Possible Phantom or am I losing my mind?

Ok, so this is my big girl, and I thought from the beginning that she was a mojo...she's got the looks of mojo just a bit darker and white blushing stops short on the sides, but I always knew she was a bit.....different. So making a long story a bit shorter she laid her first clutch this July and they pipped the other day...and they don't look like mojos, I've been searching high and low and upsidedown and backwards to find out what I've got on my hands and these babies look like little phantoms. Nice pink blushing up the sides between their little "alien heads" and "doughnuts"....basically they look a lot like mom. They were bred from her and an Axanthic Reduced Pattern male so I'm just trying to figure them out. They're still very much in the eggs but here are couple pictures of mom. I'll get pics of the little ones as soon as they're out and cleaned up.

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...fd6ffb98f1.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...b5b5149c6c.jpg

pics with better lighting would be more helpful :)

Not to rain on your parade, but I see nothing that would indicate a phantom (or mojave) in those pics.
Nice normal.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Not to rain on your parade, but I see nothing that would indicate a phantom (or mojave) in those pics.
Nice normal.

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I have to agree. Sorry. She looks like a pretty normal to me.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Not to rain on your parade, but I see nothing that would indicate a phantom (or mojave) in those pics.
Nice normal.

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x2

No Mojo, She is a looker though.

I guess she seemed like something other than a normal to me. She just doesnt have that normal look to her...the lighting is crap I agree but I dunno I just don't see many normals that carry her type of pattern. Normals shall always elude me :confused:

How come i've seen like two dozen threads in the past week by people with normals thinking (or just hoping) that they have morphs when they really have normals?

Not to rain on the OP's parade or anything.. sorry :(

For the most part it's EXTREMELY easy to identify a normal from a visual morph. Normals are highly variable, but still pretty easy to tell apart from the proven morphs in the hobby.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

How come i've seen like two dozen threads in the past week by people with normals thinking (or just hoping) that they have morphs when they really have normals?

Not to rain on the OP's parade or anything.. sorry :(

For the most part it's EXTREMELY easy to identify a normal from a visual morph. Normals are highly variable, but still pretty easy to tell apart from the proven morphs in the hobby.

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Until you see the "morph" in person it sometimes is hard to figure it out. The pics online sometimes make you wonder and there are always "poor quality" morphs. Take the YB for instance, there are those that scream YB and then there are ones that don't.

Best thing to do is to breed your ??? to something that will make a super or something that there is NO mistake what it is you have

Yes yes I know the difference between an albino compared to a normal, or a spider, pastel, bees, etc. BUT there are the ones that aren't much different from a normal ball python. For example a yellowbelly is not a looker of a snake, they're often pretty darn plain but yet it's still a morph is it not....and like the mystics and phantoms...they aren't that much different from a normal when looking at them. So yeah there are a few of us out there who are still working out the kinks between a normal and something not so normal. Don't get me wrong, I have normals, and I KNOW they're normal, I'm not sittig here saying oh that spot is half a centimeter to the left of where it SHOULD be, it must be a morph. But visually this girl looks not a thing like my normals or any of the many many normals I've seen. I've seen some oddball dinkers who she resembles but when I look at her she just doesn't look like your average normal. I'm not trying to hit some morph jackpot here thinking she's some rare new morph of snake that I can sell for boat loads of money, I just wanted to know if she could possibly be something a bit different. I've seen many posts on here as well where the snake is a flat out normal beyond any doubt but I'm sorry if my girl didn't catch me as your average ball. I guess I feel like some of us who aren't quite sure and take the time to ask and then get that feeling of being stomped down into stupidity from the feedback we get kinda makes it where it's pointless to ask. I'm not disappointed with her at all, she's still a gorgeous snake no matter what and her babies are all little beauties that do carry some nice genes but I don't feel so optimistic about posting a picture question again, a lot of us are still starting and really just need some genuine helpful feedback instead of a rant about the multitude of normals they see on here.
Edit: Thanks for the positive feedback boasandballs, gonna breed some back to the parents and see what pops out.

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Originally Posted by c0ldphyer

Yes yes I know the difference between an albino compared to a normal, or a spider, pastel, bees, etc. BUT there are the ones that aren't much different from a normal ball python. For example a yellowbelly is not a looker of a snake, they're often pretty darn plain but yet it's still a morph is it not....and like the mystics and phantoms...they aren't that much different from a normal when looking at them. So yeah there are a few of us out there who are still working out the kinks between a normal and something not so normal. Don't get me wrong, I have normals, and I KNOW they're normal, I'm not sittig here saying oh that spot is half a centimeter to the left of where it SHOULD be, it must be a morph. But visually this girl looks not a thing like my normals or any of the many many normals I've seen. I've seen some oddball dinkers who she resembles but when I look at her she just doesn't look like your average normal. I'm not trying to hit some morph jackpot here thinking she's some rare new morph of snake that I can sell for boat loads of money, I just wanted to know if she could possibly be something a bit different. I've seen many posts on here as well where the snake is a flat out normal beyond any doubt but I'm sorry if my girl didn't catch me as your average ball. I guess I feel like some of us who aren't quite sure and take the time to ask and then get that feeling of being stomped down into stupidity from the feedback we get kinda makes it where it's pointless to ask. I'm not disappointed with her at all, she's still a gorgeous snake no matter what and her babies are all little beauties that do carry some nice genes but I don't feel so optimistic about posting a picture question again, a lot of us are still starting and really just need some genuine helpful feedback instead of a rant about the multitude of normals they see on here.
Edit: Thanks for the positive feedback boasandballs, gonna breed some back to the parents and see what pops out.

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If your that positive that is it something, just breed it out and see. It's as simple as that. She's a very pretty snake, but Im going to agree with the majority that it's just a really good looking normal. Very nice pattern.

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How come i've seen like two dozen threads in the past week by people with normals thinking (or just hoping) that they have morphs when they really have normals?

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Because maybe people are interested in other views on their animals. If it bothers you, dont open the thread. I'm jut saying.

Just my $0.02

If you thought you had a mojo or a phantom, why didnt you breed her to a mojo and try to prove it out?

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"but when I look at her she just doesn't look like your average normal."

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Could you please define for me what an "average normal" is?
What are it's colours?
Patterns?
Hues?
Exactly.
I've seen thousands of normals over the years, and not ONE of them looks like another.
That's the joy of owning normals, NONE of them look alike.
Again, noce normal.

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Originally Posted by c0ldphyer

Yes yes I know the difference between an albino compared to a normal, or a spider, pastel, bees, etc. BUT there are the ones that aren't much different from a normal ball python. For example a yellowbelly is not a looker of a snake, they're often pretty darn plain but yet it's still a morph is it not....and like the mystics and phantoms...they aren't that much different from a normal when looking at them. So yeah there are a few of us out there who are still working out the kinks between a normal and something not so normal. Don't get me wrong, I have normals, and I KNOW they're normal, I'm not sittig here saying oh that spot is half a centimeter to the left of where it SHOULD be, it must be a morph. But visually this girl looks not a thing like my normals or any of the many many normals I've seen. I've seen some oddball dinkers who she resembles but when I look at her she just doesn't look like your average normal. I'm not trying to hit some morph jackpot here thinking she's some rare new morph of snake that I can sell for boat loads of money, I just wanted to know if she could possibly be something a bit different. I've seen many posts on here as well where the snake is a flat out normal beyond any doubt but I'm sorry if my girl didn't catch me as your average ball. I guess I feel like some of us who aren't quite sure and take the time to ask and then get that feeling of being stomped down into stupidity from the feedback we get kinda makes it where it's pointless to ask. I'm not disappointed with her at all, she's still a gorgeous snake no matter what and her babies are all little beauties that do carry some nice genes but I don't feel so optimistic about posting a picture question again, a lot of us are still starting and really just need some genuine helpful feedback instead of a rant about the multitude of normals they see on here.
Edit: Thanks for the positive feedback boasandballs, gonna breed some back to the parents and see what pops out.

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I understand your frustration. You have gathered good advise though on this thread and that is to breed her and see if the pattern is reproducable or if she makes some good combos.

Just for your info (just trying to help not being a smart butt or disrespectful) I have probably 5 balls in my collection that I think look "not quite normal". However I consider them normals until their pattern or color proves heritable.

So on that note your girl looks like a nice busy pattern normal to me but I would love for you to prove me wrong!

Good Luck with this fun dinker project.

Very pretty girl. I really don't think her a Mojave either. I've done a lot of research into popular morphs, and if you study pictures of morphs here, it becomes a lot easier to spot them.

I agree that because normals are just so variable, it becomes something of a challenge to pick out the nicest normals. I have a really nice normal girl who doesn't look like most others I've seen. She has a really lovely patten, and what's the coolest thing about her is the spots inside her alien heads are a different color than her body. She's really lovely and special looking.

Gale

Can anyone post pics of a normal and a phantom?? i think that would make this a lil easier instead of just arguing

I do appreciate the helpful input guys, with all the breeding going on in balls its easy to get confused by a "looker" normal I suppose. So far one of her offspring is out of the egg and looks just like mom with some nice back pattern additions, dads reduced pattern didn't pass over one bit even though reduced pattern is a dominant trait? I'm not complaining, he's still very much Axanthic so my little ones are packing a secret weapon in their genes. I've seen many pictures of both normals and phantoms these past few days so I don't think any more will help. Whatever mom's packing in that pattern she's got she surely did give it all to her babies. I'm pretty surprised out of 9 that not 1 is reduced. If they all turn out just as nice as mom they'll definitely make for good breeders to future morphs. I wouldnt mind adding some of that patterning to my pastel :P

congrats! hang on to the babies and breed the males back to mom and see what pops out. they may not look like much but the only way to prove otherwise is by breeding

Ive posted many pics of my YB's and the guys on here say they are normals so... I took them to pro's to get an experts opinion, thats realy the best thing you can do. Sometimes the cam cam is weak or the lighting is weak but either way getting opinions from people you may know or people you can take your pets is ideal. I can see why you say mojave, she has those round alien heads and blush sides. I would say she's not but since I cant see her in person dont take my word for it.(plus some people have nice looking mojaves so they might not know what a poor mans mojave looks like.. lol)

I'm still no good with subtle morphs. The best advise I can offer is to look at as many pictures of a specific morph as you can find, at least then you can start to pick out traits for certain morphs.

Gale

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Originally Posted by c0ldphyer

I do appreciate the helpful input guys, with all the breeding going on in balls its easy to get confused by a "looker" normal I suppose. So far one of her offspring is out of the egg and looks just like mom with some nice back pattern additions, dads reduced pattern didn't pass over one bit even though reduced pattern is a dominant trait? I'm not complaining, he's still very much Axanthic so my little ones are packing a secret weapon in their genes. I've seen many pictures of both normals and phantoms these past few days so I don't think any more will help. Whatever mom's packing in that pattern she's got she surely did give it all to her babies. I'm pretty surprised out of 9 that not 1 is reduced. If they all turn out just as nice as mom they'll definitely make for good breeders to future morphs. I wouldnt mind adding some of that patterning to my pastel :P

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as far as i know is it not clear that all reduced pattern are dominant. there is a genetic trait, but thats really the minority. the majority are NOT genetic!

u can go check out hunters guide to the morphs. he says a bit about how a (most likely) reduced pattern (genetlc) can be determed.

that u dont have any reduced babies in that clutch doesnt neccessary mean that ur babys carry a "secret waepon" in their genes. most likely the reduced wasnt genetic and thats why u dont got any reduced patterned babys

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Originally Posted by joe23

most likely the reduced wasnt genetic and thats why u dont got any reduced patterned babys

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It's even a bit more complicated than that. Patterns tend to be genetic, but they are POLYGENETIC. This means that there's more than a single allele determining pattern, and that makes specific pattern much more difficult to breed for.

HOWEVER, people have shown that in general, if you have reduced pattern parents, you're more likely to throw reduced pattern offspring.

Line breeding is powerful, but it requires a quality original bloodline, selective keep-backs, and a few generations to show consistent results.