Lets talk HYBRIDS (friendly debate only please)

Okay guys. Well I was thinking about hybrids and decided to do some research

I found out, I really like hybrids! And im not as opposed to them as I use to be. I found some that were so amazingly gorgeous that I just couldnt say no to them

but I want to know, what do you guys think?

Im not talking about hybrids that look similar to thier pure parents, Im talking hubrids that are so obvious, that they could never be sold as a "pure"

im talking something like a carpondro or a Superboa, BoaConda, super ball

In fact, heres a list of some amazing hybrids:

Python hybrids:

Diamond x Jungle Carpet = DxJ

Diamond x Coastal Carpet = DxC

Diamond X Bredls

Diamond X (Bredls X Coastal) [Jaguar]

Diamond x Inland (metcalfei)

Bredls x Inland (metcalfei)

Bredls x Jungle Carpet

Bredls X Coastal [Jaguar]

Bredls X (Bredls X Coastal) [Jaguar]

West Papuan X (Bredls X Coastal ) [Jaguar]

Coastal x Inland (metcalfei)

Jungle x Water Python (Liasis fuscus)

Jungle x Coastal Carpet = JxC

Coastal X Blackhead (A.melanocephalus) in Europe 2009

Coastal x Macklots

Jungle X (Coastal X Macklots) = Junglot

Jungle x Tanimbar(nauta)

Burm x African Rock

Burm X Ball

Burm x Retic = Bateater

Burm x (Retic x Burm)

Burm x Tiger Retic

Retic x (Retic X Burm) = Jungle Retic (Thanks Kara)

Kinghorni x Coastal

Kinghorni x Jungle

Kinghorni x fuscus by Royal Melbourne Zoo 1978

Moluccan x Barneck by Stuart Taylor 2001?

Moluccan x Coastal by Mardi McManus, Canada

Southern x Barneck

Barneck x (Diamond X Coastal) by John Huntress 2008

Carpet (various ssp.) x Green Tree = Carpondro
includes: Coastal X GTP
Diamond X Coastal X GTP
West Papuan X GTPby Chriss Rouille 2005
Jungle X GTP

(IJ Carpet X Sorong GTP) X (Diamond X Coastal) Jaguar Carpet= Jagpondro by Yasser Moustafa, Spitfire Reptiles, in 2008

Borneo STP X Red Blood

Borneo STP x Black Blood

Black Blood x Red Blood

Borneo STP x Ball

(Borneo STP x Ball) X Ball

Angolan X Ball

Woma x WP Carpet = Coma

Macklots x Carpet = Carplot

Macklots X Jungle = Junglot

(Macklots X Jungle) X Jungle

(Macklots X Carpet) X (IJ x Coastal Jaguar Carpet) = Jaglot by NERD

Diamond X (Macklots X Jungle)= Dicarplot by NERD

IJ Carpet (WP) X Ball = Carpall AKA Ballpet,Barpet

Woma X Ball = Wall first accomplished by NERD circa 2007
(List courtesy of http://www.hybridhaven.net/index.php)

I couldnt find a list for boas, but I listed two so thats good enough ;)

I love hybrids, but I dont think I would ever produce one. I would own one though

What do you guys think?


Please keep the conversation clean and friendly please, I dont want this going to the QT forum.

To sum it up, Im just curious what your opinion is on hybrids.


AN AMAZING PICTURE:

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2...escaik07cd.jpg

Yes, that is a boa locking with a green anaconda

I'm not really opposed to hybrids. In fact I have seen some that look simply amazing. As long as it doesn't affect the health of the animal I am fine.

Genetically, I don't like the idea. I doubt there have been studies concerning issues that could surface because of this hybridization. As far as your interests, only you can determine what's best for you.

Socially, I wouldn't want to see a hybrid ball python that would grow to enormous size. It would be too easy for some high flying congress critter to add the ball python to an ever growing list of unacceptable snakes that can't be owned by some citizens.

I also don't believe that we should be conducting these experiments with mother nature. Building visual morphs is one thing, but to create what would amount to another sub-species isn't something I'm interested in.

Just one man's opinion,
Jim Smith

I can see what you're getting at with the messing with mother nature. I don't really know if I like it in that aspect either, but purely academically speaking I think they're very interesting, and I'm not going to lie, I really am liking the "Bateater" (Burm x Retic), but just for the looks. If there was another snake that looked just like that one, I would definitely go for it, but seeing as it's a hybrid I'm not sure if I would want to own one since they're coming so early in the game.

this is going to get back quick.

also, the carpet crosses aren't hybrids. they are intergrades.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Genetically, I don't like the idea. I doubt there have been studies concerning issues that could surface because of this hybridization. As far as your interests, only you can determine what's best for you.

Socially, I wouldn't want to see a hybrid ball python that would grow to enormous size. It would be too easy for some high flying congress critter to add the ball python to an ever growing list of unacceptable snakes that can't be owned by some citizens.

I also don't believe that we should be conducting these experiments with mother nature. Building visual morphs is one thing, but to create what would amount to another sub-species isn't something I'm interested in.

Just one man's opinion,
Jim Smith

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This is a very good point that I never considered. I think the Burmball could be used in the way you are talking about, However I also think that if it was used by politicians or the media to go against ball pythons, a lot of people would correct the "mistake"

Such as brain from BHB, ect ect.

To be honest thoug, I think I am more on your side when it comes to this. Because even if people did correct it (saying that the 8 - 12 foot burmball is not a ball python) they probably wouldnt get any attention

So yeah, im a little against the burmball now, but all the others I am very interested in

(if I didnt make any sense at all its because I just woke up lol)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

this is going to get back quick.

also, the carpet crosses aren't hybrids. they are intergrades.

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No.. its not. Its not hard for people who cant control themselves about this topic to stay out of the thread

I'm fine with hybrids, given the animals are not released into the wild for any reason, the breeding does not result in severe defects that affect the animal's quality of life, etc.

The whole "screwing with mother nature" bit is not exactly a good point against hybridization. We are not creating hybrids and releasing them into the wild to form wild populations and ultimately screw up the ecosystem of that habitat. People that breed for hybrids do it for their own personal captive collections or those of other people. I don't consider the snakes I have here to be "mother nature". These are captive bred and hatched snakes and will never be released into the wild, and neither will their offspring. They are a captive population.

I may or may not get a hybrid or breed hybrids in the future. I haven't done a lot of looking into them and to be honest, I haven't even seen pictures of hybrids. I just have not looked. For now, I'm content to have my balls be balls, and my corns be corns.

I for one love hybrids, I find the look of many very visualy appealing.
One thing alot of those against breeding dont take into account when they talk about playing God or changing mother nature is dogs. Dogs are here purely by human intervention and breeding, has that really had so bad an impact? Yes I do fully agree the records are a MUST, any hybrid breeding should be taken seriously. Family trees should be kept for all young and when offered up for sale they need to very clear on the animals mixed genetics, especialy when the lines become watered enough to potentialy be confused as a pure.

I've got a proven female JCP in cooling right now with hopes of getting some carpballs in the future. I'm also a big fan of the 75% GTP/JCP combos, they are stunning once their colors come in.

As for the political arguement.. IMO, if they really want to take away snakes they will find a reason with or without hybrid breeding. Obviously, facts and science arent a major concern when creating these bills considered the "theories" behind the s373 bill in contention right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sariel

I for one love hybrids, I find the look of many very visualy appealing.
One thing alot of those against breeding dont take into account when they talk about playing God or changing mother nature is dogs. Dogs are here purely by human intervention and breeding, has that really had so bad an impact? Yes I do fully agree the records are a MUST, any hybrid breeding should be taken seriously. Family trees should be kept for all young and when offered up for sale they need to very clear on the animals mixed genetics, especialy when the lines become watered enough to potentialy be confused as a pure.

I've got a proven female JCP in cooling right now with hopes of getting some carpballs in the future. I'm also a big fan of the 75% GTP/JCP combos, they are stunning once their colors come in.

As for the political arguement.. IMO, if they really want to take away snakes they will find a reason with or without hybrid breeding. Obviously, facts and science arent a major concern when creating these bills considered the "theories" behind the s373 bill in contention right now.

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wow, I cant say anything besides:

AGREED. 100%

I have been looking at hybrid pics and I have to agree they are AMAZING. Some of them are just crazzzzzzzzzzzzzy. I wouldnt mind owning a carpondra, or a superboa

or even a boaconda.

I havent found pics of the superboa or the boaconda, however I am a boa lover so I can just imagine how much I will drool when I finally do see a picture of one

(Btw, superboa = Green anaconda x BCI (or BCC))

One other thing.. about the political point.

I gotta switch sides smith, LOL, I gotta say Sariel raises a good point. If they want to ban balls, or any snake for that matter they will try to do it, hybrids or not.

They're the work of the devil and anybody who makes one will surely spend an eternity in hell.

Shall I save you a seat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

They're the work of the devil and anybody who makes one will surely spend an eternity in hell.

Shall I save you a seat?

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This is the type of comment I am not interested

If you cant have a civil conversation about hybrids, then please do not post


While I do understand this is a FORUM and anybody can post in this thread if they want to, I am kindly asking you, or anybody else with this attitude, to please not post in this thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

They're the work of the devil and anybody who makes one will surely spend an eternity in hell.

Shall I save you a seat?

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If thats all it takes to send one to hell, Ive probably already got a reservation ;).
of course according to some, owning snakes period makes you all sorts of mentally deficient and prone to criminal activities.

They leave a real distaste in my mouth !! :O Man is given XXXXXX species/locales and or types and he's got to mess with that ?? Carpets for instance, With what you depicted you can't find a pure captive type animal..There is or was taxinomic differences between the animals..That is being destroyed by lack of integrity of those who can't be satisfied by what is given them..2 cents and pocket lint..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Mead

They leave a real distaste in my mouth !! :O Man is given XXXXXX species/locales and or types and he's got to mess with that ?? Carpets for instance, With what you depicted you can't find a pure captive type animal..There is or was taxinomic differences between the animals..That is being destroyed by lack of integrity of those who can't be satisfied by what is given them..2 cents and pocket lint..

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Man was also given the ability to dream, invent, and create works of art. Animals have been evolving for millions of years. Why is the intervention of humans any different, especially when our meddling is purely for captive populations? Like I said, as long as these hybridized animals are not making their way into the wild, there is no problems. If someone wants to buy a pure bred snake that has no hybridization in its genetics, then they need to go to someone who does not breed for hybrids. And those that do breed for hybrids need to keep strict records of the animals they keep, breed, and produce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Mead

They leave a real distaste in my mouth !! :O Man is given XXXXXX species/locales and or types and he's got to mess with that ?? Carpets for instance, With what you depicted you can't find a pure captive type animal..There is or was taxinomic differences between the animals..That is being destroyed by lack of integrity of those who can't be satisfied by what is given them..2 cents and pocket lint..

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Alot of the issues with carpet purity came from Australia closeing its borders to export before the hobby had a chance to really understand carpet breeding. So people despretly put together what they had till they become more comfertable in their experience. Yes some people dont care and will slap any two animals together because its what they have available, but thats with any animal unfortunatly. Its why we have reputable breeders and, hopefully, traceable lineages.

I like hybrids. I like "pure" animals. I like EVERYTHING.

Mostly, its seeing what can be produced and how far we can push nature. I believe all hybrids should be documented (microchipped, if possible), etc.

I don't really care much for integrates, personally but its mostly because they are so easily confused for various species (especially with carpets and novice keepers) that it really doesn't qualify as a hybrid.

I've been wondering about hybrid geckos for a while. Most of what ive looked at and researched is snakes. Needs moar geckos.

I dont care for hybrids much, but i have always liked the bateaters

LOL, with the majority of thought I wonder how long it will be before we see a real life Pegasus...:rolleyes:
The problem lies with the unknowing and the non caring people, Traceable lines ?
There aren't any that span any distance other than zoos..People lose track and are prone to make stuff up as they go along..Pure lines ? where ? from who ? is the way it will become due to the nature of the beast..My own endeavor is Borneo short tails and its become apparent that they have already been effected by the unknowing and non caring..Its become a designer world and thats what matters to the majority..The purist is a minority that is being aside for the newest color or pattern..More pocket fuzz..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

This is the type of comment I am not interested

If you cant have a civil conversation about hybrids, then please do not post


While I do understand this is a FORUM and anybody can post in this thread if they want to, I am kindly asking you, or anybody else with this attitude, to please not post in this thread

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You obviously did not catch the sarcasm/humor in Wes's post.. haha ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

This is the type of comment I am not interested

If you cant have a civil conversation about hybrids, then please do not post


While I do understand this is a FORUM and anybody can post in this thread if they want to, I am kindly asking you, or anybody else with this attitude, to please not post in this thread

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I think the humor was lost in the comment. The "shall I save you a seat" i felt was meant to imply that the poster was going as well, so agreeing with your liking the hybrids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

I think the humor was lost in the comment. The "shall I save you a seat" i felt was meant to imply that the poster was going as well, so agreeing with your liking the hybrids.

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He give the impression he has already made them, I demand pics!

I shot for carpondros last year with no luck, going to try again this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Mead

LOL, with the majority of thought I wonder how long it will be before we see a real life Pegasus...:rolleyes:
The problem lies with the unknowing and the non caring people, Traceable lines ?
There aren't any that span any distance other than zoos..People lose track and are prone to make stuff up as they go along..Pure lines ? where ? from who ? is the way it will become due to the nature of the beast..My own endeavor is Borneo short tails and its become apparent that they have already been effected by the unknowing and non caring..Its become a designer world and thats what matters to the majority..The purist is a minority that is being aside for the newest color or pattern..More pocket fuzz..

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I cant say I totally agree with this. Reputable breeders that put effort into keeping track of family lines arent likely to just make stuff up or lose track just like that. It defeats the purpose keeping those records. You also cant really blame hybridization on the lack of pures or traceable lines when it comes to carpets, GTPs, Borneos or what have you. Integrades generally happen in the wild as well as through casual or beginner breeding, not always because of the all mighty dollar.

Theres no doubnt that some intergrading will always happen, its happened in Crested geckos and itll happen in many other snakes and reptiles aswell

Thats the problem I have, when you have an animal that LOOKS like a pure "breed" of that species, but really is two different kinds of animals

For example, Carpets. Some can have jungle and coastal but still look like a jungle, ect ect

What I DONT have a problem with, is hybrids that you can spot as a different snake from a mile away. Like for example anybody in their right mind will see a burmball and go "thats not a ball, and thats not a burm"

Or a Carpondro, Its easy to say, well that isnt a carpet, and it isnt a GTP.

I know a lot of people are against hybrids, and I can understand why when the animals looks too much like the pure form and whatnot, but I feel a reputable breeder keeps very good track of their snakes lineage.

I for one love some hybrids, I think they're insane looking, bateaters are one of my favorites, along with the Super Ball, and the Burm Ball, I mean look at this snake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-TXm3SDwsM

Its INSANE looking. And at least in these cases it looks nothing like the pure form of either parent.