T+ t-

i have a male 100% double het T+ &T- 50% pos het ghost. i was wondering if anyone else knows of any attepmts at the combo. i'd LOVE to find a double het female but i dont know of anyone else who's done the carmel albino x albino pairing. does anyone know that it wont work? i would think the genes would have to meet up somewhere. everyone feel free to chime in on the topic. i also want to hear some opinions about the combo.

thanks
Ryan Cowart

I don'think many people would try it since the T- will most likly make it so you cant see the t+. it will just look albino. You might not know you have a double recessive without breeding it to prove it out.

Who knows mayb something crazy will happen but I wouldn't count on it.

Yeah, it's like a 99.9% chance that the combination will be indistinguishable from a normal albino. "Normal" amelanism (T-) results in a failure to produce the enzyme tyrosinase. In "Caramel" amelanism, the tyrosinase is still present, but it fails to manufacture melanin, most likely due to a mutation on one of the active sites of the tyrosinase enzyme.

I suppose there may be a minuscule chance for paradoxism to occur in a double homozygous individual that could result in an albino with caramel spots, which would definitely allow you to distinguish one in the rare event of paradoxism. If indeed possible, however, the chances of actually hatching one are extremely unlikely, considering how rare normal paradox albinos are. If the mechanism behind paradoxism in albino ball pythons is determined to be genetic in some manner, that may be a worthwhile project, but at the moment paradoxism appears to be a freak occurrence.

I think it would be an awesome project. You will never know what comes out unless you try it. Imagine cutting a clutch and getting albinos het caramel and caramels het albino and possibly a double albino. just my .02 cents.

I would have to agree with the below. If this pairing created something crazy one of the bigger breeders would have already done it and we'd see examples of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Russ Lawson

Yeah, it's like a 99.9% chance that the combination will be indistinguishable from a normal albino. "Normal" amelanism (T-) results in a failure to produce the enzyme tyrosinase. In "Caramel" amelanism, the tyrosinase is still present, but it fails to manufacture melanin, most likely due to a mutation on one of the active sites of the tyrosinase enzyme.

I suppose there may be a minuscule chance for paradoxism to occur in a double homozygous individual that could result in an albino with caramel spots, which would definitely allow you to distinguish one in the rare event of paradoxism. If indeed possible, however, the chances of actually hatching one are extremely unlikely, considering how rare normal paradox albinos are. If the mechanism behind paradoxism in albino ball pythons is determined to be genetic in some manner, that may be a worthwhile project, but at the moment paradoxism appears to be a freak occurrence.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meeistom

I would have to agree with the below. If this pairing created something crazy one of the bigger breeders would have already done it and we'd see examples of it.

---

Why would you say that? If we don't know what it creates, then we can only assume. Most people would assume it to look like an albino, therfore its not a project worth going forward with (money wise), so its not going to be the big breeders that do it, but hobbist.

I do know this the caramel lavender looks like a combo of the two Morphs so it's worth a try



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well for lets say Nerd who has several of of both most likely has tried at least once just to see. For them it's a small 1 clutch loss if it doesn't pan out. In the grand scheme of the sheer of ball they breed every year it wouldn't hurt them. The hobbyist on the other hand a 1 clutch lose would most likely mean a lot more to them. Neither of these things are uncommon and it just seems extremely likely someone has tried it before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Why would you say that? If we don't know what it creates, then we can only assume. Most people would assume it to look like an albino, therfore its not a project worth going forward with (money wise), so its not going to be the big breeders that do it, but hobbist.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I do know this the caramel lavender looks like a combo of the two Morphs so it's worth a try



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Didn't know this had been made. Would you be so kind as to link a picture of it? I'm not really sure, but I think your explanation may be due to a small presence of melanin (or another pigment) in the lavender albinos responsible for the lavender colouration. However, having not seen it myself, I can't be sure about this theory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meeistom

Well for lets say Nerd who has several of of both most likely has tried at least once just to see. For them it's a small 1 clutch loss if it doesn't pan out. In the grand scheme of the sheer of ball they breed every year it wouldn't hurt them. The hobbyist on the other hand a 1 clutch lose would most likely mean a lot more to them. Neither of these things are uncommon and it just seems extremely likely someone has tried it before.

---

you may think that way, but breeders don't "just try to see" when the end result is most likly undesirable, its not just 1 small clutch, its a couple years project at the very least, look at it from the breeder perspective, im going to spend a couple years making this and at the end of it, most likly i wouldn't know i made it and have to spend another year or so proving it out, then my suspected result of "yup looks like an albino" hardly seems spending time on unless you really don't care about the money, like hobbists

I'm not saying breeders are in it just for the money, but with large collections you gotta make money to support all those animals. us hobbist don't lose our buisness and home if we don't stay on top of the "next best thing"

thanks everyone. im just gonna make a little side project out of it. well see in a couple years what happens. i'll be happy to produce either of the two so its kinda win win for me:)

NERD's original import caramel male was apparently het for regular albino too. Corey Woods reported getting albinos out of a pair of NERD het caramels years ago and NERD reported getting albinos from a caramel daughter. It got me wondering if albino and caramel might be alleles but recent reports of normal looking double hets like your male have proven that not to be the case. So, there might be some double homozygous albino + caramel animals out there by now but they might not be identified, especially if they do look albinos.

I've got three sisters I hope to breed this year whose father was 66% chance het caramel and their mother a now proven het albino. I only got the one clutch out of the father so never a chance for him to prove. If I can get my 2010 het caramel male (who is also 50% chance het hypo and 66% chance het TSK axanthic) up to size I'll put him on them first and back him up with my het albino + 66% chance het stripe male. That 2010 male being a 100% het caramel is strange territory for me as I almost always start out with possible hets lol (the het albino male started out as 66% but proved with the originally 50% chance het albino mom last year).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by merdcme

thanks everyone. im just gonna make a little side project out of it. well see in a couple years what happens. i'll be happy to produce either of the two so its kinda win win for me:)

---

I really like the idea of multiple het pairs. Some people might be scared away by the long odds of hitting the multiple homozygous animal but I also look at it as a positive with more chances of producing some sort of morph. For example, if you could get a quadruple het pair sure there would only be a 1 in 256 chance of hitting the quadruple homozygous but the per egg odds of normal go down to about 32% from 75% with hets for a single recessive mutation. And you could get new combos every clutch.