I have a black pastel - do I also want a cinny?

Hi,

I already have a nice breeding male black pastel but someone has offered me a 250g cinny male in part exchange for my lesser male hatchling.

Are there any advantages to having a male of both? Any combo's different enough that I should consider both genes?

I do like how cinnys can look (not seen the animal yet ) but my main aims for the gene was 8balls and black lessers - and I think I prefer the black pastel version of both of those. :cool:

What are the pro's and cons?


dr del

To be honest, it's all up to personal preference. In most instances, you will be able to tell apart black pastel and cinnamon versions of combos (apart from anything with 8ball/super cinny in it). I personally prefer cinnamon combos, though the black pastel versions are also very attractive. I have no plans of adding black pastels to my collection because I prefer the cinnamons, but I know of several breeders who have both. The only real advantage of having both is that you will be able to attract people like myself who prefer cinnamons and cinnamon combos, who may otherwise not buy your black pastels or black pastel combos.

Oh, and as far as cons go, all I can think of is that if you add a cinnamon now, you may not to be able to add a different mutation you want to work with to your collection as soon as you would be able to if you sold the lesser outright over doing a partial trade.

If it were me, I would either not do the trade, or just keep the cinnamon, not both. But it all comes down to personal preference. :)

I would maybe consider the trade if it were a female instead of a male.

Id keep the lesser, black pastels and cinnys are so similar I don't think its worth having a male of each.

Black pastels and cinnies make the same combos, except cinnies are far uglier than a black pastel IMO.
If you're working with black pastels, stay away from cinnies; they'll just ugly-up your line.

Your lesser and the cinny are probably close value wise, but I don't see much point in having a cinny male a black pastel male. If it were a female sure, but for me at least, I would not add another single codom male to my collection when I already have something similar.

i would want a blk pastel to make combos darker.. a cinny does the opposite in most cases. i would stick to the blk pastel :gj:

I have both a cinnamon and a black pastel, even though the gene does react in similar ways they're really very different looking from each other and I'm glad I've got both kinds.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Black pastels and cinnies make the same combos, except cinnies are far uglier than a black pastel IMO.
If you're working with black pastels, stay away from cinnies; they'll just ugly-up your line.

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Would you call this ugly????

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ny122209_1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/09cpm3l.jpg

It IS a personal preference - I've always preferred cinnamons.

I have 1.2 Black Pastels and while I prefer Black Pastels over Cinnies, if the right Cinny (for example the daughter of the one above ;)) found it's way to my collection I would not turn it down. ;)

Yes because cinnies rock! :D

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Would you call this ugly????

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ny122209_1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/09cpm3l.jpg

It IS a personal preference - I've always preferred cinnamons.

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Oh my god I have cinnie envy, I perfer black pastels but if the cinnie looks like that I would so trade a lesser for that IMO if you have both to make combos with you would appeal to a larger clientel.

Robin you have the most amazing animals

Heh heh,

That's right Robin - just confuzzle me further with that hot cinny. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

Your lesser and the cinny are probably close value wise, but I don't see much point in having a cinny male a black pastel male. If it were a female sure, but for me at least, I would not add another single codom male to my collection when I already have something similar.

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Actually over here the 151g lesser is worth at least half again what the 250g cinny is.

I am a bit male heavy as it is but if it had been an outstanding example I would have been tempted. At the moment I can't get a picture of it though as the gentleman is in Spain ( on his hols I suspect ) - i'd also be tempted if it were female.

I'll hold off on it until I can see what it looks like I think either way and if the lesser sells in the mean time so be it.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Would you call this ugly????

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ny122209_1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/09cpm3l.jpg

It IS a personal preference - I've always preferred cinnamons.

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Wow, hot cinny! Did you produce it? I want one!!!

No, I didn't produce him. Tim Bailey produced him.

Sent from my HTC Incredible using Tapatalk.

I'd say hold out for either a female cinny or a male cinny pewter (or other combo). But wow. That is a CRAZY cinnamon! So now I don't know...

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Would you call this ugly????

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if only everyone had a hawt cinny. i find a hawt black pastel to be hawter than a hawt cinny.

some believe cinnys are the same as black pastels but a HQ black pastel would be really dark black and gold. a HQ cinny should be the color of cinnamon... (brownish and gold) :gj:

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Originally Posted by h00blah

if only everyone had a hawt cinny. i find a hawt black pastel to be hawter than a hawt cinny.

some believe cinnys are the same as black pastels but a HQ black pastel would be really dark black and gold. a HQ cinny should be the color of cinnamon... (brownish and gold) :gj:

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Is this based on fact or opinion? Just wondering because I personally find cinnamons to be more attractive (again a personal opinion) but, are cinnamons, beyond a reasonable doubt, considered to be more brown and less black than black pastels? At what point is a cinnamon considered to be black pastel in appearance and vice versa?

I also always saw my cinnamon (and other cinnamons as well as black pastels) as having a more 'warm/reddish' tone than a 'golden' tone compared to normals. Is this also just me?

To the OP, I don't think there is any detriment to having one of each, perhaps for any given season one of the males doesn't make locks, this way you have another male of a very similar morph to get the combos you want. I find cinnamons to have 'cleaner' markings, but there are unique and beautiful qualities in both versions of the morph.

I have a big male cinny, and just bought a 450g male black pastel to go with my black pastel female this year. I will likely sell the cinny. I do like the one pictured, but anything less than the best examples fall short of the black pastels in my eyes. If I was overrun with breedable female morphs I may have both, but sadly I am not.

I jus bought a outstanding cinny female from Tim Johnson of royal morphz from las vegas
outstanding customer service and the snake i got well i was just speechless here is the link to whats available 250.00 shipped for a female cinny you cant beat it i purchased the female cinny on page 2 sold to greg :) ( super pastel x cinny= sterling) (black pastel x super pastel= Silver streak) i would say cinny and black pastel are both worth having plus ull make pewters with (black pastel x cinny= pewter)
but check out what tim has :)

http://royalmorphz.com/available.php

Hi,

I agree he is a great guy. :D :gj:

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Originally Posted by xloyal

I jus bought a outstanding cinny female from Tim Johnson of royal morphz from las vegas
outstanding customer service and the snake i got well i was just speechless here is the link to whats available 250.00 shipped for a female cinny you cant beat it i purchased the female cinny on page 2 sold to greg :) ( super pastel x cinny= sterling) (black pastel x super pastel= Silver streak) i would say cinny and black pastel are both worth having plus ull make pewters with (black pastel x cinny= pewter)
but check out what tim has :)

http://royalmorphz.com/available.php

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But you seem to have got a little confused somewhere down the line - black pastel is a morph in it's own right nothing to do with the morph we call pastels. :cool:

Some people still call cinnys cinammon pastels as well - the naming of ball python morphs is a perfect example of how to confuse the bejeebus out of everyone. :rolleyes:

So;

super pastel x cinny = pastels and pewters

black pastel x super pastel = pastels and black pewters

black pastel x cinny = normals, black pastels, cinnys and 8balls

And if one of the above 8ball supers was bred to a normal it would produce half the clutch as black pastels and the other half as cinnys.


dr del

Stupid question, but I really don't know the answer. Would a Black Pastel x Het Red Axanthic still make a Gargoyle or is it only the Cinny x Het Red that does that?

Hi,

I think it's called a black gargoyle to differentiate it from the version made with he cinny.


dr del

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Originally Posted by sungmina

Is this based on fact or opinion? Just wondering because I personally find cinnamons to be more attractive (again a personal opinion) but, are cinnamons, beyond a reasonable doubt, considered to be more brown and less black than black pastels? At what point is a cinnamon considered to be black pastel in appearance and vice versa?

I also always saw my cinnamon (and other cinnamons as well as black pastels) as having a more 'warm/reddish' tone than a 'golden' tone compared to normals. Is this also just me?

To the OP, I don't think there is any detriment to having one of each, perhaps for any given season one of the males doesn't make locks, this way you have another male of a very similar morph to get the combos you want. I find cinnamons to have 'cleaner' markings, but there are unique and beautiful qualities in both versions of the morph.

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well just look at the names.. BLACK pastels should be a combination of dark BLACK and gold - CINNAMON is more a focus on how light the black is (almost brown.. like cinnamon) mixed with the gold..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h00blah

well just look at the names.. BLACK pastels should be a combination of dark BLACK and gold - CINNAMON is more a focus on how light the black is (almost brown.. like cinnamon) mixed with the gold..

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Is it fact that black pastels are named such because they have black markings and cinnamons are named such because they have brown markings? Because to me, both have *dark* markings on a lighter/warm base. Does anyone know the answer to this for sure or is the above statement an assumption?

Does that mean BANANAS are yellow? And ORANGE dreams are orange?

In my limited experience, neither of these morphs are 'golden' and on the Graziani Reptils website it states:

"One of the males that I picked had an odd cinnamon color and he was not as bright as the rest. His dorsal pattern was normal... After a closer look at him we realized that he contained no yellow pigment. At that time we were calling him a Cinnamon ball python."

This implies that the morph was indeed named after the base color and not the dorsal color which was described as 'normal' which I assume ranges from dark brown to black; nor was the original animal 'golden' in any way.

I don't understand how people can believe that one is UGLY and one is GORGEOUS. They are honestly VERY similar in appearance, and such opinions are based on just that, opinion.

In a hypothetical situation where one were to cross a black pastel to a cinny, would one look at the hatchlings and determine without a doubt which animals were black pastel and which were cinny and confidently label and sell them as such?

Would one be able to look at them be say... ALL the 'ugly' ones were cinnies and ALL the good looking ones were black pastels or vice versa? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Or all the 'black' ones black pastel and all the brown ones cinny?

Just some questions to think about...

To the OP, my opinion stands, there are benefits to having both variations if you can accommodate having an extra male.

Sorry for going off topic at all!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sungmina

In my limited experience, neither of these morphs are 'golden' and on the Graziani Reptils website it states:

"One of the males that I picked had an odd cinnamon color and he was not as bright as the rest. His dorsal pattern was normal... After a closer look at him we realized that he contained no yellow pigment. At that time we were calling him a Cinnamon ball python."

This implies that the morph was indeed named after the base color and not the dorsal color which was described as 'normal' which I assume ranges from dark brown to black; nor was the original animal 'golden' in any way.

I don't understand how people can believe that one is UGLY and one is GORGEOUS. They are honestly VERY similar in appearance, and such opinions are based on just that, opinion.

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i specifically said "i find" so yes.. it is my opinion... i think both are nice looking, but i guess you require people to start with "IMO".. lol i take everything most people say as opinion unless a person specifically asks "whats better - this or that?" or "what is a HQ this?"..

also, i said a HQ black pastel should focus on the dark BLACK and the gold... (IMO...)...
NERD's black pastel page: "While extremely similar to the Cinnamon trait, Black Pastels are a separate lineage with the same manner of co-dominant inheritance. Black Pastels are high contrast animals, with distinct black background coloration & gold or rust colored patterning."

as far as the cinnys go, yeah i guess i mispoke :bow::rolleyes:. they ARE more reddish.

Personally, I think that black pastels and cinnamons look quite different...
For one thing, blacks usually have the squiggly black lines on the sides around where the 'alien heads' should be. Plus, the heads of each morph look quite distinct. There are some animals that look like they could go either way, but those are simply poor examples of their morph.

Yesterday, I received a Cinnamon female from The Snake Keeper. It was $250 shipped. Dan was great and helpfull & very polite and keeps good records on all the snakes. She arrived at 118 grams and in perfect health. He has Cinnamons and Black Pastels for $200 each. I also purchased a Pastel het Clown female and it was great also. I will be purchasing alot more from them.:taz:

Hmmm not sure what the previous post had to do with the current debate, but alright. Congrats. :)

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Originally Posted by bkelley02

Stupid question, but I really don't know the answer. Would a Black Pastel x Het Red Axanthic still make a Gargoyle or is it only the Cinny x Het Red that does that?

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Actually they are called Onyx or Black Onyx It was first produced by Heather Wong of Heather's Herps.

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"Would you call this ugly????"

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I would have to say yes.
A mentioned, I just plum don't like the cinny gene.
No offense to what is clearly a fan favorite.
I have pewters and sterlings (and various crosses) of both cinnies and black pastels in my collection, and the is the closest a cinny comes to being in my collection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I agree he is a great guy. :D :gj:



But you seem to have got a little confused somewhere down the line - black pastel is a morph in it's own right nothing to do with the morph we call pastels. :cool:

Some people still call cinnys cinammon pastels as well - the naming of ball python morphs is a perfect example of how to confuse the bejeebus out of everyone. :rolleyes:

So;

super pastel x cinny = pastels and pewters

black pastel x super pastel = pastels and black pewters

black pastel x cinny = normals, black pastels, cinnys and 8balls

And if one of the above 8ball supers was bred to a normal it would produce half the clutch as black pastels and the other half as cinnys.


dr del

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Thanks for the correction and the names need a little revision lol in the BP market...

Also Tim gets thumbs up from me...