Micro-chipping BP

A question for the other breeders out there....
I was thinking of micro-chipping my hets and high end morphs to keep better track of them.
Does anyone have any ideas on the matter?

I'll be doing all of mine next year. You can not track them or anything with it, it is just for identification purposes. For example, if your snakes are to get stolen, you can only prove they are yours, not find out where they are.

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

A question for the other breeders out there....
I was thinking of micro-chipping my hets and high end morphs to keep better track of them.
Does anyone have any ideas on the matter?

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Here's another scenario.....

A good friend of mine just sold some one a snake....
The guy called him up 3 days later and said the snake died.
The snake he brought back to him was a different snake!
Micro-chipping would have eliminated a lot of confusion and B/S!

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

Here's another scenario.....

A good friend of mine just sold some one a snake....
The guy called him up 3 days later and said the snake died.
The snake he brought back to him was a different snake!
Micro-chipping would have eliminated a lot of confusion and B/S!

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So would a simple photo ID with the snake porchase...A lot easier IMO.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

So would a simple photo ID with the snake porchase...A lot easier IMO.

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Photo ID is unreliable at best, (and not legally binding) even if the animal is still alive.
Once the snake dies and starts to deteriorate, photo ID is pretty much irrelevant.
Even a snake that's been necropsied, or frozen can be verified with a simple chip reader.
And...
I won't even consider buying an adult het based on a hatchling photo ID, unless I personally know the breeder.
Plus...
It's a foolproof way track hets even when "helpers"/employees mix up snakes.

I was also thinking on this subject a few years back. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=103844 This is the link for the conversation. It is a good idea and I like it but I have not done it yet.

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

Photo ID is unreliable at best, (and not legally binding) even if the animal is still alive.
Once the snake dies and starts to deteriorate, photo ID is pretty much irrelevant.
Even a snake that's been necropsied, or frozen can be verified with a simple chip reader.

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This is completely incorrect. A snakes pattern is just like a fingerprint. It never changes. I have a photo of every snake I have ever purchased and produced. I have used these photos numerous times to id snakes that I sold 3 or 4 years ago, and also to id snakes that got mis labeled in tubs. I am no lawyer, but I am pretty sure that a photo of the animal would definitely be admissable in a legal trial, as it does positively identify the snake.

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

And...
I won't even consider buying an adult het based on a hatchling photo ID, unless I personally know the breeder.
Plus...
It's a foolproof way track hets even when "helpers"/employees mix up snakes.

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I would never do such a thing, but many liars have been exposed over the last 10 years for selling fake hets. I have about 30 normals hatched out already this year. I can put a microchip in every one of them and sell them to you as Het Clowns, Pieds, Caramels, Genetic stripes and Hypos. However, that microchip doesn't make them heterozygous. I then leave town with my pocketfull of your money, and am never seen again. What does that chip do for you then? Buy hets from reputable breeders, and you shouldn't have to worry.

I've considered chipping my morphs out of paranoia, but I'd like to be able to have some kind of chip that lets me ID my hets quickly. You know, in the event that I didn't take photos, and I mix them up in the tubs or something.... but the only chipping I'm familiar with is Home Again, and it's a.) pricey and b.) not really for me to use at home for IDing, but for animals that are found by local rescues and vets.

....or COULD I use it at home? Can I buy their little chip-reader myself, and get useful information (ie. ID numbers) out of it, without calling up Home Again every time?

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

A question for the other breeders out there....
I was thinking of micro-chipping my hets and high end morphs to keep better track of them.
Does anyone have any ideas on the matter?

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it could work very well and a single excel spreadsheet will keep track of everything, however the scanners are expensive. but, so is mixing up 10k worth of hets. i've used the scanners at a previous job tracking micro chipped fish stocked in a area lake.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

it could work very well and a single excel spreadsheet will keep track of everything, however the scanners are expensive. but, so is mixing up 10k worth of hets. i've used the scanners at a previous job tracking micro chipped fish stocked in a area lake.

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Oh, neat. That's exactly what I'd like to do. Why kind of chips and scanners (ie. what brand), and where did you get them from, do you remember?

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I would never do such a thing, but many liars have been exposed over the last 10 years for selling fake hets. I have about 30 normals hatched out already this year. I can put a microchip in every one of them and sell them to you as Het Clowns, Pieds, Caramels, Genetic stripes and Hypos. However, that microchip doesn't make them heterozygous. I then leave town with my pocketfull of your money, and am never seen again. What does that chip do for you then? Buy hets from reputable breeders, and you shouldn't have to worry.

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I agree completely. I bought several het pieds from many sources (I wanted genetic diversity) back when the hatchling females cost $2,000 to $3,000. Only 2 of those females were micro-chipped, and one of those 2 was a fake het from a scammer. The microchip was just part of his scheme to instill a false sense of confidence. Photo ID of hatchlings work perfectly fine for the life of the snake.
- Paul

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

it could work very well and a single excel spreadsheet will keep track of everything, however the scanners are expensive. but, so is mixing up 10k worth of hets. i've used the scanners at a previous job tracking micro chipped fish stocked in a area lake.

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I believe that the avian (bird) chips would be small enough and work well.
The question is.....
Where would you put one?

My thoughts are under the skin, along side the spine, just forward of the the cloaca. Any opinions?

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Originally Posted by PiedPeddler

I agree completely. I bought several het pieds from many sources (I wanted genetic diversity) back when the hatchling females cost $2,000 to $3,000. Only 2 of those females were micro-chipped, and one of those 2 was a fake het from a scammer. The microchip was just part of his scheme to instill a false sense of confidence. Photo ID of hatchlings work perfectly fine for the life of the snake.
- Paul

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Was it an out and out scam, or a "percentage" het that never proved out?

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Oh, neat. That's exactly what I'd like to do. Why kind of chips and scanners (ie. what brand), and where did you get them from, do you remember?

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This is the scanner I'm planning on buying.
It seems to be the most comprehensive scanner you can buy for under $500.

http://www.microchipidsystems.com/cg...by%20HomeAgain

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

Was it an out and out scam, or a "percentage" het that never proved out?

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All-out scam. If I recall correctly, one person sunk over $10K on a group of albino pied double-hets. This was happening in 2003-2004 and to my knowledge, nothing ever proved out. If you're interested you can search threads about Carolina Reptile Exchange on faunaclassifieds BOI. Lots of people lost lots of money. Will a photo ID stand up in court? Will a microchip ID stand up in court? I think in order to find out, you have to get the seller into court...
- Paul

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

I believe that the avian (bird) chips would be small enough and work well.
The question is.....
Where would you put one?

My thoughts are under the skin, along side the spine, just forward of the the cloaca. Any opinions?

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I have one microchipped animal, and his is located an inch forward of the cloaca (less than an inch when he was little, I guess), but down low, just above the line where the belly turns white.

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Originally Posted by PiedPeddler

All-out scam. If I recall correctly, one person sunk over $10K on a group of albino pied double-hets. This was happening in 2003-2004 and to my knowledge, nothing ever proved out. If you're interested you can search threads about Carolina Reptile Exchange on faunaclassifieds BOI. Lots of people lost lots of money. Will a photo ID stand up in court? Will a microchip ID stand up in court? I think in order to find out, you have to get the seller into court...
- Paul

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That's why I hate working with other peoples hets!
I had a buddy breed what was advertised as a 66% het to vis (albinos) 2 years in a row and produce nothing but normal (looking) offspring.

The guy he sold her too (as a big normal) for $100 produced visible albino's the following year.

That's why I hate working with other peoples hets!

I know that there are dirtbags out there who are unscrupulous, but there are also people (present company excluded) who simply don't understand recessive genetics, that's why I'm chipping my snakes.

If I sell a chipped animal as a 100% het, I will gladly take an adult animal back for a full refund plus 1/2 food cost as long as the animal is healthy.

A photo ID is like a fingerprint, with one small exception...
Court systems universally sanction and recognize fingerprint experts.
Photo ID is considered "subjective" evidence, and therefore open to the interpretation of the court.

Since I have a fairly low level of confidence that anyone would get a judge or jury with any experience in snake identification, I'd prefer going into court with a documented RFID serial number.

Here's another problem with photo ID.
Just recently a good friend sold someone a high end breeder.
3 days after the sale, the buyer showed up with a freezer burned snake that wasn't even close to the weight of the snake sold, and demanded a refund for his dead snake!
The buyer has been involved in some shady deals in the past, and is now suing my buddy in small claims court.
Try making a photo ID on a frozen animal that may have been dead for even 24 hours before it was frozen.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

This is completely incorrect. A snakes pattern is just like a fingerprint. It never changes. I have a photo of every snake I have ever purchased and produced. I have used these photos numerous times to id snakes that I sold 3 or 4 years ago, and also to id snakes that got mis labeled in tubs. I am no lawyer, but I am pretty sure that a photo of the animal would definitely be admissable in a legal trial, as it does positively identify the snake.

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Admissible yes.... binding no!
Photos are considered subjective, not forensic evidence.

I know of another local breeder who had a substantial portion of his collection stolen.
Later that year he saw some of his snakes with very unique markings at a reptile show on a vendors table.
Photos of the snakes taken at the show, and photo id pictures were submitted to the police.
One snake in particular (a pied) had a clearly visible mark that resembled a cartoon character, mid-body, in a patch of clean white.

A CT judge determined the photos to be circumstantial, and inconclusive!
He was SPECIFICALLY asked if the animals had tattoos or id chips.
Because they had neither, a search warrant was never issued, and my buddy is out $20,000+ in snakes.

So, to get back to the original topic;
Microchipping a ball python is not only expensive, but 100% useless.
A dog, a cat, an expensive bird, sure.
These are all animals that can run/fly away.
Ball pythons can do no such thing.
They also cannot prove 'hetness'.
Theft you say?
Like 99% of ball python breeders that I know, they have never taken a single animal to the vet nor will during that snakes life.
No need to if you keep them right.
The thief just needs to avoid a vet or someone with a scanning device.
Take a good picture. Keep it on file.
Don't waste your time and money.

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Originally Posted by mykee

So, to get back to the original topic;
Microchipping a ball python is not only expensive, but 100% useless.

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I've owned a large scale internet retail website, so maybe I've just seen more of the scams that people are trying to pull.

God help you if you ship anything and accept PayPal!

Photo ID's are too easily doctored, and meaningless in every legal sense of the word. They simply do not hold up in court.

In recent months, I've talked to too many breeders who have had customers claim they received dead animals, or animals that died shortly after receipt.
The other big scam is when people try to say they were shipped males instead of females.

As for expensive?
Chips retail for $7 and any breeder can pick them up in bulk for $3-$4 apiece.
What does it cost to have you're photo IDs notarized?

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

What does it cost to have you're photo IDs notarized?

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free at most banks if you have a account

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

A question for the other breeders out there....
I was thinking of micro-chipping my hets and high end morphs to keep better track of them.
Does anyone have any ideas on the matter?

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Here is your original post. It sounds to me like you wanted view points from people. Although many points have been given, you continue to argue that the microchip is the only way to go. It seems that your mind was made up before you asked for others opinions. So, I say, go for it. It surely won't hurt anything, but I don't think it will help much either. There are ways to prove that an animal that died shortly after delivery is the one you sent. Sexing the animal right before shipping is an excellent practice. Lastly, you continue to bring up legal matters, and courtroooms, yet in the 10 years we have been in the hobby, I have only ever heard of two actual cases over reptiles and money. I just don't think many events are actually ever brought to court.

Just my opinion,

Actually, my boyfriend and I have thought about this as well. We know of a theft here in town with a local breeder losing all of his morphs. While microchipping cannot be used to locate them, you can register with any of the companies to prove ownership.

Here is another scenerio for you, what if there is a natural disaster and your snakes are able to escape. Having your snakes microchipped will help you to be able to identify them. Plus, here in FL, they are trying to get that microchipping is mandatory for all ROC reptiles (ok, so Balls are not on that list, but still, you get the point).

Even the SPCA are now microchipping all animals that are adopted out regardless of what they are.

Bottom line, if its something that you want to do for your own peace of mind, then do it. They are your snakes and your opinion is the only one that matters in that regard. ;)

All this talk about theft, home invasion, court, etc.
Time to find some new friends.
As for microchipping a snake, about as useful as a tattoo behind their ear. Hey wait a minute, balls don't....
As Muddoc said; it's your money, waste it anyway you want.

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Originally Posted by mykee

All this talk about theft, home invasion, court, etc.
Time to find some new friends.
As for microchipping a snake, about as useful as a tattoo behind their ear. Hey wait a minute, balls don't....
As Muddoc said; it's your money, waste it anyway you want.

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I'm beginning to see the trend...
Thanks for all the friendly help!

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Originally Posted by asixtwo

A question for the other breeders out there....
I was thinking of micro-chipping my hets and high end morphs to keep better track of them.
Does anyone have any ideas on the matter?

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Back when I spent a bunch of $$ I bought a scanner and a case of the chips in the needles. I know how to do it but the fear of infection or slipping it in wrong. It was better to wait until the animals was older, so I waited. Looking back on the grand I spent I would have been better off getting surveillance cameras for security or a better camera to take their pics and file them.

For us, I still have the stuff and would sell it all cheap.

I'm going to bump this thread, because I want to bring something else up that relates to the OP. I did competitive showjumping for 15 years and dealt with horses that were worth over $1 million. Most of the horses had insurance. My saddle has a GPS tracking device/microchip in it to prevent theft etc. While I completely understand the OP's concern etc, what I am curious about is if there is insurance you can buy for your snakes ... and considering how much people change their stock of snakes how it would work in terms of updating the policy to keep up with the collection of the policy holder.
As for the scams that buyers/sellers have- I am a highly experienced ebay seller and there will always be people trying to scam you-microchips or no microchips... while these extra precautions may lessen the chance of someone trying to scam you- in the end, when it comes to a het- it is going to be your word against theirs...

I own 3 balls that are micro chipped. One pair of het pieds and one unknown het. The unknown het was sold to me for the price of a normal because the breeder lost his software and had no idea what she was het for. I bought 3 of them. They all looked different, but I only could feel the chip on the one so only time will tell. The breeder is the one who runs the show, so I don't think he would lie. If he did I know where to find him. LOL:)

I agree that the chip does not mean a thing unless from a reputable breeder. I would love to micro chip my snakes because I am very anal with records. I always like proof.

If anyone could chip in with the equipment they use and where to buy it would be great!!!!