Unexpected Eggs

Hi guys. This is my first post and I want to say hi before telling my story. I am 46 and I have had the same BP since I was 21 and in college. Her name is Eptius and I have NEVER had her near another BP or tried to breed her. I have had her in several types of different cages over the years, but I recently put her in a critter cage with a plastic hide rock after my family moved to a new home.

My mom had been fighting cancer since last year so I had been very busy with trips to NW Indiana all Spring. I hadnt been able to pay Epty much attention. All I knew was that she wasnt eating and had 2 sheds very close together. I also didnt see much of her because she was spending a lot of time in her hide rock. My wife kept telling me that she thought something was wrong with Epty, but I just thought she wasnt hungry.

My mom passed during June and I didnt see Epty until well after the funeral (about 1.5 weeks). One Saturday, I lifted the rock off her to show her to a friend. Words cannot describe the shock I felt when I saw her coiled around a clutch of eggs.

I scrambled and did some fast research. I learned about parthenogenesis and ordered an incubator. I decided to incubate them myself because I really wanted Epty to eat again. Now let me just say at this point that I really had no idea what I was doing. I started with a clutch of 6 eggs, but 2 dried up and rotted. I kept the temp at about 89-90, but I had a problem with the humidity for a weekend while I was out of town.

On 08/19/10, the first one started to come out. Number 3 came out last night, but #4 appears to have died in the egg. It was fully formed, but for some reason it died. #1 and #3 appear to be perfectly normal. In fact, #3 snapped at me twice tonight.

The one that I dont understand is #2 because she appears to have been born with a birth defect of the eyes. The eye covers are HUGE and my kids have affectionatly named her Bugsy.

What exactly is wrong with her eyes and can she survive? Should I take her to a vet? Also, what are the odds of Epty doing this again next year? :confused: Thanks in advance.

Here are some pics of my journey.

EPTIUS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS004.jpg

THE INCUBATOR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS006.jpg

THE EGGS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS009.jpg

THE BABIES
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES001.jpg

#1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES003.jpg

#2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS020.jpg

#3
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES002.jpg

wow idk wat to do about that but i just had to say thats an amazing story and that Bugsy doesnt look good but idk im not very educated on this stuff yet

Can you take a better pic of those eye's I've never seen that before.

The one with the eye problem is most likely blind. And you say she has never been with a male?

:O:confused::confused: i really dont know wat happened here with her having eggs

btw #3 looks amazing ill buy him lol

So wait you have had the same BP for 25 years and you've NEVER once had another BP in contact with her, and some how had viable eggs!?! :confused: Does #3 have kinks in its neck or is it just the picture? I personally would put #2 down, unless your sure it is in no pain and can live a quailty life.

whatever happened its a blessing and congrats!

with bugsy, better have a vet see it.

what part of sw ohio you live in i am from cincinnati.if you need one of them off you hands let me know. id proply put blindy down jmo

Congrats on the babies! Interesting story!

I've heard about someone locally who experienced parthenogenesis in his snake a couple years ago, but I was skeptical. I know it can happen but it's just so unreal. Very cool story. Good luck with your babies.

I guess she REALLY wanted to have some babies! :P And they're gorgeous. I especially like the pattern on #3. Very pretty!

As for the eyes on #2...I've never seen anything like that. I'd probably cull the animal, but if I was unsure, I would definitely take it to a vet who has good knowledge and experience with snakes. If your kids have already named it, y'all may be too attached to cull it yourself and a vet's diagnosis could either set your minds at ease that the snake could live a normal life, or he could help euthanize the animal for you. Good luck with it!!

Just a quick note for everyone....offers to buy or adopt the animals should be made IN PRIVATE. Thanks. :)

Thats correct. In all these years Eptius has NEVER been in contact with another snake. This came as a complete suprise. I am not a breeder and have never even tried to breed her. Hell, I didnt even know another snake owner until 2 days ago when a lady in my office told me that she and her husband have had a BP for 10 years.

From what I have read, the babies are genetic clones of Epty since she used her own DNA to fertilize her own eggs. However, they do not have the same pattern. Bugsy is also the biggest of the 3. Bugsy is pretty active and I really cant tell if she is in pain or not. I do plan to have a vet see her soon.

Some one asked about kinks in #3's neck. I dont know what kinks are, but she looks pretty normal to me. She was the last one to hatch and I thought she was pretty mellow, until she tried to bite me last night. My kids have now named her Cleo.

I am going to offer Cleo a dead pinky tonight to see if she eats it. I've tried to to feed #1 twice, but she hasnt eaten yet.

Should I offer them live baby mice or stick with pre killed frozen pinkies? Thanks.

It's rare for a hatchling to take f/t as their first meal. It'd offer live.

BTW, My condolences in the loss of your mother.

Sent from my HTC Incredible using Tapatalk.

Very weird eyedefect there, have never seen anything like that, at all.

Now on with the pathogenesis, you'd expect the babies to look like mom.
All babies should be females. But the pattern is very different, and it should be like moms..

questions questions. :p

Good luck raising the babies, but I'd put bugsy down as well.

Greets,

Yaron

Excellent story! I'm terribly sorry to hear about your mother. Maybe this was natures way of trying to cheer you up a little?

Did the babies shed yet? I would wait until after they shed to offer food.

I'd keep the blind one for myself, as long as he wasnt in any pain. Then again, Im a sucker for strange animals. I have a 2 and 3/4 legged cat hahaha Pretty babies though, congrats :)

I dont know what to say about the pattern differences. #1, who my kids have named Rocco, seems to have the same pattern as Eptius. But Bugsy and Cleo are both way off. Here is a better pic of Bugsy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS022.jpg

I wouldn't put Bugsy down unless she is in pain. There are lots of blind animals that leave nice lives.

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Originally Posted by lusciousdragon

I wouldn't put Bugsy down unless she is in pain. There are lots of blind animals that leave nice lives.

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THIS. If she ends up eating and being able to live without much assistance, why not keep such an awesome animal, and a blessing at that. This is something that has apparently given your kids joy and happiness out of something sad. :gj:

They all look good in their own way, and #3 is really hot for a normal. I'd keep all of them honestly. LOL

I currently have no plans to put Bugsy down. I am taking her to a vet this afternoon. If she can live without pain and can feed on her own, I dont see the point in putting her down. I still have to discuss if were are going to keep her with my daughters.

Thanks to those who sent their condolences.

I also suspected that Eptius may have done this to help take my mind off things. That snake has been with me through thick and thin and out lived 3 dogs.:)

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Originally Posted by santino34

I dont know what to say about the pattern differences. #1, who my kids have named Rocco, seems to have the same pattern as Eptius. But Bugsy and Cleo are both way off. Here is a better pic of Bugsy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../EPTIUS022.jpg

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Is it just me or do those eyes look like they may just have big scales over them. I'm thinking it just might shed out and have a normal eyeball underneath.

That's awesome. The reason that some didn't make it, and some have genetic deformities is probably because of how it happened. Since it is only asexual reproduction from the female, there is not a lot of genetic diversity, which allows fohttp://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?127721-Unexpected-Eggs/page3r more mutations.

WOW, that is crazy. sorry about ur mom. congrats on the eggs tho, guess ur snake really wanted u to be happy again. good luck with bugsy and keep us updated, this is a really interesting thread. i think u may also have the oldest Ball on here :gj:

Hi,

I know I have seen this before. I just can't find the thread about it. :mad:

The word glaucoma is bubbling in my noggin but also something about blocked tear ducts. :confused:

I don't think it needs to be euthanised though - I think a vet should be able to identify it and drain if needed and check to see if it is an infection or a structural defect.


dr del

you may want to contact someone cuz ive been looking and there really isnt much on this happening in pythons.

Oh good grief,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I know I have seen this before. I just can't find the thread about it. :mad:

The word glaucoma is bubbling in my noggin but also something about blocked tear ducts. :confused:

I don't think it needs to be euthanised though - I think a vet should be able to identify it and drain if needed and check to see if it is an infection or a structural defect.


dr del

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Turns out the reason I remember that thread was because I started it. :oops:

It was a response about seeing a similar picture in a Ralph Davis hatching record.

Clutch 16 on this page as the link in the thread is now obsolete.

So while I don't have any answers I can recommend you contact Ralph and ask him if he knows what caused it and how to fix it if possible.


dr del

It isnt necessary for the offspring to be genetic clones of the mother, in genetics there is something called crossing over where genes move between the two separated chromosomes. This happens after the first split. Also certain variables are going to be random and not genetically controlled to the extent others are. Still pretty amazing considering BPs arent known for parthenogenisis.

The snake is fairly old at this point and as such her eggs are likely suffering in the same way that they do in other animals, increasing the likelihood of deformities in offspring as well as remarkable processes like parthenogenisis. Unless, of course, she was bred prior to you getting her, in which case it's possible she's been storing semen or fertilized eggs. In any case this is still pretty fantastic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anatess

Is it just me or do those eyes look like they may just have big scales over them. I'm thinking it just might shed out and have a normal eyeball underneath.

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All snake eyes are covered in a scale, however this snake's scales seem to have grown to massive proportions. The scale itself is likely not going to shed off, however it's possible she may grow into them.

A blind BP isnt that bad considering that they have 2 other senses to hunt with (heat pits and the jacobson's organ).

Also the TC may want to get the snakes sexed. If any are male then there is a chance she had been carrying sperm/fertilized eggs. However if they got the snake when it was still a baby that's kinda thrown out the window.

gratz on the babies :) they are all very nice looking!! maybe these babies are the saviors of the ball python world ;)

Good news. I just got back from the vet. I had all 3 of the kids checked out. The vet believes that Bugsy has a fluid build up under her eye covers. So her eye covers are stretched out. The right eye was normal when she was born, but now it is almost as big as the left.

The vet believes that it is caused by clogged ducts or perhaps ducts that never formed. We are going to find out for sure tomorrow because thats when we are taking Bugsy back for surgery. The fluid will be drained and the vet will check the ducts.

Rocco and Cleo each weight .06 and Bugsy weighs .08. Cleo was also found to have a kink in her neck. Rocco is in perfect shape, but Cleo was everyone's favorite at the vet because of her color and pattern.

As for Eptius, she was full grown 25 years ago when I bought her from a guy in school who needed the money to pay his electric bill. I think I paid $40 for her. I have no idea how old she really is.

I told Eptius' story to the vet and she thought that perhaps she was storing sperm, but not for 25 years.:)

Cool story. Glad to hear the little one's are doing ok. My condolences to your family regarding the loss of your mother.

So, can you take the blood of a snake and see if it has something from another snake, or if it is all just from the mom??

well thats good news, the kinked neck shouldnt be a problem. a lot of snakes get kinks and grow up to be just fine. i hope bugsy gets to see his new family once the vet drains his eyes. good luck tomoro, let us know how it goes

I contacted Mr. Davis as dr del suggested. He said that his little guy died after a few days even after he drained the fluid, but that he also had other problems.

Also, mpkeelee suggested that I contact someone about the babies and how they came to be. However, I'm not exactly sure who to contact. I know that there is Herp Society in Cinci, so I guess I can start with them.

I hope your little ones do well and grow up to be happy, healthy adults. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by santino34

Also, mpkeelee suggested that I contact someone about the babies and how they came to be. However, I'm not exactly sure who to contact. I know that there is Herp Society in Cinci, so I guess I can start with them.

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ill do some lookin around and maybe i can find something in ur area. but maybe some vets know of some herpotologists

good luck on the surgery keep us posted

FYI, Bugsy came out of surgery yesterday and she is doing fine. The left eye cover sprung a leak on it's own and drained itself. The vet only had to drain the right one. She gave us a prescription for an ointment, but none of my local pharmacies had it so it had to be ordered. It should arrive tomorrow. The vet said that she should be OK and that she should not have anymore fluid build up. Here are some pics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...S/BUGSY004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...S/BUGSY003.jpg

I also contacted the Boonshoft Museum of Discovery in Dayton, OH about the entire virgin birth deal. I reported the incident to their Live Animal Collection Dept. Their animal curator is supposed to call me tomorrow. :)

BTW, how long will it take these guys to have their first shed?

So glad it went well dont forget to let us no what the animal curator has to say.:banana::banana::banana:

glad everything went well with bugsy. thats a fighter and a keeper!

Glad to hear things are going good :)

Have you got them sexed yet? If it was a partho I bet they are all females. You should contact Dr. Warren Booth and send him sheds from these animals along with your story. He would be really interested in this I'm sure. Contact Andrew Wyatt at USARK for his info.:)

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Originally Posted by Lesserbee

Have you got them sexed yet? If it was a partho I bet they are all females. You should contact Dr. Warren Booth and send him sheds from these animals along with your story. He would be really interested in this I'm sure. Contact Andrew Wyatt at USARK for his info.:)

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I think they'd all be male actually. They receive the genes from the mother, but only the ones required to make male offspring. Anywho, this stuff is truly amazing. Congratulations on your little miracles.

Cheers,
-Matt

Congrats--glad little Bugsy is ok. :)
she/he looks a lot better.

:O Wow, that's amazing. If she was already an adult when you got her, that would put her somewhere around 27+ years old...

:welcome: to BP.net. Please keep us updated on this...

By far one of the most interesting posts on here! Please keep us informed on all progress.. It can only be described as a miracle and a blessing! They are truly beautiful!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt K

I think they'd all be male actually. They receive the genes from the mother, but only the ones required to make male offspring. Anywho, this stuff is truly amazing. Congratulations on your little miracles.

Cheers,
-Matt

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I know it's a wiki page, but it looks like they'd all be female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

What an amazing story! I'm so happy that the little one is going to be ok with it's eyes! Those are some very cute babies! Congrats!

im glad bugsy is gonna be ok. after a shed she should be perfectly fine. im glad to hear someone took interest in your situation, i wanna know what they have to say.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I know it's a wiki page, but it looks like they'd all be female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

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I just read that page, interesting stuff. Do Ball Pythons follow XY or ZW sex determination? I'm not sure. But it still seems to me like they might be male. It would make sense for them to be male, as this kind of thing, adaptively speaking, happens as a result of a female not being in the presence of a male. Because no males are around for sexual reproduction, parthenogenesis becomes a necessity if reproduction is to happen at all. BUT, the logical result of creating offspring would be to create male offspring to compensate for the lack of available males, thus making sexual reproduction a viable option again. That's just my 2 cents, and I'm by no means 100% confident in my hypothesis, but I am reasonably confident, haha. Either way though, it really is amazing.

Cheers,
-Matt

get in touch with http://www.herpetologistsleague.org/en/pubs.php

if that link isn't right i posted it here in the top sections of forum pages for somebody wanting to talk to a herpetologist they are a world wide group so they could answer any questions on asexual reproduction in snakes allot better then any of us could