, the question is debatable if their brains could develop the ways ours have due to them being cold blooded. (I have probably butchered a lot of concepts here but this is the general idea I'm trying to get across. I've already wrote a short novel it seems :P. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable and eloquent than I am can further expand on this)

So, that's how I feel about it. Does it change how I feel about them? Nooo! I still love them and I feel privileged to be able to own them and appreciate them for what they are. I'm also very glad that I am able to give them a stress free existence. There's my $1.50 on the subject ;)

My opinions on the matter is that snakes don't have emotions. Or at least anything we can call emotions. i believe that their world revolves almost entirly on instinct.

There is scientific research that their brains lack the ability to have emotion.
I think that we want them to have emotions so bad and love us that we convince ourselves that they really do.
I love my snake. And he helped me overcome my depression and still to this day eases my anxiety or calms me when I am upset. I can't explain it.
But Just knowing that he sees me as a nice tree radiating heat. Is enough for me. My love is enough. He doesnt have to love me back for me to love him. :P

well snakes have basic emotions, i know mine can be content, scared, or pissed off lol. as far a love or anything like that, no.

as far as snakes showing affection, i highly doubt it, just observing the 20 some snakes I have. same reasons as above.

Ok so the battle continues... LoL jk

Well does anyone know what the head bumping is then?
Is he trying to see if he can move me out of the way?
it's odd, I have never seen a python act in such a way...

Typically when I handle my snakes, which I do daily, I always am quickly to wash my hands and anything the snake was in contact with. Typically I'll take them out in the yard for sun which is easy with no cleanup, but far from cuddling with them. When I was a kid I would always play with my snakes, until I learned about all the diseases rats carry and snakes have on their body, so I really don't handle my snakes much more than I really need to. Now I disinfect everything almost every other day, and even wash my snakes with a very dilute listerine. As for their emotional state.... well snakes simply don't have emotions, but it doesn't take away from anything.

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Originally Posted by NikkiePastel

Ok so the battle continues... LoL jk

Well does anyone know what the head bumping is then?
Is he trying to see if he can move me out of the way?
it's odd, I have never seen a python act in such a way...

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its a snake just being a snake, he could be trying to move you, burrow "into you" and he not exactly understanding he can't, might be just seeing what you are.... affection, nah.

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Originally Posted by Generationshell

There is scientific research that their brains lack the ability to have emotion.
I think that we want them to have emotions so bad and love us that we convince ourselves that they really do.
I love my snake. And he helped me overcome my depression and still to this day eases my anxiety or calms me when I am upset. I can't explain it.
But Just knowing that he sees me as a nice tree radiating heat. Is enough for me. My love is enough. He doesnt have to love me back for me to love him. :P

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I agree with you totally. What I am curious about were you ever not a 'tree' but something to fear? And if so when did that change and what was that change? I know that it is some sort of learned response that isn't an emotion but it is recognition of non hostility or some snakie varation right? I suggest that emaotion and affection isn't the right words but if it was no longer sees me as a threat or as something to fear. I personally would say of my 7 all but 2 absolutely do. Oddly 2 of mine still react to my motion and presence with fear and hiding one of mine disregaurds me when I change his water and often after I have him out (I always change the water and wash the bowl out) he will stop to drink on the way back in while I am holding him.

I dont think they necessarily feel emotions or display affection or love. But they are recognizing a mutual relationship. I have a female that is such a personality, like no other ball python Ive seen so far. Is this because I got her so young and have raised her myself? maybe. I open the tank she may be hiding 1/3 in her hot or cold hide. The first thing she thinks is, food undoubtedly. If there is food, there is no mistaking it for her, she will come and get it. If there is no food she quickly catches on and comes out of kill mode. Ive even went as far as opening the tank and offering my hand as if it were at rat when she was hungry, but she doesn't bite unless she smells them. I can tell she recognizes. Another thing I have tried doing is taking off the lid and standing to watch her and what she does. 90% of the time when I do this, she will raise her head and go into kill mode, realize no food and start to investigate in my direction, she will come out and look at me smell me. Is this affection or love? no. emotion? no. Its my snakes genuine curiosity of me(or she knows I serve food and is going to kindly wait), she doesnt fear me at all. I think they have more going on in the brain than we give them credit for.

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Originally Posted by SSR Regius

If there is food, there is no mistaking it for her, she will come and get it. If there is no food she quickly catches on and comes out of kill mode. Ive even went as far as opening the tank and offering my hand as if it were at rat when she was hungry, but she doesn't bite unless she smells them. I can tell she recognizes.

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That doesn't necessarily mean she recognizes you... that just means you don't smell like her food. Proof of that, for me, came when it took me 6 months to switch my rescued burm over from live rats to rabbits. She didn't "recognize" it as a rabbit...just didn't recognize it as something edible. Heck even right now I'm trying to switch 2 new balls over from live to frozen and they won't take it because they don't recognize the F/T as food.

If they really recognized you, you could rub a rat all over your hand and stick it in the tank without being bitten.