Breeding siblings

Is it ok or is it a bad idea?

some ppl do cuz snakes cant really inbreed but i dont. it dosent seem right to me

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Originally Posted by pixie6710

some ppl do cuz snakes cant really inbreed but i dont. it dosent seem right to me

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Why can't snakes be affected by the same genetic difficulties as other creatures when siblings interbreed? They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

Snakes are non-migratory animals and are not affect so much by inbreeding. Most of the "defects" you see are probably gene related, such as the spider wobble and caramel kinking. Inbreeding is prominent in wild populations and has probably been going on much longer than any of us have been here. I'm not saying negative effects can't pop up, but it's unlikely.

Without the inbreeding of snakes Recessives would be non existent. As so would many of these double,triple,an so on mutations

Yeah i wouldn't worry about it for anything more than a moral standpoint. Breeders have been putting siblings together for decades with no inherent issues. Some people say it leads to a shorter lifespan, but that hasn't been proved.

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Originally Posted by EverettAshley

Is it ok or is it a bad idea?

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my friends dad breeds snakes i dont want to besides i only have 1:snake:

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Originally Posted by eracer

Why can't snakes be affected by the same genetic difficulties as other creatures when siblings interbreed? They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

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Yeah, I don't know the specifics but reptiles genetics are not affected like mammal genetics are by inbreeding. The only bad I know of that can come of reptile inbreeding is if there is a pre-existing fault in the genetics (i.e. a heart condition or something) then it will not get filtered out if they are inbred.

I'm not totally against line breeding, but I try to minimize it and keep fresh blood in my lines just in case.

All living things are affected by inbreeding to include reptiles. Genetics are the same no matter what. People are going to believe what they want to and do what they want to. So if you want to believe that reptiles are different then by all means go ahead and treat them like they are different. Just don't cry when you are producing freezer animals!

It’s too easy to research a topic with today’s technology. If you do a quick search you can read many articles discussing the facts of inbreeding.

Even the big breeders will tell you that it is better to out cross than to inbreed. They have bred enough to see what the results are.

Tightly inbreeding lines of distinctive morphs is fairly common in herpetoculture. It seldom has negative consequences, and it is usually the fastest way to produce offspring that display or at least carry the genes for an interesting trait. However, it is never recommended that a morph be inbred for more than the minimum number of generations necessary to get enough specimens to start outbreeding the line.
The fear of harmful results from inbreeding animals is generally exaggerated, coming more from a few misunderstood problems in human genetics. Many reptile populations are tightly inbred already.

The major threat of inbreeding is that genes for defects (such as kinked tails) may be carried as recessives by the breeding animals but not displayed. If parents and offspring are persistently inbred, there is a strong tendency for such deleterious recessive genes to become concentrated. Statistically there is a greater chance of a matching gene, which means that the “bad” trait appears in more and more of the offspring.

Article from The reptile channel

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

All living things are affected by inbreeding to include reptiles. Genetics are the same no matter what. People are going to believe what they want to and do what they want to. So if you want to believe that reptiles are different then by all means go ahead and treat them like they are different. Just don't cry when you are producing freezer animals!

It’s too easy to research a topic with today’s technology. If you do a quick search you can read many articles discussing the facts of inbreeding.

Even the big breeders will tell you that it is better to out cross than to inbreed. They have bred enough to see what the results are.

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really? can you post links or references to any of this information? I have done my research and found almost just the opposite. Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

and as for your big breeders... http://snakebytes.tv/index.php?optio...=151&Itemid=14

will also add my rats are quite a few generations in of being inbreed and have yet to see any negative effects. still producing big healthy litters

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Originally Posted by eracer

They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

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Actually, they have 'Z' and 'W' chromosomes. Their genetic difference from mammals, especially as related to reproduction, is pretty significant.

On the subject of inbreeding being detrimental, consider the multiple lines of inbreeding that go on in INSECT COLONIES for one. Ten, twenty generations of cockroach or cricket or mealworm feeders?

Or how about rat feeders? I guarantee you that each pair isn't always of a further relation than second cousin.

In fact, incest in humans is generally looked down on more for moral/societal reasons rather than factual biologically detrimental reasons.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

really? can you post links or references to any of this information? I have done my research and found almost just the opposite. Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

and as for your big breeders... http://snakebytes.tv/index.php?optio...=151&Itemid=14

will also add my rats are quite a few generations in of being inbreed and have yet to see any negative effects. still producing big healthy litters

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um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

Better bring something besides Caramels to the table. It's part of the gene not from inbreeding. This has been known for several years now. Even if outcrossed and unrelated, they can still produce kinked babies. Kinking is common in all lines of Caramels, but more likely in some than in others. I've even seen unrelated hets produce kinked babies. Again, this is not from inbreeding.

As for the Albino Granites, who knows. Could be due to the granite gene. I'm sure that project is still in it's infancy. Look at all the albinos that are still being inbred with no ill effects. I wouldn't be certain this is from inbreeding. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

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Originally Posted by eracer

Why can't snakes be affected by the same genetic difficulties as other creatures when siblings interbreed? They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

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actually they dont, they have z and w

inbreeding affects different animals different ways. rodents arent even considered inbred til something like the 135 generation of sib x sib breeding.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

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i would like you to go on and on, rdrs clutch was bred back to a parent, which you said yourself isn't quite so bad. how far was his animals inbreed? has he bred the animals to other snakes to see if mayb he has a snake with some bad genes? there other possiblities, and missing information. Even if it is cause directly to inbreeding congrads you have 1 example, then You bring up carmels...lol, im not going to touch that one.

you can do what ever you want, but what im after is true information, I think anyone going to out cross when they can, but to say people are turning a deaf ear? sounds like thats what your doing. one bad pairing of snakes doesn't explain the 23908439284 healthy clutches people have produced from sib x sib.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

what im after is true information.

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What you are after is miss-information it would seem. You obviously want every one to tell you that it's ok. To each there own.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

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I don't understand? Are you just wanting to argue? You even said it your self? Who said any thing about less than a couple of generations?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

one bad pairing of snakes doesn't explain the 23908439284 healthy clutches people have produced from sib x sib.

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ok so what about all of the bad clutches and train wrecks that come from those breedings? They do happen. Most of the time no one says anything about them. Oh wait, I guess it was incubation temps right?..... yea about that. Most if not all of the big named breeders have done it enough and most will tell you that it is way better to out cross. Why is that?
Anyways, like I have said. People are going to do what they want to do and most do turn a deaf ear so to say. Denying the fact that bad things happen due to inbreeding is ridiculous. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What you are after is miss-information it would seem. You obviously want every one to tell you that it's ok. To each there own.


I don't understand? Are you just wanting to argue? You even said it your self? Who said any thing about less than a couple of generations?





ok so what about all of the bad clutches and train wrecks that come from those breedings? They do happen. Most of the time no one says anything about them. Oh wait, I guess it was incubation temps right?..... yea about that. Most if not all of the big named breeders have done it enough and most will tell you that it is way better to out cross. Why is that?
Anyways, like I have said. People are going to do what they want to do and most do turn a deaf ear so to say. Denying the fact that bad things happen due to inbreeding is ridiculous. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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If your so against it they why do you even own snakes. All the snakes in this industry are closely related to one another more than you think. You want clean blood and out-breeding IMPORT your own, dont go buying a new snake from someone else in the US thinking your getting clean blood. As that wont do anything considering their related to a degree.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

If your so against it they why do you even own snakes. All the snakes in this industry are closely related to one another more than you think. You want clean blood and out-breeding IMPORT your own, dont go buying a new snake from someone else in the US thinking your getting clean blood. As that wont do anything considering their related to a degree.

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Realy?

Realy?

I own them because I like them, as I am sure we all do. They aren't that related. That’s an insane comment. There is lots of new blood lines coming into the US every year. Hmm I guess everything is related to a degree unfortunately.



Some one asks for an opinion, and some are givin and people have to get all upset. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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MOST of what you mention is due to the gene. As I said before, even with outcrossed animals and new import blood, these things still pop up. Outcrossing spiders, cinnies, black pastels and caramels does not make the abnormalities disappear. It's part of the gene. If you aren't prepaired for the consequences don't work with the genes.

I bred son to mother Pewters in 2009/10 and had a perfectly normal clutch other than producing two very oddly patterned Super Pewters.

I'll reiterate....snakes are non-migratory animals. We have these morphs because of inbreeding in wild populations. It happens because micro-populations exist withing other micro-populations and these snakes live with inbreeding their entire lives. Breeding sibling to sibling, father to daughter, father to grand daughter and so on. Do some research on feild observations by Frank Retes. You may be enlightened.

By the way, I am in no way trying to come off as harsh. Just stating valid points.

Not that I want to get into a serious debate with anyone over breeding sibs, or daughter to father, or son to mother.....I dont personally think that WITH REASON inbreeding is bad, a few generations......there would be verry few or no doubel recessives without imbreeding....now that being said I beleive that this imbreeding has to have limits, I am not going to get into what those limits should be.... With me personally I beleive 3 generations.....but thats me

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

MOST of what you mention is due to the gene. As I said before, even with outcrossed animals and new import blood, these things still pop up. Outcrossing spiders, cinnies, black pastels and caramels does not make the abnormalities disappear. It's part of the gene. If you aren't prepaired for the consequences don't work with the genes.

I bred son to mother Pewters in 2009/10 and had a perfectly normal clutch other than producing two very oddly patterned Super Pewters.

I'll reiterate....snakes are non-migratory animals. We have these morphs because of inbreeding in wild populations. It happens because micro-populations exist withing other micro-populations and these snakes live with inbreeding their entire lives. Breeding sibling to sibling, father to daughter, father to grand daughter and so on. Do some research on feild observations by Frank Retes. You may be enlightened.

By the way, I am in no way trying to come off as harsh. Just stating valid points.

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Stating valid points is good. I understand that some inbreeding can be done with little to no bad affects. It is also absolutely needed to prove out a trait, but IMO it should not be used as a short cut, commonly practiced or suggested to be done as an accepted breeding habit.

In the wild animals tend to avoid inbreeding through dispersal and inbuilt behavioral mechanisms. Yes I am sure some inbreeding does happen in the wild. Mother nature has a way of killing off most offspring to help eliminate inbreeding. Lots of things happen in the wild. Animals do wander, get killed, get relocated and such.



As far as Mr. Retes he seems to feel the same way. Assuming this is the same Mr. Frank Retes;

Leezardlady - Hi Frank, how much do you use inbreeding? Do you consciously make an effort to limit inbreeding in your colonies? Have you seen any detrimental effects by inbreeding generation after generation?

Frank Retes - Its hard to say, we have many, many projects, some we have no choice but to inbreed. We have never seen any bad effects on inbreeding, but we have not been around for 50 years either. We do feel monitors inbreed normally in nature, but nature has a way of introducing new blood.

This was taken from a Frank Retes Chat Transcript 12/14/99. He is also a Monitor breeder fyi.

Here is another chat from KS from Kelli Hammack talking about Geckos, albeit not pythons but still a reptile that does tend to have some of the same deformities when inbreed too much.



WaxWormFan: What are your feelings on the inbreeding that frequently occurs with this species by private breeders?

KelliH: excellent question!

KelliH: i have been breeding leopard geckos for several years now, and i always believed that inbreeding was perfectly fine (per Tremper and the Leopard Gecko Manual)

KelliH: however as time went on i began to notice some problems with hatchlings ie. weak hatchlings, eye deformities, etc.

KelliH: i feel that inbreeding is ok for 2 or 3 years max, then one shoudl bring in new blood to strengthen their colonies.

KelliH: now i try to bring in a couple of unrelated males every year or two, and i have found that my hatchlings are stronger and seem to grow quicker also

KelliH: outcrossing is always a good idea when breeding reptiles in general.





Jeremy Stone has also given a presentation at Daytona where he stressed the importance of outcrossing. He noted that the homozygous versions of many mutations tend to be weakened and how important it is to make sure the bloodlines are as strong as possible from the get go.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

MOST of what you mention is due to the gene. As I said before, even with outcrossed animals and new import blood, these things still pop up. Outcrossing spiders, cinnies, black pastels and caramels does not make the abnormalities disappear. It's part of the gene. If you aren't prepaired for the consequences don't work with the genes.

I bred son to mother Pewters in 2009/10 and had a perfectly normal clutch other than producing two very oddly patterned Super Pewters.

I'll reiterate....snakes are non-migratory animals. We have these morphs because of inbreeding in wild populations. It happens because micro-populations exist withing other micro-populations and these snakes live with inbreeding their entire lives. Breeding sibling to sibling, father to daughter, father to grand daughter and so on. Do some research on feild observations by Frank Retes. You may be enlightened.

By the way, I am in no way trying to come off as harsh. Just stating valid points.

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This is exactly my understanding after a lot of research. Some populations of animals aren't harmed in any way by in-breeding, and the various python species became the individual species by breeding with their local population rather than a more diverse group. This is how speciation works. If animals didn't split into sub-populations and in-breed, we'd only have one species on the planet, and it wouldn't be us. In-breeding was a huge factor in all the diversity we see in nature.

Humans can successfully breed with close relatives too. The problem comes in when you start doubling up bad recessive genes. Deformities wouldn't happen very often if we in-bred ourselves, but when they do it's so horrifying that we rightly consider close relative breeding a huge taboo.

An example in snakes would be breeding Spider x Spider or Woma x Woma. Get two copies of the mutated gene, and you're screwed. As long as you have no destructive recessive mutations present, you're fine.

You can't really compare mammal genetics to reptile genetics. Humans have so many genetic problems as it is. We are a species that spans the globe. We number in the billions. Ball pythons, however, exist naturally only in one area of the world. They have no choice but to inbreed from time to time. That is how we end up with such fantastic mutations.

I think it is up to the individual breeder to decide what is right for his or her animals. If a breeder can successfully inbreed their snakes I say go for it. As long as no animal is suffering I see no problem with it. If it gets to a point that the breeder begins to notice deformities or health problems with their animals, only a moron would continue the practice with those individual animals. Now, I also believe the breeder that does inbreed their animals should give that information to any potential buyers, so that people like yourself TessadasExotics, would know if you are purchasing an animal that is directly inbred or not.

I plan on inbreeding my snakes. If I see any problems down the road that I suspect are due to inbreeding, I'll stop, but until that time I will make decisions for my animals as I see fit. I will not hide this fact from any potential buyers and make the information available. "I want to buy this spider male." "Ok, here are his papers showing his mother and father, who were mother and son." Simple.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

You can't really compare mammal genetics to reptile genetics. Humans have so many genetic problems as it is. We are a species that spans the globe. We number in the billions. Ball pythons, however, exist naturally only in one area of the world. They have no choice but to inbreed from time to time. That is how we end up with such fantastic mutations.

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Just to clarify: Inbreeding doesn't cause mutations. It just preserves them in a genetic line, and exposes recessive characteristics. The initial mutation can be caused by a lot of things.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I think it is up to the individual breeder to decide what is right for his or her animals. If a breeder can successfully inbreed their snakes I say go for it. As long as no animal is suffering I see no problem with it. If it gets to a point that the breeder begins to notice deformities or health problems with their animals, only a moron would continue the practice with those individual animals. Now, I also believe the breeder that does inbreed their animals should give that information to any potential buyers, so that people like yourself TessadasExotics, would know if you are purchasing an animal that is directly inbred or not.

I plan on inbreeding my snakes. If I see any problems down the road that I suspect are due to inbreeding, I'll stop, but until that time I will make decisions for my animals as I see fit. I will not hide this fact from any potential buyers and make the information available. "I want to buy this spider male." "Ok, here are his papers showing his mother and father, who were mother and son." Simple.

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I agree, and keep records on my website so when looking at a snake you can click to see the sire or dam, then their sire or dam and so on as long as the breeding occurred in my collection. Right now this is just a couple of layers deep, but expands in depth every year and includes feeding, weight, and breeding histories for all the animals. I'm trying to be a completely transparent breeding operation, so anyone can find out anything about any of my snakes, but I'm not 100% there yet.

When I have a day-job, I'm a software designer, so the gene tracking system was part of the fun of this hobby for me.

Thanks for clarifying. I want to have mine set up that way as well. I'm not quite there yet with keeping track of every feeding (I'm really bad about waiting till the last minute right before bed, feeding everyone, then going to bed. Then a week later I'm like, "crap, which day were they fed again?" haha. I'm getting better, I promise.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Thanks for clarifying. I want to have mine set up that way as well. I'm not quite there yet with keeping track of every feeding (I'm really bad about waiting till the last minute right before bed, feeding everyone, then going to bed. Then a week later I'm like, "crap, which day were they fed again?" haha. I'm getting better, I promise.

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For me it's all about bar-codes and a keypad for entering food types, defs, and sheds. I scan a rack when I feed them, and scan each individual snake that refuses, and my website is instantly updated with the new info. Yeah, I'm a complete nerd.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What you are after is miss-information it would seem. You obviously want every one to tell you that it's ok. To each there own.

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no, I want true information, like I said? you saying "Genetics are the same no matter what." is not true information by any means. Alot of what you say seems to be debatable or opinion.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I don't understand? Are you just wanting to argue? You even said it your self? Who said any thing about less than a couple of generations?

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sib x sib means 1 generation, so i believe it was the OP said something about less than a couple generations.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

ok so what about all of the bad clutches and train wrecks that come from those breedings? They do happen. Most of the time no one says anything about them. Oh wait, I guess it was incubation temps right?..... yea about that. Most if not all of the big named breeders have done it enough and most will tell you that it is way better to out cross. Why is that?

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im wondering if I should send you the bhb video again? im not arguing line breeding will most likly end up in undesirable effects, but this whole thread is simply about sib x sib.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Anyways, like I have said. People are going to do what they want to do and most do turn a deaf ear so to say. Denying the fact that bad things happen due to inbreeding is ridiculous. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

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ive already touched on this

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

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yes all wobbles, im assuming you mean the spider wobble, the most outcrossed morph you can get? you bring up carmels again...lol. duck billing I don't know much about so I won't comment. The rest, sure again after a few generations of line breeding, but also seen some of the above from from pretty unrelated pairs (different morphs from different breeders) it does happen.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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proof?

So it is just an argument. ok. I'm not going to beat a dead horse with a bush.

I have bred two totally unrelated animals and got a train wreck of a clutch. Out of 6 eggs, only 2 reached full term. One died in the egg the day before the other hatched. The one that died was missing one eye and had severe spinal deformations. The one that "lived" also had kinks and did not survive after not being able to eat.

Deformities can happen for all sorts of reasons and no amount of outcrossing will minimize or get rid of the spider wobble. It is linked to the gene. (or so many speculate). All spiders wobble. They are one of the most outcrossed mutations due to the fact they have no super form.

Now you may get to the point if you are line breeding that after many many generations you start to see problems, but within only a few, I doubt you'll see many issues, and most of the time, breeders are not going to continually line breed unless they have a new mutation they are trying to develop, and even then they only do it for a few generations.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

So it is just an argument. ok. I'm not going to beat a dead horse with a bush.

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wow... you make these claims, I ask for proof or elaboration. Instead of saying we are all turning a deaf ear and doing what we want, why don't you enlighten us?