I need help...

I'm not going to go into a lot of details of how I found myself in this situation, I just need some help/advice/feedback on what to do now that I am here.

In July, I purchased 4 snakes off of a breeder listing here on kingsnake.com. The breeder was moving across the country and needed to sell the entire collection. We had been in communication and I offered to purchase racks and a few more animals off of the breeder. I drove across the state in August to meet the breeder and pick up the racks/animals. Upon arriving, the breeder asked if I could house the rest of the collection since there were no buyers. We agreed on a price for the racks, and if I was interested in purchasing the snakes, we would work out a price at a later time.

This is my fault: my collection went from 10 snakes to 27 because I agreed to house the animals and care for them. I realize this.

When I arrived back home, cleaned and assembled the racks, got the thermostats set up, it was time to inspect the "new" animals. Most of them were underfed and had stuck sheds. The breeder said that they needed some TLC so while this was an indication to me that they were not cared for 100% properly, I was not entirely surprised. Again, my fault and error.

In September, one of the snakes I originally purchased in July started displaying symptoms of an RI- open mouth breathing, mucus in the mouth, etc. Took her to an emergency vet, diagnosed with RI and received Baytril injections. Completed the first 2 week cycle, no improvement. Took her back to the Emergency Vet, they sedated her to obtain a blood sample and she never woke up. I emailed the breeder about this and the response I received wasn't as concerned as I expected. Another red flag that I missed.

A few weeks later, my spider started displaying the same symptoms. This was part of my original collection so I became VERY worried. Took him to a different vet, diagnosed with RI. Ok not entirely surprising since one snake had it and even though proper precautions were taken, perhaps I missed something- who knows. Anyway, ran a 2 week cycle of Baytril, and set up an appointment with the only herp vet in the area. End of treatment, no real improvement. New vet appointment comes and he is diagnosed with pseudomonas. Ran a 2 week cycle of vitamin and anti-biotic. At the end of this cycle, his mouth seemed to be better (no mucus or open mouth breathing) but his scales start to deteriorate. A few (2) of my OTHER snakes from my original collection and 2 from the purchase in July start to wheeze....

Take them to the vet, all diagnosed with pseudomonas and all given 2 week anti-biotic and vitamin shots. Since we've been going through this, the vet decided to do separate shots.

I have torn apart all of the racks and disinfected them. I've changed substrate from Aspen bedding to paper. I have 3 thermostats set up on my racks and a large humidifier in the room. I wash AND use a hang sanitizer between handling snakes. My spider is almost completely scale-less. I've started to soak him in an iodine solution for 30 minutes every other day when he gets his vitamin shot, and he is rubbed down with Neosporin nightly. Last night though, while checking on the other snakes, more are displaying symptoms. Almost all of them have an irritated mouth.

oh- and I haven't heard from the breeder since beginning of October but two nights ago I received an email asking for more money.

Last night was the last night of the latest round of anti-biotic and vitamins. I am at a complete loss of what to do. Like I said, I put myself in this position but... I need help.

post all of this to the board of inquiry on Fauna Classifieds. Read the rules first so you do it properly, but you will be able to get the most information there.

This is terrible :(

Ohhhhhh man. I'm at a bit of a loss myself. :( It sounds like a HORRIBLE situation! And most of these snakes still technically belong to the "breeder"???

Did the two of you make any arrangements about how YOU would be compensated for their care and feeding? That's an awful lot of mouths to feed and can get very expensive...not to mention all your time and energy keeping them warm and watered and clean.

And now this? It rather boggles my mind that this guy would be asking you for money at this time. But without any prior agreements as to their care and compensation for you....and without any prior agreements about how to handle this sort of medical nightmare scenario....you may be up a creek, I'm very sorry to say.

I won't go into all the things you should have done differently. I'm quite sure all that is well branded into your mind by now.

I wish I had some more concrete suggestions...mostly what I have is questions. But here is what little I can offer:

First and foremost...I would separate out any and all snakes that still appear healthy and get them someplace completely away from the sick animals. It may already be too late :( but some might be saved. Get them into an entirely different house if at all possible (one that does NOT have other reptiles this may be passed onto)...but at the very least, into another room as far away as possible from the sick ones. I would also not mix his snakes with yours in this separation...so you may need to really get creative on how you segregate them.

Second...I've never heard of this particular disease or its treatment...never heard of a snake losing all its scales during a treatment for illness. Did the vet recommend the iodine soaks and antibiotic ointment? If not, I would consider stopping that unless a vet says differently. All that stuff may be very irritating to the skin and might cause more harm than good. Not to mention all the chemicals that might be absorbed into the delicate skin, causing an overdose of meds in the long run.

The loss of scales is not an "injury" in the strictest sense of the words. It just leaves the delicate skin beneath more vulnerable to scratches and cuts. Unless you're medicating actual sores...in which case, I simply don't dare offer any more advice than "talk to the vet" some more. :(

It sounds like you're doing the best you can with a horrible situation. I sincerely hope the sick snakes are able to be saved...and that you don't lose your entire collection due to this.

Please keep us updated and we'll be here for you as best we can.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

post all of this to the board of inquiry on Fauna Classifieds. Read the rules first so you do it properly, but you will be able to get the most information there.

This is terrible :(

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Just to clarify this a bit...in case the OP isn't familiar with the BOI (Board of Inquiry). The BOI is where you can go to collect information and suggestions on how you might legally pursue the "breeder" who left you stuck in this horrible situation. You'll have to be willing to give the "breeder's" name and share as much proof as you can about how all this came about. They won't help with medical issues. (although there are always kind souls who try to help in all ways...that is not the ultimate purpose of the BOI)

Yeah I Don't want to be Mr. Hindsight right now, you already know what you could have changed.

I agree with Judy, just try and separate all the snakes in the best way possible to it is easier to control and treat the issues. Problems like this do spread quickly, what was the time frame that it took for all your snakes to display the symptoms?

Hi,

What anti-biotic are you using? Have there been any cultures done?

Could you take some pictures of the spider to give us a clearer idea of what condition he is in?

The main question I see being raised on the BOI is that there was no sign of illness for two months.


dr del

Bit more details:

Original purchase- $3550
1.0 Cinnamon 100% het albino
0.1 Cinnamon 100% het albino
0.2 50% het snows
with a "free" 0.1 2500 gram normal

The next purchase when I drove out there: agreed on $1400, paid $950 upfront
2 Habitat System racks
1 old Vision rack
0.1 Axanthic
0.1 pastel 100% ghost
1.0 pastel 100% ghost

The other snakes all belong to the breeder. Oh AND he sent me home with two eggs that needed incubated. Those have since hatched. Agreed that the purchase of animals would lower because of the feeding/housing/etc, and he said he'd "compensate definitely". Now I haven't asked him for money but since he learned that the two eggs have hatched, he emailed saying that "we should probably talk about prices and payment"

When the snake died, I mentioned in the email that we where still within the 30 days from the purchase time and if he had known any of them were sick. He blew off the point about the 30 day period and said that "he didn't think they were but they could have and not shown anything until after they were shipped". Says to me he knew something was wrong..

Now the iodine and neosporin treatments.. No, the vet did not recommend it however I've got almost every book VPI has written and researched a few other sites. For dermatitis infections (which this appears to be at least in the spider), that is what it recommends.

I don't want to post a BOI (at least at the moment) because he is no longer breeding or interacting. I have thought about this though, but because most of it was done via phone... have no idea what they can even do..

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Originally Posted by steveboos

Yeah I Don't want to be Mr. Hindsight right now, you already know what you could have changed.

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yeah.. hindsight is a real b****... :( and trust me, I'm beating myself up about this as it is..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

What anti-biotic are you using? Have there been any cultures done?

Could you take some pictures of the spider to give us a clearer idea of what condition he is in?

The main question I see being raised on the BOI is that there was no sign of illness for two months.


dr del

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Original on the snake that died was Baytril. Next was Cefotaxime. Now we are using another one that starts with a "C".. to be honest, I don't remember how it is spelled and I'm at work. The vet has done two cultures on the spider with each coming back positive for the bacteria. The first illness was displayed within 30 days; the snake died on the 30th day from the original purchase.

would you be willing to post pic of your spider..I'd be interested to see what that looks like..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

would you be willing to post pic of your spider..I'd be interested to see what that looks like..

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yes I can and will do that when I get home. I want this to be something that others can get some assistance with- hopefully I get this cleared up and it can be a good source of information for others.

Oh wow.

This is overwhelming for sure. I truly feel for you. What a mess :(

Seems like this "breeder" pulled one on you. He might have not meant for this to happen, but the point that the snakes were in "rough" condition does not give me confidence in that person.

I do have to ask, did you practice quarantine ? I suppose not, since your original snakes have the same problem. It will be hard to PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT that it was the breeders snakes that brought in the disease and that they snakes had it before you got them. Even harder to prove that the breeder was aware of all this.

What I would do is put everything into writing. Every little detail you remember. Dates, possible pictures, EVERYTHING. Dates of Vet visits, receipts, letters from vet, Anything at all that pertains to this mess. Write down what was agreed on, even if it wasn't in writing. Keep emails, etc.

Present to the breeder. Try to work this out on friendly terms first, see if he will be reasonable once presented with your case.

If not, you might have to

1. pay up what was agreed on
2. not pay and hope for the best
3. take this to court

Obviously, reaching an agreement that you both are comfortable with would be the best !!

If the breeder is completely blowing you off, even the fact that the snakes were in bad condition, well, then it IS time to take that to the BOI. There may be other people that had previous dealings with this breeder, you might get a better picture of the character of that breeder, etc.

Good luck. I really truly feel for you. This is exhausting and heartbreaking...