ASF with eye infection ??

I've got 2 Adult ASF's that appear to have eye infections. Each has a sunken eye and is quite red and swollen , almost to the point of being closed. Any suggestions on how to help clear this up without seeing a vet? Ultimately, I will go to a vet if needed but I'd prefer to avoid it if there is a simple solution to help correct this.
I will try to get some photos up tommorow

They are prone to this, that's wahy it is suggested that they be fed off after 5-6 months of breeding.

You can try anti-biotics, and warm compresses.

It could be pink-eye. Which can spread to your entire colony. :(
It can also be caused by tooth abscesses. If you notice a lump in their jaw, that is likely the cause. Nothing can really be done about this, other than large amounts of expensive surgery.

If it's pink eye, it can be treated, but you'll want to quarantine the animals. It can spread.

They get these lumps once that get 9-12 months of age. They will eventually turn into open sores probably do to scratching.

Feed em off once the lumps start gettin pretty bad and start a new group.

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Originally Posted by llovelace

They are prone to this, that's wahy it is suggested that they be fed off after 5-6 months of breeding.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

You can try anti-biotics, and warm compresses.

It could be pink-eye. Which can spread to your entire colony. :(
It can also be caused by tooth abscesses. If you notice a lump in their jaw, that is likely the cause. Nothing can really be done about this, other than large amounts of expensive surgery.

If it's pink eye, it can be treated, but you'll want to quarantine the animals. It can spread.

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LOL, NO.

It just happens.... usually in older breeders around "retirement"... but sometimes happens to younger ones too. It ain't pink eye or tooth abscesses... It is a trait of the species.

I usually ignore it... Usually it is mild and does not have much effect on them. Every once in it there is a rat that seems to really be effected by it, those get fed off.

Getting infections in the eye is not a 'trait of the species' it means that your animal is sick, no matter how you look at it. Sure they might be prone to them, but it still means they're sick.

Animals with curly fur, are also prone to eye infections, are we going to call that a 'trait of the species' and not treat them? No.

At the very least, warm compresses and anti-biotics can solve your problem. Anti-biotics are cheap, and easy to administer, and if your ASFs are even slightly handleable, you should be able to hold them still long enough to clean their eye, administer medication (wether it be in the eye, or orally), and hold on a compress for a minute.

LOL feed them off! time to switch out breeders,around 50% of older breeders get it also wait till you see the warts they get eweeeeee.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

Getting infections in the eye is not a 'trait of the species' it means that your animal is sick, no matter how you look at it. Sure they might be prone to them, but it still means they're sick.

Animals with curly fur, are also prone to eye infections, are we going to call that a 'trait of the species' and not treat them? No.

At the very least, warm compresses and anti-biotics can solve your problem. Anti-biotics are cheap, and easy to administer, and if your ASFs are even slightly handleable, you should be able to hold them still long enough to clean their eye, administer medication (wether it be in the eye, or orally), and hold on a compress for a minute.

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I am not trying to attack you personally. IMHO I just think you are giving bad advice... and to be honest the things that you are suggesting (like the warm compress) makes it pretty clear that you probably have had limited to no experience with this species.

Again, I am not trying to fight with you or anything negative. I suggest you get some more hands on experience with the species before you start handing out "medical advice" on them.

Should antibiotics be used in their eye? NO.

Should warm compress be used? NO! although it would make a funny utube video if it were done with bare hands....

Is it something that will spread from one rat to another by contact? No.

Is it a genetic disorder? Yes, I believe so. It happens in one of my lines more then the others...

What is it? Not sure, I certainly don't claim to be a vet. My educated guess though would be allergies of some kind.... though food and bedding changes don't fix it.

Like I said earlier. Usually it is mild and does not effect them. If it is ever a bad case and they seem to be effected by it, simply feed off and replace. Remember these are FEEDERS!

Mike

Mike,

In my limited experience, I’ve noticed this as well. At first I thought I had sick rats so I fed them off. I started new colonies from different lines and it still happens occasionally. I’ve noticed it in only females but again, that's just my experience. In addition to a sometimes disgusting eye, I’ve had 2 females also show something that looked like tumors on their tails. I say tumors, but in reality they look more like warts or bumps. I am not sure if they are anywhere other than the tail. They are just more visible on that hairless part of the body. This got me thinking that it could be something similar to cancer. This is of course just a thought and I have nothing but assumptions to base that on. If it were to be cancer or some genetic birth defect; I have wondered if it has anything to do with inbreeding. I limit inbreeding and add blood lines in my own collection but I have ALWAYS purchased my asf from a reptile show in Tampa. You also live in Florida so the possibility exists that we’re all working off relatives. Who knows if the infected colony that I first had isn’t simply 2nd or third cousins to the colony I have now. The last show I went to here only had 1 person who was selling live asf’s. With such limited options, how could I be sure this guy didn’t buy his rats from the same guy I did last year making my newest colony sisters to a colony I already have? I guess this could be a stretch but healthy animals don’t just develop the horrid infections that I’ve seen.
IMHO I don’t know how I feel about it being allergies. I’ve noticed the problem waxes and wanes with individuals even though I haven’t changed anything.
I agree that this is not being transferred to others by contact.
The only unique thing I’ve tried to help the issue is giving the infected rat a bath. Yes, a bath and I only did it once but it had positive results. This particular breeding female had been getting progressively worse and I wasn’t ready to feed her off. She was having great litters and all in all everything else was perfect. So I ran about an inch of lukewarm water in my bathtub. I put a space heater in the bathroom to get the room nice and comfortable for her when she came out. I DID NOT use any soap or medicine, only water. I tried to limit the emotional trauma as much as possible so all I did was gently pull her to the deep end (she could still stand above water) and let her run back to the shallow side (which wad no water at all.) I did this until I was confident that her eye had been rinsed well, about 5 minutes. I took her out and placed her (still in the warm room) in a deep plastic tub with an old towel. I let her chill out and dry off before I put her back in with her family. The result – I successfully removed the crud which apparently allowed the infection to clear up within about 24 hours. No, it’s not gone; it’s extraordinarily cleaner with less swelling and less mucus. The next time it happens, I intend to try it again.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I have recently had my first batches of ASF pups.
I am breeding for colour, and temperament in mine, and using the extras (or the duds) as feeders.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I handle mine from day 1+, this ensures that as adults ,they are used to being handled, and are easy to manipulate. :)

Are your ASFs skittish? Or are they generally slow moving and laid back?
I've never seen a skittish or high strung ASF, but if yours are, I'd suggest a few days wait before handling. Though, you should reach in and stroke the mother on the back if you can, to let her realize you aren't a threat to her, or the litter.

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You know, for just having your first litter you really seem to know a lot about the species.

I think that anyone that has been breeding them for some time now can agree that they are prone to getting these bumps with age. It isnt just around the eyes, they get them all over their bodies.

As Mike states, they are FEEDERS. Feed them off, simple as that.

I still stand by my recommendations on treatment.
And I don't disagree (for the second or third time) that they are prone to them. But it needs to be treated or the animal will DIE, which it seems like the OP doesn't want


ALSO, I think the OP is keeping these animals as pets, seeing as how they asked about taking it to the -vet- which is something a feeder breeder would almost never do.
They didn't ask how to kill their animal, they asked how to treat it, so no, it's not as simple as that, you're response isn't answering their question :)

Pink eye, can be transfered from one animal to another. IF IT IS PINK EYE, it can be transfered.
The poster didn't provide photos, so I was covering all bases.

Warm compresses, and washing are a GREAT treatment for rodent problems. I don't know why you'd discourage them at all. :colbert:

And yes, there are antibiotics, for rodents, that go -in- the eye. It's a cream.

Since your solution to all medical problems seem to be 'feed them off' you clearly must not have much experience in treating medical issues in rodents. So don't be so quick to dismiss helpful advice that may help someone's animals. :)

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I still stand by my recommendations on treatment.
And I don't disagree (for the second or third time) that they are prone to them. But it needs to be treated or the animal will DIE, which it seems like the OP doesn't want


ALSO, I think the OP is keeping these animals as pets, seeing as how they asked about taking it to the -vet- which is something a feeder breeder would almost never do.
They didn't ask how to kill their animal, they asked how to treat it, so no, it's not as simple as that, you're response isn't answering their question :)

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This is in the FEEDERS section of a forum. This leads me to believe they are FEEDERS.

Sorry , I failed to mention that these are feeders. I am relatively new (6 months or so) with breeding rodents and these are the only two that I have with this issue. I was only considering going to the vet due to the fact that they are both nursing mothers to a litter of nearly of nearly 20 pups each that are only a week old. Since this does not sound to be immediately life threatening , I will likely skip the vet and will eventually feed them off as the pups are weaned off. I haven't had a moment to get the photos up but I will provide just for reference sake before the end of tommorow. Until this post I did not realize that it is common for ASF's to get eye infections. Do they have any other issues I should look out for ?

This is a stupid argument. I'm going to clear it up right now. Diseases that look similar in other species does not mean they are the same disease that we see in humans. This is nothing even CLOSE to what pink eye looks like, so I don't know why you guys keep mentioning it. I have fed off large amounts of animals with this condition. It is in the entire species and it's just the way things are.

This is an issue of tumors that form around the eyes, legs, mouth and genitals. The tumors are called keratoacanthomas and squamous carcinomas, are associated with a papillomavirus.

Some rats are more prone to the virus due to their genetics, but the virus has practically infected the entire species (similar to how certain cold strains are fought off in people but occasionally kill people who are prone) so it is genetically influenced.

There is no known way to treat it, some rats can fight it off but others will get worse. Some may never show signs of the tumors. Antibiotics don't work on viruses, friends.

You can read a little bit more about it here:
http://www.metalmonkeyexotics.com/blog/?page_id=333 Connie and Chris sum up the issue pretty nicely there.
There are also a few papers that have been written on the subject, and you can look them up if you're interested.

P.S.
I have found through experience that if I delay cleaning or the bedding is particularly dusty, the tumors and infected eyes tend to get worse. Consistent cleaning can prevent irritants to the tumors which are often bit and scratched open, but feeding them off is best.

I use the ASF section here, because it is more widely used than an ASF pet forum, even though mine are not feeders. I know of several other people who do this as well.
Ericzerka, even though they are feeders (the OP has spoken!) he still asked how to treat. :P

Pink eye can, and will affect rodents, and in fact, can and will transfer from rodents to humans, and vice versa.
I was not arguing that the eye problem isn't what you're saying it is. :P
I was simply covering all bases, and suggesting treatments for the animals since the poster asked. The treatment would be affective whether it's the standard 'tumor' problem (for the symptoms), pink eye, URI, or tooth abscess.

Washing, warm compresses, and a bit of antibiotics (this won't make the tumors go away necessarily, but it will fight off bacteria that collect in the effected area, and prevent further infection) can keep the problem at bay until your litters are weaned. At which point, I would suggest culling.
If your ASFs are not easily handled, then you can scruff them (they usually respond well to this, and go stiff) with a leather glove (if necessary) hold them gently against something (like your leg, if you're sitting) and treat the symptoms.

If your ASF gets too sick, it will not eat enough food, and digest it properly to nurse its litter, so I would do anything you can to make it more comfortable, while it's nursing.

How old is your litter? Hopefully not too young!

:weirdface,they are feeders served their purpose feed them off start a new group :D

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Originally Posted by Sabresfan88

Sorry , I failed to mention that these are feeders.

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Given those are FEEDERS at this point you need to decide what the best course of action is, which imply a solution that is the easiest, fastest and most cost effective one.

Animal that are feeders or produce feeders to me means that sooner or later they will meet with a snake and in the case of disease, injury or lack of production, it generally translates as SOONER. (might sound cruel to some but those to me are not pets they are feeders)

If you feel they are worth to be treated than by all means do so however in your position I would feed them of and start again from scratch :gj:

Ok Rhasputin, you don't seem to be getting the point so please allow me be a little more direct. Again this is not meant as a personal attack against you. We always welcome new folks on these forums, and I am glad to have you here.

That said, please stop giving medical advice that you are in no way, shape, or form qualified to give. Everything you have suggested:

*Putting antibiotic in their eye
*Applying warm compress
*Separating the rat with the symptoms until it clears up
*Giving them a bath
*It may be pink eye
*It is contagious
*It is a tooth abscesses
*It is from imbreeding.
*An asf with eye issues or sores will stop feeding making it not able to provide for its babies
*If it goes untreated the animal will die


All of these things are simply WRONG.

You suggesting that my practice of feeding off the unhealthy ones is a result of some kind of lack of experience is laughable. It also further demonstrates your current knowledge level, and why others should proceed with extreme caution before following any advice you give on anything having to do with ASF's.

Please just take a step back and do some more reading and learning before giving medical advice. Trust me. Once you have been breeding them for a couple years you will come back to this thread and you will laugh at your own replies.

Good Day Sir,

Mike

*Putting antibiotic in their eye :gj:
*Applying warm compress :gj:
*Separating the rat with the symptoms until it clears up :gj:
*Giving them a bath :gj:
*It may be pink eye :gj:
*It is contagious :gj: (If it was pink eye, it IS contagious)
*It is from imbreeding. :colbert: (I think you mean INbreeding)
*An asf with eye issues or sores will stop feeding making it not able to provide for its babies :colbert:
*If it goes untreated the animal will die :colbert:

All of these things (with a :gj:) are proper ways of treating small mammals. FACT

I didn't say that the ASF will stop feeding. Never said that. But if an ASF is sick, it will effect the appetite, and it it's not not getting enough nutrition, it will not be able to properly raise a healthy and hearty litter. FACT.

There is GREAT potential for the animal to die if it is untreated. The infection can spread, the pain can cause appetite loss, and a great NUMBER of other things. The animal isn't 100% guaranteed to die from the problem, but it's likely going to be the cause of its demise if a severe case is untreated.

ASFs get pink eye, and it can spread. This case may not be pink eye, but it -can- and will happen. Like I said I was covering all bases when I mentioned pink eye.


I don't understand why you continue to fight me on this. These things are facts.
I have treated many a rodent in my time, and treatment for ASFs is just as you would treat a rat, mouse, or hamster, or whatever! (Also, ASFs are -not- rats)


Feeding off un-healthy ones isn't why you appear inexperienced in treating these animals. It's the fact that when someone ASKS for assistance in treating an animal, instead of giving advice on how to do so, you have repeatedly told them to kill off the animal. It's obviously not what the poster wants, or asked for, so there's no need to repeat yourself, or argue any further. :oops:

To the Original Poster: If you want your litters to survive, and be healthy, keep an eye on the mothers. If the problem worsens, treat them for their symptoms and cull them once the litters are weaned. If the mother's are losing weight try feeding them scrambled eggs, and meat scraps for an extra boost. If their eyes swell shut, cleaning them with a wet q-tip may help. If the eye gets 'glued' (by eye 'gook') shut, then definitely clean it off, or it will only get worse.

Alternatively, you can go ahead and cull the mothers, and hand-raise the litters, but this is very difficult, even for an experienced hand rearer, and is suggested as a last resort. Kitten milk from the pet store, or KMR are good formulas to feed the babies.

Plain and simple fed them off. Foster the babies out. Do not start another group with the babies of this group. I do all of this on a regular basis. Whether or not it is contagious you don't want the other animals to contract it if it is.

That's some reasonable advice. :)

Teresa, why is it that you don't start a new group with the babies? Do you do it to discontinue the genes?

I'm done with this stupid arguement....IMO and from MY EXPERIENCE, feed them off....over and out

If I find a problem with the breeders I do not want to deal with in the future I try to eliminate that gene all together. For example I have a line of ambers I was working with that constantly produced well but ate half of their babies buy weaning. I thought it was a protein thing so I kept back 4 females and two males, changed the food to a higher protein. I mixed them with some of the pieds and the amber females continued to eat their babies. I deiced to reduced the amber genes down to 1 amber male and fed of most of the amber females. I am down to only one amber female who produces large litters and she has not eaten any offspring as of yet. This is just an example of how I have weeded out the "bad seeds" if you will.

Sounds good. :gj:
I thought that is what you meant, but was not 100% with the way it was originally worded. :)
I am the same way with my show (mouse) breeders. If anyone catches a cold, or gets a URI, and cannot over come it themselves, they are weeded out. For show animals, this is very important, because their health needs to be 100% at all times to maintain the proper standards for showing! ;)

I feel no further need to argue with you about why each and every one of your suggested treatments is WRONG. Those that have been around for a while and have more experience with the species already know why.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I didn't say that the ASF will stop feeding. Never said that. But if an ASF is sick, it will effect the appetite, and it it's not not getting enough nutrition, it will not be able to properly raise a healthy and hearty litter. FACT.

There is GREAT potential for the animal to die if it is untreated. The infection can spread, the pain can cause appetite loss, and a great NUMBER of other things. The animal isn't 100% guaranteed to die from the problem, but it's likely going to be the cause of its demise if a severe case is untreated.

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Seriously I have to ask. Are you just making this crap up as you go? I have NEVER seen a case where the eye condition mentioned has led to the death of an animal... nor have I ever seen it cause the mom to not be able to properly raise a litter... nor have I seen it spread in some way to other parts of the body.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

ASFs get pink eye, and it can spread. This case may not be pink eye, but it -can- and will happen. Like I said I was covering all bases when I mentioned pink eye.

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Oh they do huh? That is very interesting. I don't recall hearing of a veterinary confirmed case of pink eye in ASF's. So I guess we will have to take your word on that...

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I don't understand why you continue to fight me on this. These things are facts.
I have treated many a rodent in my time, and treatment for ASFs is just as you would treat a rat, mouse, or hamster, or whatever! (Also, ASFs are -not- rats)

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Hang around these forums a little longer and you will learn that when you declare something as a "fact" people won't just take your word for it. Thankfully.

You are making the simple mistake of taking your apparent knowledge of mice and rats and assuming that it also applies to ASF's. Some of us have been around ASF's for a LONG time. This line of thinking is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

Feeding off un-healthy ones isn't why you appear inexperienced in treating these animals. It's the fact that when someone ASKS for assistance in treating an animal, instead of giving advice on how to do so, you have repeatedly told them to kill off the animal. It's obviously not what the poster wants, or asked for, so there's no need to repeat yourself, or argue any further. :oops:

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We are in the feeder section of a snake forum. The OP who is raising feeder ASF's asked a question about an eye condition, and how best to treat it. The only correct answer from a feeder breeder standpoint is to feed off. This is in the best interest of the animal and the breeders time, production, and money. That is why EVERYONE who actually has substantial experience breeding the species has also recommended feeding them off.

Luckily, it appears as though the OP got the answer they were looking for:

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Originally Posted by Sabresfan88

Sorry , I failed to mention that these are feeders... Since this does not sound to be immediately life threatening , I will likely skip the vet and will eventually feed them off as the pups are weaned off.

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:rolleyes:


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