This is why you should NEVER feed live

:snake:Hi everyone, just a wee remind about why you shouldn't feed live rodents to your BPs. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2494/ratbite.jpg
I always pre-kill or do frozen thaw based on availability and this is exactly why. A bite like this could have really hurt my BP and may have allowed the rat to kill him if a live feeding was unsupervised. There are rare cased when live is ok, but by and large its a matter of snake safety. I'm glad to take one for Mr. Belt, and I'll be more glad when I'm cleaning this rat of the bottom of his tank.

The bite looks superficial to me. :confuzd:

BP.net will always advocate that each owner feeds what works best for them.

For me and my crew of 50 ball pythons, live it is, and has always been. With over 13K feedings under my belt with less than 10 minor insignificant scratches, I'd say that the risk of feeding live is negligible when done properly.

I feed in the enclosures, the snakes hunt from their hides, which provides protection to the bodies, I feed calm, well fed and hydrated rodents that aren't in panic mode - I never EVER stun my prey.

I also won't tell people that they have to feed live, just because that's what I believe is best for my colony. :):sweeet:

Tongs bro. :gj:

You are aware that many large breeders will feed live rodents to hundreds of snakes a week, right? I feed a couple of my picky snakes live rats and have for years without one incident. I'm pretty sure that most snakes in the wild eat live prey as well.

Sure, accidents do happen, but they can with F/T prey as well. People will fail to thaw out the rodent or over cook it which will lead to a whole different set of problems for the snake.

As with any type of feeding, it's the responsibility of the owner to feed their animals correctly.

I understand where you are coming from as I have been bitten by a rat before as well. So have both of my older kids. But, I do not think that it is a reason to "Never" feed live. I feed all of my snakes live and supervise all feedings. I know there is the chance that the snake may get a bite, but try to be ready with my tongs to avoid that happening. My feelings are that in the wild, they eat live prey and believe that live rats bring out a better feeding response in my snakes. To each their own though and I respect your opinion.

I have fed live and f/t. It all depends on the snake and what they will eat for me. I have never had any live feeding mishaps. I am always standing by supervising in case anything should ever go wrong.

Heh. I was thinking of offering a lived weaned rat to my mouse-only 2007 female, to see if I couldn't get her to at least try rats. (Just try 'em! Maybe you'll like 'em!) But looking at your hand, I admit now I'm having some second thoughts...

Ouch! :( I've been bitten by a rat too, and it really does hurt! But that being said, I feed all of my BPs live (both rats and mice) and haven't ever witnessed a snake getting bitten... like Rabernet, I feed in the enclosures and they hunt from their hides, so I think the risk is fairly minimal. Hey, they survive just fine eating live prey in the wild - right? To each his/her own, but I don't think rat bites are a reason to NEVER feed live.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm pretty sure that most snakes in the wild eat live prey as well.

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:rofl: LOL, I love this! No offense to anyone, but this statement tickled me...

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Heh. I was thinking of offering a lived weaned rat to my mouse-only 2007 female, to see if I couldn't get her to at least try rats. (Just try 'em! Maybe you'll like 'em!) But looking at your hand, I admit now I'm having some second thoughts...

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A weaned rat would be fine. Just keep an eye on them while together. You can also take a mouse or mouse bedding and scent the rat to smell like mice. That sometimes helps get them switched...

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

. Hey, they survive just fine eating live prey in the wild - right?

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In all fairness, in the wild the snake and rodent won't be confined together in a small area, either ! So while there are many reasons to either feed live, or not, this is not a valid one.

Feeding live carries risks, but doing it responsibly cuts down on the risks immensely. Like its been said, feeding in the snakes enclosure is safest. Its also
very, very important to stay nearby and supervise. If the snake doesn't grab and constrict the rodent immediately, the risk goes up. If the snake strikes and misses, the rodent will then
be on the alert, defensive and aggressive, since it cannot get away. If the snake is not interested in eating, the rodent might start gnawing on the snake.

In the wild the rodent that was "hit and miss" can run away. In the wild, a snake that isn't interested in eating, will not be forced to bunk with a hungry (and ticked off) rodent. In the wild, most reptiles
don't live to ripe old age. In captivity we try to make them last ;)

I've fed live, pre-killed and f/t. So far, no mishaps. If I feed live, I supervise until the rodent is dead. If not struck/eaten within a few minutes, I remove the rodent.

I've had a few that fed live and one thing I always had handy was a pencil, pen or something I could get in the rats mouth if it was in a position to bite on the snake while being constricted. I only had this happen once, and I'm not sure if it would have resulted in much damage to the snake but I could see the rat starting to bite and I felt better intervening.

We will agree to disagree here.

I am curious you are telling people not to feed live based on YOU getting bit? I am curious how much experience do you have with feeding live, how many snakes and for how long, and how many severe injuries have your snakes sustained?

Have been bitten by a rat and bled due to it? Yes it happened twice, in both cases they were adult females protecting their babies (they never had a opportunity to do it again :rolleyes:).

Have my snakes ever sustained any severe injuries due to live feeding (I feed a few hundred live prey each month)? NO

Here are a few tricks to live feeding

1# Pre-scent the room
2# Feed off animals that are well fed and hydrated
3# Don't stress the feeder prior to feeding
4# Do not feed over-sized prey (an adult BP does not need a large rat to thrive)

BP are very efficient hunter don't forget that.

The bottom line here is that people should be educated when it comes to feeding, they should know their options and the possible risks associated with those options (live and stunning are not as safe as you may think).

Than based on their knowledge THEY should chose what works for their snakes, is convenient and what makes THEM comfortable.

People should not chose something out of fear instigated by a "graphic" :rolleyes: picture of any kind with no history.

Again...another heated debate...over something STUPIDLY silly.

It seems snakes are better prepared to defend themselves than the standard human hand :rofl:

Several thousand live feedings and 3 minor bites(the snake not me) :P

I got bit by my dog so I decided not to feed it to my Ball Pythons.

Some ball pythons just won't accept live. Some won't even eat if you're watching. What's best and safest isn't always possible if you want to keep your ball python alive and healthy.

If you can switch them to FT, then FT is obviously safer. If you can't...well, then, you have to feed PK or live. No sense in fretting over it, nor any sense in misleading newbies to believe that ALL snakes will take FT, and they just need to be patient. I've seen excessive 'patience' kill snakes through starvation before.

I suppose I should have swapped the NEVER for a GOOD reason to not feed live. I think in my origional post I said there are soem reasons where you have to do live (I know how heated this debate can be and I questioned if I should even post this). Although I havent considered the mass breeder situation, I still know of breeders with tonnes of snakes that still do frozen. And yes while in a human hand the bite is superficial think about how much smaller parts of the snake are. If the same bite was done to the snakes head it could very well go deep enough to do serious damage.

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Originally Posted by TimmyG

I suppose I should have swapped the NEVER for a GOOD reason to not feed live. I think in my origional post I said there are soem reasons where you have to do live (I know how heated this debate can be and I questioned if I should even post this). Although I havent considered the mass breeder situation, I still know of breeders with tonnes of snakes that still do frozen. And yes while in a human hand the bite is superficial think about how much smaller parts of the snake are. If the same bite was done to the snakes head it could very well go deep enough to do serious damage.

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It could have...if the bite had happened on the eye or something. Keep in mind that human skin is very fragile compared to that of most animals, including scaled snakes. Their scales protect them from a LOT...way more than our own skin does. Does this mean a rat can't bite through? Of course not...but does it mean every time a rat's mouth gets on the snake's body that a huge chunk is going to be ripped out or internal organs damaged? Ummm, no. ;) Especially when we're talking about an appropriately sized prey item. Obviously a grown rat will be much more dangerous to a baby snake than it would be to a 4000g breeder.

There's nothing wrong with making the post....just be really, really careful when choosing such absolute words as "NEVER" or "ALWAYS". It's a good experience to share and I'm sure someone can learn from it and possibly use it to make their own choices about feeding live or f/t.

Of course there is SOME risk involved in feeding live....just as there is SOME risk in feeding f/t. Life IS risk...just by being alive, we risk injury and death. This isn't to say as keepers that we shouldn't take steps to mitigate those risks as best we can...but we can't claim ANY sort of absolute that will negate ALL risks in life. Risk factors and benefits have to be weighed carefully in every decision we make as keepers. The benefits of carefully feeding live, for many, clearly outweigh the slight risk of a rodent bite. The benefit of the convenience of leaving a live rat overnight with your picky snake does NOT outweigh the much higher risk of the rat making a snack out of an indifferent snake. ....That's my take on the whole debate. :)

Great picture...

I would use it for a thread/blog titled:

"This is why snakes are better pets than rodents!"

I guess I'll have to post a picture of a snake bite too. I have to say, my kids have been bit by the rats/hamsters plenty of times but only got bit by the snake once (it was their fault too - they put the snake on the couch and then jumped on the couch like it was a trampoline - snake, of course, thought it was the end of the world and went wham!).

:D

I can agree with the intentions of the OP. Some people and a lot of care sheets tell new snake owners to never feed live. Hearing it enough, you can feel that "it's just the way it's suppose to be."

For example, I frequent another forum where if you mention that you feed live, you get the exact opposite reaction. All their care sheets say never feed live, it doesn't have any benefit to the snake. That having been the first forum I frequented, I started believing that. After joining here, I have realized that there can be a vast difference in a feeding preference for a ball and something else like a corn snake.

Personally, I hope to never have to feed live. All my snakes are fed f/t for my convenience and it has seemed to work out well for them. Aspiring to become a breeder, I don't think I'll be able to keep up this practice.

I will stick to my guns though when people argue that it's more natural to feed live in captivity. I cannot agree with that statement, sorry. I have no problems with people feeding live though, I don't feel I do any better by feeding f/t. I'll also say that feeding f/t doesn't necessarily change their feeding response either.

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Originally Posted by anatess

Great picture...

I would use it for a thread/blog titled:

"This is why snakes are better pets than rodents!"

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I love my ratties and have been bitten by snakes way more times than by rats, mostly baby snakes but a few big girls have tagged me too.
I love my snakes and my rats, they are just completely different kinds of "pets"
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/SDC14882.jpg

^ Awsome idea, I have one pick of a snake bite where theres hardly one drop of blood

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Originally Posted by JLC

It could have...if the bite had happened on the eye or something. Keep in mind that human skin is very fragile compared to that of most animals, including scaled snakes. Their scales protect them from a LOT...way more than our own skin does.

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However, it might as well be butter when it comes to rodent teeth. A bite from a rat will cause just as much damage to a snake's skin as it will to ours. Their skin also tends to be much thinner than ours, and it doesn't have much of a subcutaneous fat layer, meaning a great chance for muscle, nerve or even bone damage. Keep in mind that rats can chew through concrete, and their teeth are sharpened like little daggers. They will sink just as deeply into a snake as they will into you--and they won't even notice the scales.

Scales are good against scratches and abrasions, but they don't do much against punctures--they're too thin.

What snakes do have going for them is an impressive immune system, and a high tolerance for that type of damage. The Python Hunter folks picked up a Burm in the Everglades after the cold snap that had had its skin and back muscles stripped off and damaged by black vultures. Put into a cage with warmth and water, the snake HEALED, and lived.
But not every snake will be that lucky, every time. These are pets--there is no sense in taking unecessary risks with them. It's up to us to determine which risks are necessary.

The main thing is to find what works for you and your snakes. Some cities have laws against feeding live animals to one another and so it might not be legal for you to feed live. Then again your snake might not eat F/T to save its life so feeding F/T might not be an option, it might a moral thing or an emotional thing. When making the decision to do or not do something ask yourself theses questions

1: am I providing to the best of my ability for my snake
2: am I making this decision because of my animals needs or my own reasons
3: how far am I willing to go to provide for my animals (i.e feeding live even if you don't "like " too)
4: am I trying to force my snake to change it's behavior to suit me and if so am I willing to change to suit my snakes needs..

What works for you might not work for me and my snakes..

I feed live, but supervise what goes on. I feed my bp full size mice and usually the mouse will take one sniff toward his direction and try to run. That's when he's taken from behind. :D:banana::snake:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The main thing is to find what works for you and your snakes. Some cities have laws against feeding live animals to one another and so it might not be legal for you to feed live. Then again your snake might not eat F/T to save its life so feeding F/T might not be an option, it might a moral thing or an emotional thing. When making the decision to do or not do something ask yourself theses questions

1: am I providing to the best of my ability for my snake
2: am I making this decision because of my animals needs or my own reasons
3: how far am I willing to go to provide for my animals (i.e feeding live even if you don't "like " too)
4: am I trying to force my snake to change it's behavior to suit me and if so am I willing to change to suit my snakes needs..

What works for you might not work for me and my snakes..

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I might be wrong, but I think it is illegal in most of England.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I have to say, my kids have been bit by the rats/hamsters plenty of times but only got bit by the snake once (it was their fault too - they put the snake on the couch and then jumped on the couch like it was a trampoline - snake, of course, thought it was the end of the world and went wham!).

:D

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Sorry to derail the thread, but that is hilarious.....::rofl: I used to do that with my cat when I was young, fortunately for me my cat was alot more forgiving than your snake!!!!:D


As for feeding it is what you feel comfortable with, and remember when a snake is constricting it's muscles are soo tight that it would have to be a pretty nasty rodent to get through their scales.