Pied Theory

I was thinking today about the levels of white that vary among pieds. It is clearly not genetic at least not totally considering the fact that a high white pied can produce low white babies. So this got me thinking and made me think about some of my many genetics and bio classes when I was in college. I remembered how some animals colors can be determined by temperature such as Siamese Cats. Also I remembered that alligators and crocodiles gender is determined by temperature while in the egg. My thought is what if variations in egg temperatures cause different levels of white in pieds. It does not seem logical for it to be completely random so if its not genetic then the only thing I can think it to be would be environment. Has anyone had multiple clutches of pied and incubated them at various temperatures to see? Has anyone noted levels of white in pieds in relation to location within the incubator?

I'm pretty sure there is a complex molecular mechanism that determines the amount of pattern deletion in each individual piebald animal. Temperature is known to cause pattern abnormalities in ball pythons, but that is usually caused by unstable temperatures, and not just incubating at the low or high end of the incubation range. Also, I've seen high and low white pieds hatch out from the same clutches and the eggs would have been incubating at the same temperature, or at least within tenths of degrees of each other. I believe there may be some studies of the piebald mutation in other species that might shed some more light on this subject.

sounds good, but has a major catch- how do u explain that u got different amounts of white in the same clutch?


i really like ur thoughts and it would make a bit sense, considering that temps and change patterns (too low or to high temps often cause striping and stuff), but the reason above dont let me think its true.

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Originally Posted by joe23

sounds good, but has a major catch- how do u explain that u got different amounts of white in the same clutch?


i really like ur thoughts and it would make a bit sense, considering that temps and change patterns (too low or to high temps often cause striping and stuff), but the reason above dont let me think its true.

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Umm cause like we have said before, IT'S RANDOM. The amount of white varies so much between pieds and most people who claim their hets only produce high white pieds usually are lying or just trying to get more money out of them.

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Originally Posted by steveboos

Umm cause like we have said before, IT'S RANDOM. The amount of white varies so much between pieds and most people who claim their hets only produce high white pieds usually are lying or just trying to get more money out of them.

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Oh, it's certainly RANDOM, but that doesn't mean those people are lying--I've spent FAR TOO MUCH of the last year looking at clutches of other people's pieds on KS and fauna and breeder's websites, and I can tell you for a fact that some pieds do hatch clutches with similar "looks". So it's not genetic in the simple recessive/dominant sense that we're used to with ball pythons, but that doesn't mean you can't create a tendency by line breeding--ie. only breeding the high white pieds from high white parents, and then repeating on the next generation. After a handful of generations, I bet you can reproduce some pretty similar-looking clutches.

Just look at the crazy stuff you can do with line-breeding dogs. Chihuahuas and Great Danes aren't dominant or recessive, but apparently it's (relatively) easy to make those traits breed true.

So low whites -can- throw high whites and vice versa, but I bet it's quite easy to make your low whites MOSTLY throw low white, or your high whites MOSTLY throw high white.

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Originally Posted by Robbiebisme

I was thinking today about the levels of white that vary among pieds. It is clearly not genetic at least not totally considering the fact that a high white pied can produce low white babies. So this got me thinking and made me think about some of my many genetics and bio classes when I was in college. I remembered how some animals colors can be determined by temperature such as Siamese Cats. Also I remembered that alligators and crocodiles gender is determined by temperature while in the egg. My thought is what if variations in egg temperatures cause different levels of white in pieds. It does not seem logical for it to be completely random so if its not genetic then the only thing I can think it to be would be environment. Has anyone had multiple clutches of pied and incubated them at various temperatures to see? Has anyone noted levels of white in pieds in relation to location within the incubator?

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I think the statistics on "location within the incubator" would be too small to be useful. You'll need at least 20 piebald eggs to really convince me.

...but if you happen to have a bunch of pieds sitting around, I think incubating them a few degrees higher or lower for a few years might be an interesting experiment... just don't do anything that risks their health, 'kay?

I do not have that many pied eggs laying around. If only I did, but I was just wondering about a potential external factor that is playing a role, temperature, humidity, air pressure, or an internal factor how the snake rests in the egg. I'm not saying I have the answer to this mystery I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that it is random. Nature doesn’t do random. It may seem that it does but most random things are genetic mutations and considering we are already dealing with a genetic mutation It just seems there is something else making an impact here.

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Originally Posted by Robbiebisme

Nature doesn’t do random. It may seem that it does but most random things are genetic mutations and considering we are already dealing with a genetic mutation It just seems there is something else making an impact here.

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This is an oxymoron. Having bred Pieds for several years, I can say it is random. In 09 I produced 14 pieds. I had everything from no-white to 90%+ white.....

Talking to Alan Bosch a few years ago, he claims to produce a lot of high white pieds through line breeding but he's the only one I know of that claims that.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

This is an oxymoron. Having bred Pieds for several years, I can say it is random. In 09 I produced 14 pieds. I had everything from no-white to 90%+ white.....

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Agreed partially: Nature absolutely does do random - just usually not on purpose. Why do you think eukaryotes go to such lengths to protect the genes from mutation. Mutations are random for the most part, and are typically not something that is desired (at least from a molecular/cellular biology standpoint).

However, I don't think it can be said 100% for certain that the amount of white on a piebald is random. From a breeder's standpoint you can say it's random and that's enough, but having a basic understanding of molecular and cellular biology, I can tell you there is/are most likely some determinate factor(s) that is/are likely somewhat complex. What I believe is that there is a series of molecular events that occur in the development of the embryo which determine the extent to which the partial leucism of a piebald animal is expressed. I will see if I have time to look into this sometime this week to see if any studies have been done on the actual mechanism of the expression of piebaldism in any other species.

I think it has everything to do with the pattern of the snake combined with the pied gene.
Spieds have coloured heads and not much else, from what I've seen of Piebald Lessers, they have very little pattern if any.
Maybe it's the variance in the "Normal" pattern that determines the amount of white. Much like the contrast in albinos.
The theory backs up the claim that certain "lines" produce a higher percentage of High White Pieds.

-Steven

Russ, I have no doubt you may be right. But isn't the sequence of events that determine how the cells react based on the individual embryo? To me that would be random. It may be a good thesis study for someone. Science is not perfect and we are always finding new answers for questions we have already answered. It's based mostly on ideas and loosly on facts. My college biology prof told us that. lol.

Maybe if I think about it next season, I'll start keeping tabs on which girls and guys throw low, med, and hi-white kids. I have to say though I'll stick to my opinion as of now and stand behind the idea of it being random.

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Originally Posted by Russ Lawson

Agreed partially: Nature absolutely does do random - just usually not on purpose. Why do you think eukaryotes go to such lengths to protect the genes from mutation. Mutations are random for the most part, and are typically not something that is desired (at least from a molecular/cellular biology standpoint).

However, I don't think it can be said 100% for certain that the amount of white on a piebald is random. From a breeder's standpoint you can say it's random and that's enough, but having a basic understanding of molecular and cellular biology, I can tell you there is/are most likely some determinate factor(s) that is/are likely somewhat complex. What I believe is that there is a series of molecular events that occur in the development of the embryo which determine the extent to which the partial leucism of a piebald animal is expressed. I will see if I have time to look into this sometime this week to see if any studies have been done on the actual mechanism of the expression of piebaldism in any other species.

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Originally Posted by stevenkeogh

I think it has everything to do with the pattern of the snake combined with the pied gene.
Spieds have coloured heads and not much else, from what I've seen of Piebald Lessers, they have very little pattern if any.
Maybe it's the variance in the "Normal" pattern that determines the amount of white. Much like the contrast in albinos.
The theory backs up the claim that certain "lines" produce a higher percentage of High White Pieds.

-Steven

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Steven, which lines claim to produce high whites? I'm not sure what you mean by the "normal" pattern of the snake causing the amount of white. That to me is the random part. When you mix things such as pinstripe, spider, even cinnamon, in the mix the pattern is then disrupted. We have seen all of these combos produce mostly all white pieds with only colored heads. I produced 3 Pewter Pieds this season and all of them were white except for the heads. I believe this was caused by the cinny gene of the Pewter. All of the Pastel Pieds I've seen, and I have produced them, have had normal amount of random white and pastel pattern.

I think what I'm trying to say here is, if you look at the super form of some of the co-doms, or the doms with distinctly different patters, we are getting pieds with white bodies and the usual colored head. Those that do not affect pattern and are only color based are producing the normal looking pieds with different colors.

Color based morphs combined with pied where pattern is not affected. All of these morphs on their own continue to produce normal patterns even the super pastel.
Albino
Axanthic
Pastel
Ghost

Pattern based morphs combined with pied where patter is affected. All of these morphs produce a disturbance in patter, especially the super forms of cinny, mojave and lesser.
Pinstripe
Spider
Cinny
Clown
Mojave
Lesser

I'm not saying I know the cause of why the combos are high or low white ,but I have noticed a trend. At least we all have something to discuss. Any other ideas? Very cool topic!:)

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Originally Posted by steveboos

IT'S RANDOM.

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I don't 100% buy into the idea that our DNA has a random number generator encoded in it.. but I do think it's complex enough that we won't figure out the 'how' behind white % in pieds.

Ohhhkay.

Because I was curious, I had to look up what causes the piebald spotting in piebald mice. Apparently, it has been known for a long time to be due to a deficiency in neural crest cell derived melanocytes. (The "neural crest" is a group of cells that migrate along the embryo and produce lots of different cell types in the body.)

Recently, it was discovered that the exact cause of the deficiency is a mutation in a signal molecule that "turns on" the melanocytes. Without that signal molecule, most of the melanocytes don't turn on and therefore the animal has white patches in those areas. According to these researchers, the amount of white is directly correlated to the level of expression of the signal molecule. Animals with almost no signal molecule are all white (and also have other diseases), while animals with 25% normal functioning signal molecule are about 20% white.

However, in the mouse model, the amount of signal molecule was determined by different alleles -- in mice, there are apparently multiple different piebald alleles on the same locus. I don't think that can possibly be the case with piebald ball pythons since if it were, the amount of white would presumably have a very clear inherited component. Also, even normal piebalds have a pattern that is really distinct from normal ball pythons, which is kind of interesting and suggests to me that there may be more to it than "just" an ablation or lack of activation of melanocytes ...

Here's an article, for those interested (I'm not enough of a molecular geneticist to want to go all that crazy with most of it, but the abstract and discussion have some interesting points about the mechanism):

http://www.jbc.org/content/281/16/10799.full.pdf

This isn't the article in which they describe the original finding, but it's interesting nonetheless and I can't post that article in its entirety without violating copyright :colbert:

As far as the heritability factor, I thought I had heard tell of a few folks working with lines of extreme low-white pieds. Is this not the case after all?

When I refer to "Lines" of high white pieds I am only referring to the breeding stock.
The quotations are meant to imply that I do not consider them specific lines of Piebald.
I have not seen a lesser pied with colour. I am assuming other morphs with high varying amounts of white are similar in the respect that when combined with the piebald gene, the specimens end up being very high white.
So why can it not work the same way with the natural overall inherited pattern of the snake?
If a high white pied has another factor going on in it's pattern which determines the white, then you would be able to notice which het babies were more likely to pass on the high white trait.

Do you get what I am saying?

-Steven