What specifically is it that causes the wobble that spiders carry?

I'm doing a science fair project and trying to find out if there is a possible link between the gene that causes the neurological disorder of spider balls and people who are predisposed to shake/wobble (i.e. parkinson's, etc.)

Does anyone know the exact gene or gene combination that makes spiders do this? Or where else could I look that would be a good source?

In short... Nope

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

In short... Nope

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Agh, thanks. Leave it to me to find the one subject that has no answer :/

Yeah ... What he said.

Some rule outs might be: cerebellar hypoplasia, peripheral neuropathy, vestibular disorder, demyelination/myelination deficit, neurotransmitter derangement, just 'cos they feel like it, etc., etc.. (I'm tired and some of those might be way off, so feel free to rip those apart as you see fit ...)

Could still be a wicked cool science fair project tho.

no one gives a crap about snakes enough to find out, sorry

There's a theory in leopard geckos (the enigma morphs of the leo world exhibit a lot of the same symptoms that spiders do) that maybe the animals in question suffer from a Thiamine deficiency...thiamine is responsible for cellular repair and development, especially the parts of the brain where motor function is controlled. Never been proven, but it makes sense if you think about it....

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Originally Posted by JordanAng420

There's a theory in leopard geckos (the enigma morphs of the leo world exhibit a lot of the same symptoms that spiders do) that maybe the animals in question suffer from a Thiamine deficiency...thiamine is responsible for cellular repair and development, especially the parts of the brain where motor function is controlled. Never been proven, but it makes sense if you think about it....

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That's a neat theory! Polioencephalomalacia (thiamine deficiency) is always supposed to be on your differential list for small ruminant neuro signs ... :rofl: (Laughing 'cos I just took an exam on that this morning, ha!) I would think it would be possible that these guys could have a congenital defect in thiamine absorption.

The only problem I have with that is that I was under the impression that the signs were more constant in thiamine deficiency. One of the things that seems so baffling to me about the spider neuro signs is that they are so sporadic in some animals. They'll go for weeks on end acting totally normal, then one day do a little spider dance, then go back to being normal. Or some will just hold their heads funny, or some have an intention tremor ("wobble") ...

I told a veterinary neurologist about this topic and he suggested that the sporadic nature of it, and the fact that it seems to happen particularly when the animals are stimulated, makes it sound similar to narcolepsy in Doberman Pinschers. In dogs, narcolepsy is thought to be caused by a deficiency of neurons that produce a protein called hypocretin, and if you Google hypocretin there's an article about how Parkinson's patients have a similar deficiency ..! So, maybe Lexielightning is on the right track ..?

Of course, we can always just do what you always do in medicine when you don't know the cause of disease: blame it on autoimmune dysfunction! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

That's a neat theory! Polioencephalomalacia (thiamine deficiency) is always supposed to be on your differential list for small ruminant neuro signs ... :rofl: (Laughing 'cos I just took an exam on that this morning, ha!) I would think it would be possible that these guys could have a congenital defect in thiamine absorption.

The only problem I have with that is that I was under the impression that the signs were more constant in thiamine deficiency. One of the things that seems so baffling to me about the spider neuro signs is that they are so sporadic in some animals. They'll go for weeks on end acting totally normal, then one day do a little spider dance, then go back to being normal. Or some will just hold their heads funny, or some have an intention tremor ("wobble") ...

I told a veterinary neurologist about this topic and he suggested that the sporadic nature of it, and the fact that it seems to happen particularly when the animals are stimulated, makes it sound similar to narcolepsy in Doberman Pinschers. In dogs, narcolepsy is thought to be caused by a deficiency of neurons that produce a protein called hypocretin, and if you Google hypocretin there's an article about how Parkinson's patients have a similar deficiency ..! So, maybe Lexielightning is on the right track ..?

Of course, we can always just do what you always do in medicine when you don't know the cause of disease: blame it on autoimmune dysfunction! :rofl:

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ROFLMAO! THAT...is an awesome post. Great information!

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Of course, we can always just do what you always do in medicine when you don't know the cause of disease: blame it on autoimmune dysfunction! :rofl:

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Except they hatch like this and autoimmune stuff usually occurs later in life than that.

But yeah, you're right.

I really want to know what the basis of wobble in spider BPs and also stargazing in corn snakes. That one is known to be mendelian recessive. It cropped up originally in starkissed corns. But knowing what the gene is might be really, really cool.

Oh, I cropped it out, but you're right, my spider sometimes does look like she has intention tremor!

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Originally Posted by wstphal

Except they hatch like this and autoimmune stuff usually occurs later in life than that.

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Not always. I've known people who hatched out spiders that didn't have a wobble for quite some time, and then it just popped up out of nowhere... But yeah, a lot of them do hatch like that, so it's probably not autoimmune.

Nah, I was mostly joking about the autoimmune thing -- the current theory on narcolepsy/Parkinson's hypocretin deficiency is autoimmune, which is why I said it. (I think in some cases it's a bit of a "cop-out" explanation, so it was meant in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way ... Like, "Okay, great, the body is attacking itself -- but WHY?!")

It would be interesting, though, to compile information from various spider owners about the progression of their pets' signs. I've heard of a lot of animals that have developed the "wobble" later in life; I have one girl who had never done anything "loopy," then just the other day I saw her spinning a bit in her cage. I remember awhile ago there was a proven spider female for sale for a very low price because she had never done anything neuro in her life, then laid her clutch and started wobbling.

At the same time, you hear of plenty of little wobblers and spinners right out of the egg ... Has anyone ever had a spider that improved with age?

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Nah, I was mostly joking about the autoimmune thing -- the current theory on narcolepsy/Parkinson's hypocretin deficiency is autoimmune, which is why I said it. (I think in some cases it's a bit of a "cop-out" explanation, so it was meant in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way ... Like, "Okay, great, the body is attacking itself -- but WHY?!")

It would be interesting, though, to compile information from various spider owners about the progression of their pets' signs. I've heard of a lot of animals that have developed the "wobble" later in life; I have one girl who had never done anything "loopy," then just the other day I saw her spinning a bit in her cage. I remember awhile ago there was a proven spider female for sale for a very low price because she had never done anything neuro in her life, then laid her clutch and started wobbling.

At the same time, you hear of plenty of little wobblers and spinners right out of the egg ... Has anyone ever had a spider that improved with age?

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My bumblebee improved with age. He had a very slight wobble when I got him, but after a few months, it was pretty much gone. Now he'll only occasionally wobble just for a second if he's startled, or sometimes while feeding. This is a rare occurrence anymore though. I've heard of both sides though - some animals wobbles worsening, then others improving - as they age.

From my experience all spiders have a little wobble some very slight but there it may become more pronounced over time or less pronounced but it seems to always be there. The odd thing is a spider normal cross the spider offspring all have a wobble but the normals do not all all. It seems to be a genetic transmitted that is linked to the spider colouration. It could be a deficiency as suggested but then I'd expect to see most hatchlings with little to no visible wobble and most adults with a pronounced one but that does not seem to be the case. Interesting and kinda sad, my spider have no visible wobble unless in feeding mode or stressed a bit he lets me know when he has had enough handling...

My spider female barely wobbles any more. She used to wobble every feeding and sometimes during handling and I havn't seen it in some time. She still lightly corkscrews in the cage, but not like she used to (I've only seen major corkscrewing when put in a new cage, like when I upgraded the size of her tub).

I'm glad the spider wobble, unlike enigma wobble/spinning, doesn't affect quality of life. (at least imo)

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Originally Posted by lexxielightning

Not always. I've known people who hatched out spiders that didn't have a wobble for quite some time, and then it just popped up out of nowhere... But yeah, a lot of them do hatch like that, so it's probably not autoimmune.

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I guess I got wrong info then. I was told they had it from hatch but that it was more or less noticeable. Thanks!

And I do agree that when we can't figure something out in healthcare, we do tend to say, "oh, it's autoimmune." It serves several purposes. One is the patient or owner wants a reason, and the other is it gives us an excuse to give steroids, and corticosteroids usually seem to make vertebrates feel better even though they are often detrimental.