Concerned with my BP after assisted feed

After talking with the vet I preformed an assisted feed last night with my baby ball python. I've had her for about 4 months and up until last night she had only eaten once and was starting to loose weight. Last night I did an assist feed with a pinky, which she ate and kept down. Only thing is today she seems VERY lethargic. When I gave her fresh water today I picked her up and she didn't wrap around my hand like normal. She moved around and wasn't limp but she just wasn't her "normal" self. When I put her back in the cage she just layed where I put her, not really moving. Is this normal behavior for a BP after eating or something I need to be concerned with?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

How much does she weigh? And how much has she lost?

Have you double and triple checked all the husbandry with the caresheet to see if there are any possible issues?

The problem with assist feeding is it is quite stressful so, while you want it to be the last thing you try, you also don't want to wait too long.


dr del

To be honest I'm not sure of her exact weight, I say she was loosing weight based on appearance. Her skin was getting much more loose, etc. I actually got her as a gift so I'm not sure on her husbandry, so there may be issues, but I don't see what I can do now. Unfortunately the gift giver and I broke up (in a way that would not allow me to call her up and ask questions).

So I guess my question now is. What do I do now? Is it stress that is causing her to be so sluggish today? I just need help and guidance.

Pictures of snake and setup.


Also pinky is too small even for hatchlings. Depending on its size offer pre killed Hoppers-sm adults when assist feeding.

Here she is a few weeks ago:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/DSC04637.jpg

Here is the set up: http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/DSC04635.jpg

Even if the pinky was too small shouldn't she have eaten it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Here she is a few weeks ago:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/DSC04637.jpg

Here is the set up: http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/DSC04635.jpg

Even if the pinky was too small shouldn't she have eaten it?

---

She will eat anything when hungry enough. At her size offer Hopper mice pre killed when assist feeding every 3 days.

Right now the Cage is TOO BIG and is the reason shes not thriving. Drop down to a 10gallon or 6qt tub. Also ditch the stick on thermometer hydrometer readers. Go buy a digital one at walmarts for $12 and get a accurate measurement.


Be sure if you go to a 10 gallon tank get 2 identical hides. If you do the 6qt tub all you need is one hide and water bowl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

She will eat anything when hungry enough. At her size offer Hopper mice pre killed when assist feeding every 3 days.

Right now the Cage is TOO BIG and is the reason shes not thriving. Drop down to a 10gallon or 6qt tub. Also ditch the stick on thermometer hydrometer readers. Go buy a digital one at walmarts for $12 and get a accurate measurement.


Be sure if you go to a 10 gallon tank get 2 identical hides. If you do the 6qt tub all you need is one hide and water bowl.

---

<sigh> She was in a 10 gallon take for 4 months before I got this tank about 2 weeks ago when it was suggested I get her a larger tank. This snake is quickly becoming more work than she is worth :(

I forgot to add, the twig is gone, and I have new thermometers and hydrometers in the tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

<sigh> She was in a 10 gallon take for 4 months before I got this tank about 2 weeks ago when it was suggested I get her a larger tank. This snake is quickly becoming more work than she is worth :(

I forgot to add, the twig is gone, and I have new thermometers and hydrometers in the tank.

---

Im sure you were told bigger by petstore. Ignore them all together as they want $$$$ from you.


GO back to the 10 gallon and clutter it up A LOT. Wait few days for her to re adjust and assist feed her a hopper mouse pre killed.

Be sure the temps are measured by digital no analog like those stick on ones.

Ok, I'll move her back into the smaller cage, only problem is, its very difficult to have a warm and cool side. So when you say clutter it up, you mean set it up with multiple hides and a water dish (which is the very small dish in the bottom right of the pic, its the only thing that fits).

Thanks for the very quick help, I really appreciate it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Ok, I'll move her back into the smaller cage, only problem is, its very difficult to have a warm and cool side. So when you say clutter it up, you mean set it up with multiple hides and a water dish (which is the very small dish in the bottom right of the pic, its the only thing that fits).

Thanks for the very quick help, I really appreciate it.

---

Yes just add as much stuff to the cage as much as possible. you can use small deli cups if needed for water bowl.

10 gallon tanks is very easy to have cool and warm side when using under tank heater. If your using over head heating its harder but manageable.

If pre killed or f/t isn't working, throw a live mouse in after you change your set ups. It's more important to get the animal eating than worrying about whether it is pre killed or f/t.

Like the previous poster said:

10 gallon

You can put more than 2 hides in, mine has two small hides on the left of the tank in both corners, one in the bottom right corner, and the water dish is in the top right hand corner.

You can put fake plants in to help fill the space.

Just curious, what substrate are you using? It looks very grainy, almost like coarse sand. Could that also be contributing to the problem?

Ok, I'll move her tonight, but I'm still worried about how limp she is when I pick her up. Is this just part of her being stressed?

Why will cluttering up the tank help? As I said earlier, she was in this tank from day 1 and has always been a problem, with the exception of eating once.

I just watched a video of a BP eating a hopper, my snake isn't that big, would a fuzzy be a better option?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get them all out.

EDIT: The substrate is T-rex Sani-Chips. This a problem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkHerps

If pre killed or f/t isn't working, throw a live mouse in after you change your set ups. It's more important to get the animal eating than worrying about whether it is pre killed or f/t.

Like the previous poster said:

10 gallon

You can put more than 2 hides in, mine has two small hides on the left of the tank in both corners, one in the bottom right corner, and the water dish is in the top right hand corner.

You can put fake plants in to help fill the space.

---

When assist feeding you offer pre killed Once eating on its own offer live.

I never recommend f/t to a picky eater this young.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Ok, I'll move her tonight, but I'm still worried about how limp she is when I pick her up. Is this just part of her being stressed?

Why will cluttering up the tank help? As I said earlier, she was in this tank from day 1 and has always been a problem, with the exception of eating once.

I just watched a video of a BP eating a hopper, my snake isn't that big, would a fuzzy be a better option?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get them all out.

EDIT: The substrate is T-rex Sani-Chips. This a problem?

---

You need to be sure temps are proper as well. with a baby you want to aim for higher temps to help in digestion/growth.

Aim for 82 cool side and 92 warm side and 60% humidity.

The bedding your using is fine.

Clustering up the cage will make it look smaller and feel smaller to her while shes roaming.

Quote:

---

When assist feeding you offer pre killed Once eating on its own offer live.

---

That's why I said throw it in with the snake.

My baby ball didn't eat for two month when I got him even though I had everything set up properly, temps right, etc...the first time I put a small adult mouse in his house with him and left him alone, he ate it and has been doing good ever since.


You want to clutter the cage because ball pythons naturally live in small cramped rodent burrows, so they feel more comfortable in small confined areas rather than really roomy spaces.

Your snake is probably just weak from the stress of you assist feeding.

Thanks a lot, you've all been a huge help. I'm going to move her soon as I hit send.

When can/should I move her back to the bigger cage?

Also, size does concern me, a hopper seems so big for her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Thanks a lot, you've all been a huge help. I'm going to move her soon as I hit send.

When can/should I move her back to the bigger cage?

Also, size does concern me, a hopper seems so big for her.

---

Once she is much bigger, give her a bit.

Ball pythons can swallow 3x the size of their heads, so she'll be okay. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkHerps

That's why I said throw it in with the snake.

My baby ball didn't eat for two month when I got him even though I had everything set up properly, temps right, etc...the first time I put a small adult mouse in his house with him and left him alone, he ate it and has been doing good ever since.


You want to clutter the cage because ball pythons naturally live in small cramped rodent burrows, so they feel more comfortable in small confined areas rather than really roomy spaces.

Your snake is probably just weak from the stress of you assist feeding.

---

Not even close to accurate. The snake is weak due to mal nourishment from not eating. When a hatching goes more than a month no food they need to be assist fed, not pan it out if they eat or dont eat.

You will soon learn this when you get babies that hatch and dont eat for a month and you have to assist feed them. This snake needs to be set up properly and assist fed to get it to gain weight before letting it eat live

My snake was fine going over a month with no food, he wasn't weak at all. When I had to handle him after a meal because his jaws went down his throat he was extremely weak afterwards just from the stress of it all.

The OP'ssnake also wasn't weak just the day before, so thats why I was thinking stress.

We also don't really know how the OP went about trying to assist feed.

Yeah a lot of breeders start their new hatchlings off on small adult mice and skip right over hoppers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkHerps

Yeah a lot of breeders start their new hatchlings off on small adult mice and skip right over hoppers.

---

Can you name some of them. As a small adult is a HUGE meal for a hatchling thats under 150g.

Hoppers leave bulges in hatchlings on thier first meal, id hate to see small adults fed to them.



Not trying to bash you but making sure you prove what your saying as feeding too big to non established feeding babies can cause problem-some faster than anything.

I've seen it all over the forum, with many breeders on this forum saying they just start off on small adults. Small adult mice are really pretty small unless you're just getting jumbo sized mice.

The OP's snake is pretty small and if the snake wont take any hoppers, etc..in the future that aren't alive, they can try the smallest mouse they can find if nothing else works, since you don't want to be assist feeding forever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkHerps

I've seen it all over the forum, with many breeders on this forum saying they just start off on small adults. Small adult mice are really pretty small unless you're just getting jumbo sized mice.

---

Thats news to me. Sm adults in my rack at 15grams and thats pretty big for the average 50-60g hatchling

Here is her current set up. I thought it was 10 gallons, but perhaps its a bit smaller. I'll see what I can dig up for more clutter, but this is the best I have right now.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...3/DSC03227.jpg

So really? 3x, and a hopper would be safe?


BTW, I took that twig out after the pic, just wanted to put in in since everyone told me to take it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Here is her current set up. I thought it was 10 gallons, but perhaps its a bit smaller. I'll see what I can dig up for more clutter, but this is the best I have right now.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...3/DSC03227.jpg

So really? 3x, and a hopper would be safe?

---

Hopper is completely safe to feed her dont worry. The hide is too big, If you have small plastic ceral bowls cut them up and make hides for her. Also Cover 3 sides of the tank with something to make it darker and not see through.

I tape black or dark colored construction paper to the back and sides of my reptile tanks.

To make cheap hides you can also use small little tupper ware containers, thats how I make my humid hides. I cover the outside of the containers in duc tape so they are dark on the inside.

I think they told you to take out the stick because your snake might climb up it and fall off if the stick is too light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkHerps

I tape black or dark colored construction paper to the back and sides of my reptile tanks.

To make cheap hides you can use small little tupper ware containers, thats how I make my humid hides. I cover the outside of the containers in duc tape so they are dark on the inside.

---

BIG NO NO. That tape ever comes lose while your sleeping or not there and you have a major problem. Duct tape has enough glue on it to rip the skin/scales off the snake when it tries to come off.

assist feeding is very stress full for both parties. it a nice looiking rescued normal I hope she pull though for you . I also agree tape is a magor bad ideal I seen scales ripped off a snake cause it cam a little loose andthen the snake rubbed it. You can also make your current hide feel smaller by pressing it down ( or filling some ) with bedding. I love the sandi chips but I would use to many with my snakes. so Ican use it lol ( 4.0cb bag every time I cleaned would kill me )

It's still really open in the tank. Take a bunch of newspaper, ball it up and throw it in. While it may not look pretty, it will work wonders. Take it out a few pieces every time your snake eats. If he refuses the next week, put some more back in. It will make it feel much more secure, and s/he should be eating in no time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarahlovesmiike

It's still really open in the tank. Take a bunch of newspaper, ball it up and throw it in. While it may not look pretty, it will work wonders. Take it out a few pieces every time your snake eats. If he refuses the next week, put some more back in. It will make it feel much more secure, and s/he should be eating in no time.

---

Ok, done, and you're right, it isn't pretty lol. Since I just fed her last night, how long should I wait to feed her again? And if she doesn't eat at that time should I again assist feed since she has now eaten only twice in 4 months?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Ok, done, and you're right, it isn't pretty lol. Since I just fed her last night, how long should I wait to feed her again? And if she doesn't eat at that time should I again assist feed since she has now eaten only twice in 4 months?

---

Feed her every 3 days till she fills back out. First offer her a pre killed from tongs if no strike then assist feed it to her. Wail till this Saturday to offer food so she can adjust.

Here's an example of a really cluttered up 10 gallon:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l.../sunshine1.jpg

There are 2 hides, a big water dish, and lots of fake plants. You don't have to make it pretty but it is better if he has lots of nook and crannies to pass through from hide to hide. Bundled up newspapers and fake plants from the dollar store can be used. In this picture, the big log is heavy and does not move. Part of it goes over the water dish so that even while drinking, the bp has some kind of cover. It is important that anything heavy in the tank cannot topple over the snake when they crawl over/under/around it. They can push things around with amazing strength.

One side of the tank has an Under Tank Heater controlled by a thermostat. This maintains the belly heat under one hide at 90. There is also a low wattage ceramic heat lamp on a timer for this particular set-up that I used to raise the ambient temp to 80.

The entire back of the tank is covered by cork board. You can use any dark paper (magazine covers work). When using paper, tape it to the outside of the tank so that your tape is not inside where it can accidentally get stuck on the snake.

I didn't cover the sides with corkboard because I have plants criss-crossing the sides. Just wrap the magazine covers to the sides as well.

Humidity needs to be between 50 and 60% that's why that water bowl I used was that big so that with the heat lamp, a lot of water evaporate to provide the needed humidity.

This set-up should provide a better environment for your snake to thrive.

If this is too much trouble, I suggest to move your snake to a sterilite bin type of set-up. Your snake can probably fit in a shoe box size. Then you don't need anything much but the UTH with thermostat, paper towels or newspapers, and a water bowl, and maybe one small hide.

Good luck!

Thanks Rich, seriously.

If Rich didn't intervene you would have had a snake covered in duct tape with a belly too big to move and half eaten.

Just one more correction...

Please NEVER leave a mouse in with a stubborn eater (live that is). With how small your snake is a small adult mouse in the hide with your snake would be a tragedy.


Stick with Rich's advice :).

I didn't read all the way through this thread cause I'm a little buzzed up right now but I've noticed that with any snake, moving to a different enclosure can cause them not to eat for a bit. Also, you shouldn't hold your snake for a good 24-48hrs after you feed it.

Little balls tend to struggle with f/t. Starting them off with live and then gradually switching them over works best. I would toss a rat pup in and leave it alone for about an hour and if it doesnt take it, try again the next day. I have a mojave that finally after 8 months will take food from my hand. He would only eat in private after being with the prey for some time. Hopefully I didn't repeat anything but I just got home from the bar and my attention span is much shorter than usual:D

I would feed a live rat fuzzy or really small rat pup. Don't handle it or disturb it from now until the next feeding which should be in 5 days! Put the rat near the tank in a container with holes for a couple hours to prescent the room well then drop the rat in the tank and watch from a distance where the snake can't see you and leave it in for about a hour(supervised) or until it eats it! If it didn't eat than try again in another 5 days. Keep repeating until it eats. After 3 attempts then assist feed with a fuzzy rat. Good luck and be patient!!!

I found the sterilite bin set-up thread that I had in my favorites...

This is a complete sterilite bin set-up. The ranco thermostat mentioned is a bit expensive. You can go with a Reptitemp 500R or a Hydrofarm MTPRTC Thermostat for under $30 if you're strapped for cash. The Ranco is, of course, the much better option.

Well bad news. Daisy died last night :( I was pretty worried about her because of her very lethargic attitude last night and this morning when I got up to check on her, she was gone.

Not sure I'll get another BP when we get another snake.

Thanks a ton for everyone's help, I wish this would have had a happier ending.

Sorry she didn’t make it…Unfortunately You waited too long to assist feed and she couldn’t digest the meal.

Aww,

I'm sorry to hear that. :(

I wouldn't let this put you off the species though - just remember why you chose her in the first place. :hug:

If you do decide to try again I would recommend getting one from a private breeder with a great reputation and you shouldn't have these unfortunate experiences happen again. :please:

When your ready ask us and we will help you get everything set up perfectly and then recommend someone to you.


dr del

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. My daughter is pretty upset, she really liked the snake. I liked the BP because they are slow moving, unlike a breed like a corn snake, so I wasn't afraid of it getting away from her.

A person I know, knows of a breeder in Madison, WI (I live close to there) that he has had very good luck with. I'm going to wait a little bit to get another snake I think.

When I do buy, would I be better off getting an order snake? Or should I stick with a baby? Also, if I get s smaller snake, is my small tank, with proper set up ok to house a baby BP?

Thanks again for all the support and advice, this has really been a great community.

I would go for a smaller one. But not like a hatching. A good established feeder.

Agreed....If you get another one, get one that has a great feeding response and doesn't skip a meal. Much easier first time snake to deal with.

It would also be good to ask the breeder how many meals he makes the baby snakes have before he sells them, usually 4 times is good. More is always better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost33

Well bad news. Daisy died last night :( I was pretty worried about her because of her very lethargic attitude last night and this morning when I got up to check on her, she was gone.

Not sure I'll get another BP when we get another snake.

Thanks a ton for everyone's help, I wish this would have had a happier ending.

---

I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't want to say it yesterday, but I didn't think she was going to survive from the pictures you posted of her earlier. I think she went too long without eating. :(

I hope that this doesn't prevent you from getting another BP in the future, one that is more established.