Cinnamon Sugar Ball

Hatched this little girl a couple of months ago...

http://www.constrictormorphs.co.uk/cinny3.jpg

http://www.constrictormorphs.co.uk/cinny4.jpg

I'm new to the Sugar thing and hope to produce some Combo's myself..So can you point out what you're seeing that tells you there is Sugar in this animal..

Many thanks for your help.

As you can see she is low white but apparently all calico and suagr cinny's are. Her tail is the biggest giveaway, heres a pic of her belly that shows what I mean...

http://www.constrictormorphs.co.uk/cinny2.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

As you can see she is low white but apparently all calico and suagr cinny's are. Her tail is the biggest giveaway, heres a pic of her belly that shows what I mean...

http://www.constrictormorphs.co.uk/cinny2.jpg

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Ok again Help me out.. what about her tail..the only Cinni Sugar/Calico I have to compare her to is this one
http://www.nextworldexotics.com/imag...NACAL1c16c.jpg

http://www.nextworldexotics.com/imag...nnalcalC16.jpg

If you look at the tail end on the belly shot you can see that either side it is a pale yellow colour, this is something that Sugars tend to have.

I do own a Sugar and have seen an extensive number of them to confidently say that that is not a Sugar.

Pictures of my "Normal" Sugar:
http://leon2ky.com/leon/jkr_08012010/sugar_001.jpg
http://leon2ky.com/leon/jkr_08012010/sugar_002.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

If you look at the tail end on the belly shot you can see that either side it is a pale yellow colour, this is something that Sugars tend to have.

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I'm sure I could show you a few Yellow Bellys with the same thing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

If you look at the tail end on the belly shot you can see that either side it is a pale yellow colour, this is something that Sugars tend to have.

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Yes they do.. but I have 5 snakes that have 0 Sugar in them that have that.. We call them ringers..And while its a very slight low low LOW ringer maybe.. I'm not seeing any of the pattern, color or really anything saying sugar..

I know that sugars have that Orange sometimes
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...o/DSC_0700.jpg

I also know that stuff that has no sugar in it can have that like this pastel ringer we produce last year
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/DSC_0230.jpg

I saw you had them up for sale and was only wondering cause I didn't see the sugar in her..

Best of luck!

She was from a sugar x pewter breeding so no yb in there! If you can show me a pic of a cinny with a belly like this then please do so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

She was from a sugar x pewter breeding so no yb in there! If you can show me a pic of a cinny with a belly like this then please do so.

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http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSC_0253.jpg

and a Pewter with an even cleaner belly and way more white than that..

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/2805eff8.jpg

Not trying to hurt any ones feelings .... but...Definitely just a regular Cinnamon with no Sugar. I at least don't see any Sugar either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

She was from a sugar x pewter breeding so no yb in there! If you can show me a pic of a cinny with a belly like this then please do so.

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You misunderstood what I was saying.

I meant that that is not a "Sugar" trait, that's a fairly common occurrence amongst ball morphs. It looks to me that you're basing that off what looks kind of like a ringer.

I have a Black Pastel that came from a Black Pastel x Normal clutch with a similar ringer and a clear belly:

http://leon2ky.com/leon/blackpastel_...arkers_001.jpg
http://leon2ky.com/leon/blackpastel_...arkers_004.jpg
http://leon2ky.com/leon/blackpastel_...arkers_008.jpg

It looks to me like you missed on the odds my friend.

Pewters do have white bellies with white side because of the combo with the pastel gene. That cinny you posted has black markings down either side of its belly and if you look at mine it is white all the way up.

I appreciate what you are saying about ringers, I have seen and owned ringers before, but this is not one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

Pewters do have white bellies with white side because of the combo with the pastel gene. That cinny you posted has black markings down either side of its belly and if you look at mine it is white all the way up.

I appreciate what you are saying about ringers, I have seen and owned ringers before, but this is not one.

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Ok you know what you've got and that's cool with me.. Just trying to figure out what to look for..

Thanks!

Wow, too many replies and broadband thats on a go slow is not a good mix, answering about 3 messages behind!

I appreciate all your opinions on her. If you see her in real life you can see that she has Sugar in her and that's all I can say really. The belly is not the only thing I have based this on, just the thing I picked on for this thread to try and show someone a 'sign' of the sugar gene.

Thanks
Sam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

Pewters do have white bellies with white side because of the combo with the pastel gene. That cinny you posted has black markings down either side of its belly and if you look at mine it is white all the way up.

I appreciate what you are saying about ringers, I have seen and owned ringers before, but this is not one.

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Seriously mate have you ever seen a Pastel Sugar?

http://www.constrictormorphs.co.uk/available.html

The Pewter Sugar you have up on that page is not what I would think a Pewter Sugar would look like, but age would say everything about that animal.

This is what a True Pastel Sugar looks like:
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl5.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl6.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl7.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl8.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl9.jpg

I've also saw a few at the Daytona Show that look similar if not considerably more whacked out. There are other Breeders there in the UK you can double check this information with.

But Between the "Sugar Cinny" & the "Sugar Pewter" I think the Pewter is more likely to be a Sugar than the Cinny.

but this is a cinny sugar not a pastel sugar?!

This is the only pic I've seen of a pewer calico before... http://www.storesonlinepro.com/store...page/387200217

In Sam's defense here my calico het red cross probably will not show lots of white. However for some reason the belly on them is way cleaner than a calico or het red. just as Sam's pics show in his animal. The cinnacols that I have seen where low white, just as this will be if it is, but I never did look at the belly on those. Anybody have pics of a cinny calico cross belly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam_b

but this is a cinny sugar not a pastel sugar?!

This is the only pic I've seen of a pewer calico before... http://www.storesonlinepro.com/store...page/387200217

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It's not, the point was that generally speaking Sugars tend to get really whacked out with additional genes thrown in the mix.

And that Pewter Calico is a Black Pastel Pewter Calico, and Calicos aren't nearly as reactive as Sugar are.

Like I said the Pewter Sugar is most likely what you say it is but if that Cinny Sugar really is a Cinny Sugar, then I know that I will not be perusing the Black Pastel Sugar project.

Edit: Briz, I don't see a picture mate.

I know what you are saying about the sugar gene making patterns crazy but as with all morphs there are different 'severities'. I have hatched out sugars with 'normal' patterning and lots of white and I've also hatched out sugars with hardly any white but very whacked out patterning. All depends on the individual animal.

I posted that link to the pewter calico because I haven't seen any pics of pewter sugars to show! Nearest I could find.

On the cinny x sugar project, have you seen the super cinny calico, not what I hoped it would be...

Don't need to post pics MATE. If you read through everything Sam said and what I said about the belly. Look back at the normal cinny belly and the belly of the animal Sam posted and you should see the difference all the way down the snake. If not do what I did and pull your crosses out of your racks and look at the belly and compare it to the one on Sam's snake and what I said about the crosses I have in my racks. Do they look the same?

Am I the only one who is reasonably certain that this is in fact a Cinny Sugar? I mean it's definitely not a high white or extreme example, but it sure looks like one to me. That belly is not normal, even for a ringer. Unless we're saying it is not a Sugar and has a very mild 100% ringer belly? That seems far less likely. Congrats on the Cinnamon Sugar, don't let the comments get you down.

Cheers,
-Matt

Firstly thank you briz and Matt for helping point out what I see. Briz I have seen pictures of your calico het red and it’s beautiful. I’m sure these guys will tell you that you’ve missed the odds but congratulations anyway! I look forward to seeing the red axanthic calico.

Just wanted to put all my thoughts down on this in one post so here we go...

I’m going to start with the belly. Maybe it doesn’t come across very well in the pictures but it is much whiter and cleaner than any pure cinny that I have ever seen. In fact, thank you Aaron for posting the pictures of your black pastels belly as it clearly shows the faded black markings that cinnys and black pastels have and that this girl does not. The yellow ‘trails’ down either side of the belly are on every sugar I have ever produced with the exception of the pewter sugar. I would not expect her to have them though as pewters have such clean bellies that ride up their sides anyway. It is not just a ringer. I assume you have bred sugars before and so are basing your comments that this isn’t a sugar trait on past experience? If so I’d love to see pictures to show this so I know for future reference. Even sugars with more ‘normal’ patterning have tails like this (in MY experience).

Now for her patterning. There are more and less extreme examples of every morph out there. It’s just how it is. This girl hasn’t got the most extreme patterning ever but neither is it ‘standard’. If you look at the back half of her you will see that her pattern is more aberrant than the front half, particularly at the tail. This again is a trait that I have seen in all the sugars I have produced. Maybe with all your vast experience you have found different and again I would be interested to see examples.

The example of how aberrant the pastel sugar is has been used to try and ‘prove’ this girl isn’t a sugar. I do not see your logic on this as the pastel and cinny genes are completely different. Mixing them with other genes does different things to the other gene involved. Mixing them with themselves does completely different things, look at the difference between super pastels and super cinnys!! Just because pastel sugars have ‘whacked out’ patterns it does not mean that all sugars crosses will. It all depends on how the 2 genes work together. How many times have you seen a new combo and it doesn’t look how you expected? It’s because no one knows how 2 genes will react with each other until they have been crossed. Who would’ve thought mixing a YB with a spector would produce something like a superstripe?!

Just because I do not post on forums it does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. Just because you have seen pictures on the internet it does not mean you will know everything about a morph. You pick up on so much more details and traits of a morph once you have them in your collection and interact with them on a daily basis. I am by no means an expert in this field and nor will I ever claim to be. My first reaction when I saw the pewter and cinny sugars was that I had hit the odds, they just looked like they had sugar in them. I emailed pictures to various people who have a lot more experience than you or I with the sugar gene (I’m assuming so anyway, may be you have produced various crosses, in which case I apologise) and everyone has agreed that they are cinny and pewter sugars. I did this because although my immediate reaction was that I had hit the odds I do not have the experience with all the crosses and so wanted more experienced opinions.

Any I’ll stop now before I bore you all too much. Thank you for all your input on this thread.

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Originally Posted by briz

Don't need to post pics MATE.

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No need to get fussy, I misread your post and thought you were meaning to post a picture of your for-mentioned animals. I found a thread you posted with the het reds and I see what you are talking about.

I guess I'm wrong in this case, and I have to say I'm disappointed with the results of what a Cinny Sugar looks like. Congrats on hitting on it though.