Kill pen horses

For anyone in the KY/TN area, there are 5 beautiful horses in a kill pen needing to be saved. Most are under 10-12 years old and kid broke.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...&id=1105308962

OMG I LOVE the paint!!! Those kill pen horses look a lot better than almost every kill pen horse we get at our auctions. It's upsetting to see the horrible condition the horses are in-broken legs, bullet wounds to the face, shattered skulls, etc. Either slaughter needs to open back up, or our laws need to be changed to protect these animals!!!! I've called the police several times on neglected horses and all they say is, the horses have food and water. The food was STRAW in the mud and four horses were standing in mud lot no bigger than a single car garage, no shelter!!! You could see every bone in their bodies and old festering wounds! :taz:

The "security" people at our auctions are psycho, they really watch for people taking pictures and will kick you out if you are caught-I know this first hand.

We do have horse traders that go through the kill pens and pick out the horses that have a chance. Rarely is a good horse sent to slaughter. Even the slaughter trailer drivers have a heart. I've spoke to several and they make a side living buying kill pen horses and selling them. They also told me that since the slaughter houses have got shut down horrible things are happening to horses now. People who don't take care of their horses have a harder time getting rid of them (because we are in Iowa and each border is a long drive from us) and will kill their horses with anything on hand if they don't want to wait for them to die of starvation. It's so terrible I don't even want to write out what he told me.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

OMG I LOVE the paint!!! Those kill pen horses look a lot better than almost every kill pen horse we get at our auctions. It's upsetting to see the horrible condition the horses are in-broken legs, bullet wounds to the face, shattered skulls, etc. Either slaughter needs to open back up, or our laws need to be changed to protect these animals!!!! I've called the police several times on neglected horses and all they say is, the horses have food and water. The food was STRAW in the mud and four horses were standing in mud lot no bigger than a single car garage, no shelter!!! You could see every bone in their bodies and old festering wounds! :taz:

The "security" people at our auctions are psycho, they really watch for people taking pictures and will kick you out if you are caught-I know this first hand.

We do have horse traders that go through the kill pens and pick out the horses that have a chance. Rarely is a good horse sent to slaughter. Even the slaughter trailer drivers have a heart. I've spoke to several and they make a side living buying kill pen horses and selling them. They also told me that since the slaughter houses have got shut down horrible things are happening to horses now. People who don't take care of their horses have a harder time getting rid of them (because we are in Iowa and each border is a long drive from us) and will kill their horses with anything on hand if they don't want to wait for them to die of starvation. It's so terrible I don't even want to write out what he told me.

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IAWTC. People who are not in the horse industry and those who have done "research" really should not have had a place in voting for the legislation to have U.S. slaughterhouses shut down in the first place. This "good deed" has done no good for the horse market in the U.S. and more horses are suffering because of it. The shut down of U.S. slaughterhouses means a longer ride to a slaughterhouse outside U.S. borders with who knows what kind of regulations if any. Slaughterhouses may not be pleasant, but they are necessary.

That, and outside the US, there is no regulations about how the horses are slaughtered, while in the US we have rules and laws regulating how the animals are killed to make it as humane as possible. Add in the travel time/length and how the animals are held prior to slaughter and the so called animal rights folks that pushed these anti-slaughter laws through have made a misery. Of course, they don't care, they just want some PR showing how much "good" they do.

I personally think they should reopen the slaughter, and put horsemeat on the books just like beef. If people want to not eat it, they don't have to. But regulate it like the beef industry and enforce the humane laws we already have.

My $0.02.

Glad to see that people know what PETA and the lot of them pushed for was wrong!

I have friends in that area posted it on fb

While I love horses, I have no problem with them being slaughtered for meat, given they are raised and slaughtered humanely (given green pastures, correct nutrition, fresh/clean water, clean living environments, and slaughtered in a way that requires little to no suffering).

While I would love to go vegan (and I will one day, darn it!) I am not one of those crazy people that go around wanting everyone to stop owning pets and stop eating meat. I hate it when one animal's life is valued over another just because it is considered a working animal or a pet. I could have a cow as a pet and call it a pet and even consider it a member of my family, but that should not stop Jimmy down the street from butchering his cow when its time for slaughter.

Now if the horses were not being slaughtered in a humane fashion, then yes, I would side with the AR folks as I do not agree with half-a** slaughter jobs. (an example would be cows that are supposed to receive a captive bolt gun shot in the head do not receive one or are not done properly.) That would be cause to stop or change the way the slaughter is done.

I think they should re-open slaughterhouses for horses. *gets off soapbox*

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/176696/1353938 Watch this and tell me again about your "educated" opinions!

I have read such garbage on here, sorry, pretty upset right now. To say that "horrible things are happening to horses because the slaughter houses have been closed" implies that horrible things were NOT happening to them in the first place! An ad to owners who are not caring for their horses, are you saying that we should make it easier for them to kill them for their convenience? Maybe we should build child-slaughter houses to make it easier for child abusers to get rid of their children? And I love "rarely are good horses sent to slaughter", REALLY??? I have seen a foal born in a kill pen, and slaughtered. Guess he wasn't your idea of a good horse.

I am not against eating horse meat if the process is humane, and I think PETA is a collosal joke. I just hate it when people spout off about things they know NOTHING about, and innocent animals suffer for it! I don't know about where YOU live, but her we don't have feral horses rampaging through neighborhoods creating a need for control. Horse owners CHOOSE to own their horses, and therefore make a committment to care for them. Caring owners who cannot keep them give them away, sell them or donate them, they do NOT kill them just because they are no longer interested.

By the way, those drivers make a side living as you say, by selling GOOD horses who were bound for slaughter! It's illegal in most states, and not all of them do that. So YES, "GOOD" hoses are slaughteres all the time! Including stolen horses who are never returned to thier RESPONSIBLE and HEARTBROKEN owners! You help NO ONE with your uneducated garbage!

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Originally Posted by hmfarms

By the way, those drivers make a side living as you say, by selling GOOD horses who were bound for slaughter! It's illegal in most states, and not all of them do that. So YES, "GOOD" hoses are slaughteres all the time! Including stolen horses who are never returned to thier RESPONSIBLE and HEARTBROKEN owners! You help NO ONE with your uneducated garbage!

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Well I guess I live in perfect land then. Yes there are good horses being sent to slaughter, but I would much rather them be sent to slaughter than sit in a mud lot and literally rot to death. I'm very much aware of how slaughter houses work and that some are extremely bad. That is why we need legislation that protects horses. Right now there are none being enforced other than "no more slaughter in the US" wow that sure does a lot... People are still abusing/killing/and sending their horses cross country to slaughter. If the authorities cared about the treatment of horses they would respond to calls like I, and many others have made, rather than sit back and let it happen.

And you must live in perfect horse auction land. Many of the kill pen horses that I have seen should be put out of their misery the second they walk, or are drug on to auction property. I should have taken pictures the last time I was there since you seem to be focused on how bad slaughter houses are rather than the treatment of the horses prior to heading to slaughter.

I'll just give you an idea of what I saw in just the last few months... One horse had half it's face hanging off dripping with puss from a very old wound. Another had a broken leg and you could see bone coming out of it's skin, and the cuts from chains wrapped around it's back legs so they could drag it into the pen with a tractor. Another had a broken skull/jaw bone and blood dripping from it's nose and mouth, it was an old enough wound that it was starting to heal, so at least a few days. Another horse that was drug in the pen with chains had been laying on the ground so long that it's skin was melting off from the infection and weight. There were a few clear bullet wound holes in many horses, lots of extremely ill horses, lots of horses with strangles, several with broken legs, missing hooves-hooves can detach, chunks of their skin missing from huge wounds, emaciated beyond repair, and these are just the major issues I saw! I have seen first hand how they load and unload the horses, it's barbaric, but if authorities don't care (they are standing right there) what do you expect? These people aren't going to stop doing it the 'easy way' if no one forces them to.

Also, why couldn't the kill pen buyers/slaughter buyers bid on horses? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. It's an auction and they have their own personal auction numbers, they have their own land to put them on, and they have their own trailers to pick the horses up with.

I'm not saying that I think slaughter houses are great, but I am saying that they are absolutely necessary if the law refuses to protect horses. Why are the people bringing in these horses not prosecuted?! If no one cares about the treatment of horses at least with slaughter houses they have a chance to be put out of their misery even if it's a horrible end to their life.

I love horses, they are my life, but the stuff I've seen at the auction houses in our area is absolutely sickening and I'm disgusted by the people that think slaughter houses are worse than the extreme neglect and abuse that is going on. If you want to fight something, don't fight for the slaughter houses to be shut down and expect everything to magically get better. It's the fact that horrible mistreatment of horses is allowed to happen that slaughter houses are running. You get PETA to fix the problem with people abusing and neglecting their horses, then we'll talk about how great it is that slaughter houses are shut down.

So sorry for my uneducated opinion on the matter :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by hmfarms

Horse owners CHOOSE to own their horses, and therefore make a committment to care for them. Caring owners who cannot keep them give them away, sell them or donate them, they do NOT kill them just because they are no longer interested.

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So only good people choose to own horses and they always do the right thing and never send them to auction. There aren't any people that are in it all for the money and when they can't sell the horse and make a buck off them, they NEVER send them to slaughter houses, because they chose to own the horse and they know the responsibility that comes with it.

None of those people would ever choose to slit their horse's throat, shoot them in the face with shot guns, light them on fire, stab them till they die, shoot them with nail guns, wrap metal wire around their throat till they can't breathe, or any other horrid death they can think of when they don't want the horse anymore. They don't bother to drive the horses to auction because it costs them more gas money than they would make in "meat" money. And you are probably so naive to think I'm making all those things up.

Please read this and know that it is honest and heartfelt, I am NOT being sarcastic. I want to appologize for offending you, I read your email several times, and actually have found great respect for you. I don't necessarily agree with you on every point (ESPECIALLY mentioning PETA as I personally think that they are a joke), but I do see that you are passionate about the horse's welfare and I feel badly for being so ugly. I am SOOO tired of hearing excuses for abuse, and most people are NOT as educated and informed as you are, again I appologize.

Please let me explain. I do NOT live in "perfect auction land", although I will say we have accomplished many good things in Virginia.I USED to see the horrors you talk about at our auctions, although they do not exist to that extent any more. Now, to be honest, our horse protection laws still suck, but a horse in Virginia is NOT allowed to go through an auction unless it is in fair condition and able to carry itself. You will not see chains in our auctions, nor the types of injuries that you talked about. I think that if I had to see that on a regular basis I might just rethink bringing a shotgun for the owners! We have a good vet on the premesis, and a humane investigator available. Owners who try to sell seriously injured or neglected animals are prosecuted on the grounds. I have been to the auctions that you talk about, and have actually bought horses just to bring them home and euthanize them humanely. To be honest, we have been so backwards in our animal laws that I never would have believed that those things still happened in other states. THAT is an obvious example of MY uneducated state, and I promise to learn not to spout my mouth off until I educate myself.

I hope that the benefit to our unfortunate introduction is that maybe you will see that I really do appologize, and would like to learn how to help to change things in your state. I don't have access to a lot of money, but I do have a network of really caring people and every horse we can help is one more blessing in this life. I understand if you don't want to correspond with me, but if what you say is happening in your auctions, I certainly would like to be involved in changing it. By the way, crow tastes AWFULL! Barbara

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Originally Posted by hmfarms

Caring owners who cannot keep them give them away, sell them or donate them, they do NOT kill them just because they are no longer interested.

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You clearly haven't spent a lot of time in the horse business. My father and my grandfather on my mothers side were both horse trainers. I grew up around horses. Its not as easy as giving them away, selling or donating them. First of all it costs a hell of a lot of money to feed and care for a horse. If you are in the horrible position of not being able to care for your horse you can certainly give it away, sell it cheap or donate it. Guess what happens to most horses that are sold cheap, donated or given away. The kind person who took your horse in puts it on a truck and sells it for dog food. You can make a decent amount of money at this and so it draws in all kinds of folks, especially when the economy is tough. I would much rather have a horse killed then starve to death.

Please read my newest post, and yes, I have been in horse rescue for over twently years. I have scraped maggots, held horse's heads as they died, and paid good money just to bring a horse home to euthanize it. I, like everyone else, have experienced times of financial hardship and have cleaned other's stalls, homes and toillets just to earn enough money for hay. Why are people ADVOCATING slaughter as an answer to abuse? Why are we not fighting to prosecute the people who put these horses in these situations? EVERY state has laws regulating some form of animal control (not non-profit rescue) who is mandated to sieze and/or accept owner submission. My heart goes out to ANYONE who cares about an animal but can no longer care for it, but I will not support inhumane slaughter just to give abusers and money makers a way to get rid of their evidence. I was wrong to blast everyone when I did not realize the conditions of auctions in other states, and have posted an appology. I still believe, however, that slaughter is not the answer, prevention and education are.
In Virginia, you are not allowed to even brring a cow into a sale unless it is able to walk into the auction on its own power, and shows no sign of neglect. Owners who attempt to are prosecuted. Does that mean there is no abuse in Virginia, of course not, we fight it every day, but have you been personnaly present through the entire slaughter process? Watched them fall, scream, fight because the scent of blood terrifies them and clings to you for days? Once for me, and no more. I still feel unclean. I agree that the conditions she talked about in the auctions there are HORRIble, but why is NO ONE talking about changing THAT???? Why is the answer to make it easier to kill them? Does re-opening the slaughterhouses stop the abuse, or make it easier and more profitable?

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Originally Posted by Egapal

You clearly haven't spent a lot of time in the horse business. My father and my grandfather on my mothers side were both horse trainers. I grew up around horses. Its not as easy as giving them away, selling or donating them. First of all it costs a hell of a lot of money to feed and care for a horse. If you are in the horrible position of not being able to care for your horse you can certainly give it away, sell it cheap or donate it. Guess what happens to most horses that are sold cheap, donated or given away. The kind person who took your horse in puts it on a truck and sells it for dog food. You can make a decent amount of money at this and so it draws in all kinds of folks, especially when the economy is tough. I would much rather have a horse killed then starve to death.

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Um, YOU said "The kind person who took your horse in puts it on a truck and sells it for dog food" THOSE are the people selling them to slaughter houses, who exactly would they sell them to ( or buy them FOR) if there were no slaughter houses? I have admitted my own ignorace on this site, and I am trying to make things better, HOWEVER You just serve to reinforce my point. WHY are you not working to promote legislation to STOP the cruelty instead of PROMOTING the way to incinerate the evidence? If you care about the horses and I think you do, slaughtering them is not the answer. Real money is made on horse slaughter, even if they have had a lifetime of abuse. My feeling, we should require that convicted abusers pay fines to rescues, just a
thought

Before the houses were closed, the International Fund for Horses pegged the number of slaughtered horses in USA at 65,000/year. The American Horse Council pegs the amount of the horses currently in the USA to be over 9 million. That's fewer than 1% of the horses in the states being slaughtered each year. Abuse becomes more evident now that we don't have a "disposal" system for these abused horses, but it is not new. This has been going on for years and it will continue to go on with or without slaughter. There is no major outbreak of these neglected horses because slaughter in the USA was closed.

This happens to all stock animals. Cows, horses, pigs, etc., it's just a society that can peg an animal as a pet worth fighting for, and a commodity not worth the fight.

There's a lot of emotion in this thread, and rightfully so.

hmfarms, you have only participated in this thread and I am wondering if you joined to only debate within it. You will find that this site is full of people who truly care about animals of all kinds, since most of us here deal with some of society's most scorned creatures (reptiles, invertebrates, etc).

My family has been in the horse business for decades. We have bred as well as rescued horses and we all have a very strong passion for them. Something does need to be done to help stop cruelty to ANY animals, whether they are dogs, cats, snakes, horses, cows...whatever. Animal cruelty of any sort is not right.

Does that mean that all slaughterhouses of any sort should be shut down? No. You will have a hard time convincing people to stop eating meat. Slaughterhouses, along with any industry associated with food animals, should be put under closer scrutiny to ensure that the animals have minimal suffering prior to their deaths.

I have been to slaughterhouses, I have also been to feed lots, chicken houses, and other sorts of processing facilities. The conditions that some of these animals are raised and kept in are equally, if not more disgusting than their relatively swift departure at the slaughterhouse.

Yes, we need stronger laws towards animal cruelty of all sorts. Yes, we need more scrutiny towards slaughterhouses and the facilities associated with them.

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Originally Posted by hmfarms

Um, YOU said "The kind person who took your horse in puts it on a truck and sells it for dog food" THOSE are the people selling them to slaughter houses, who exactly would they sell them to ( or buy them FOR) if there were no slaughter houses? I have admitted my own ignorace on this site, and I am trying to make things better, HOWEVER You just serve to reinforce my point. WHY are you not working to promote legislation to STOP the cruelty instead of PROMOTING the way to incinerate the evidence? If you care about the horses and I think you do, slaughtering them is not the answer. Real money is made on horse slaughter, even if they have had a lifetime of abuse. My feeling, we should require that convicted abusers pay fines to rescues, just a
thought

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I apologize for misjudging your level of understanding of the issues. I have and do support legislation to stop cruelty. I don't see all slaughter houses as being guilty of cruelty. I don't live in a perfect world and I believe in being realistic. Death is part of life. Animals die so that other animals may live. I understand that many people love horses and can't bear to see them slaughtered but I would argue that this is cultural. To paraphrase Denis Leary. Cute animals get to live but cows lets grill them up! As long as a best effort is made to minimize suffering I see no innate difference between slaughtering a cow and a horse. Laws passed in some states have done more harm than good do to people ignorant of the big picture making these decisions. My point was that if a horse is going to end up at a slaughter house I would much rather drive it there myself then have it crammed into a cattle truck where it will get injured on the way. If there is profit to be had why not have it go to the person who put so much time, effort and love into the horse, let the profit go to keep another animal from such a fate. At the end of the day we have to look at the big picture and try to minimize as much suffering as we can. Focusing all our efforts on a hand full of animals is not the best way. We need to pass sane laws that take the big picture into consideration. There will be animal abuse and suffering long after we are all dead. The best we can do is minimize it where we can. I applaud your efforts but don't condemn others for not fighting abuse the same way you choose to.

First I have to thank everyone for supporting me even though I 'support' horse slaughter. I appreciate my fellow members for jumping in on this hot topic!

To hmfarms, in my original post I tried my best to show that I was educated on the matter without getting into the gory details. The closing of slaughter houses was by far the worst thing to happen to horses in Iowa, and I would assume many other states. I never saw horses in such atrocious conditions until the horse slaughter ban that went through. The one thing that really bothers me is that the shutting down of horse slaughter did nothing more for the horses than prolong their torture. They STILL go to slaughter! The only difference is that they are shipped out of the country in deplorable conditions. If people thought slaughter houses in the US were bad, what about the ones in Mexico?! And then there's the boat slaughter houses. Horses walk onto the boat and leave as packages of meat.

Bottom line is that it's one of the most useless harmful laws ever created for horses (at least here in Iowa). At our auctions horses are worth more in meat than they are as a pets/riding partners. Dead broke horses are going for $200 to $400 dollars average while in the kill pen horses are going for $300-$400. It wasn't like that before the horse market crash, which was the same time slaughter houses were banned. The abuse has surfaced now that people don't have an easy disposal of their horses in which they can make some money unfortunately. As well as the at home 'euthanasia'. Like I said before, the problem lies with horse abuse not slaughter houses.

Hopefully you see my view on the subject as more than just heartless support for horse slaughter.

I don't own horses, I've only ridden a horse at the fair, I don't know anything about them outside of Preakness...

But...

We don't eat horses because we don't eat dogs. It's the same thing. Some time in American history, it was culturally accepted that an animal species generally accepted as a human companion deserve to die like humans - not for food consumption.

In the Philippines (I'm Filipino), dog meat can be sold at the market. Americans scoff at this calling Filipinos uncivilized. I understand the sentiment because I agree that the civility of a society can be measured by the way they treat their pets.

Members of my family became an advocate for dogs and are working towards changing the culture.

The way I see it - horses are bunched into the same category as dogs. Generally accepted as human companions. So, it became frowned upon to eat horses. I get it. I understand it.

So, slaughterhouses for horse meat for me is not the answer to animal cruelty. Just like selling dog meat at the market is not the answer to dog cruelty.

But - kill shelters for dogs are necessary. I see that. There are just people who shed the responsibility of caring for their pets and there are not enough resources to care for these abandoned animals. Therefore, kill shelters for horses may also be necessary.

Now, I don't know what you mean by slaughterhouse - if you mean slaughtering for eating, then I'm not in agreement with that. Kill shelters - like the ones they have for dogs - ok. I can support that.

Just my 1 cent.

Horses are not slaughtered for human consumption on the American market (there may be a small demand for it here but not nearly like other countries). The meat is exported and/or used for pet food, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't own horses, I've only ridden a horse at the fair, I don't know anything about them outside of Preakness...

But...

We don't eat horses because we don't eat dogs. It's the same thing. Some time in American history, it was culturally accepted that an animal species generally accepted as a human companion deserve to die like humans - not for food consumption.

In the Philippines (I'm Filipino), dog meat can be sold at the market. Americans scoff at this calling Filipinos uncivilized. I understand the sentiment because I agree that the civility of a society can be measured by the way they treat their pets.

Members of my family became an advocate for dogs and are working towards changing the culture.

The way I see it - horses are bunched into the same category as dogs. Generally accepted as human companions. So, it became frowned upon to eat horses. I get it. I understand it.

So, slaughterhouses for horse meat for me is not the answer to animal cruelty. Just like selling dog meat at the market is not the answer to dog cruelty.

But - kill shelters for dogs are necessary. I see that. There are just people who shed the responsibility of caring for their pets and there are not enough resources to care for these abandoned animals. Therefore, kill shelters for horses may also be necessary.

Now, I don't know what you mean by slaughterhouse - if you mean slaughtering for eating, then I'm not in agreement with that. Kill shelters - like the ones they have for dogs - ok. I can support that.

Just my 1 cent.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

Horses are not slaughtered for human consumption on the American market (there may be a small demand for it here but not nearly like other countries). The meat is exported and/or used for pet food, as far as I know.

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No difference. Somebody is still eating it outside of the worms that clean out buried carion. Dogs and cats in kill shelters or euthanized at the vet are usually cremated.

It is stupid for Americans to say "we don't eat our horses" yet sell them for somebody else to eat.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

Horses are not slaughtered for human consumption on the American market (there may be a small demand for it here but not nearly like other countries). The meat is exported and/or used for pet food, as far as I know.

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Yep. There are technically no laws against eating horse, or even dog, in the US, but there is a very strong taboo against doing it and you would be hard pressed to find horse meat for human consumption. Most horses are given vaccinations and medications that deem them unsuitable for human consumption-it says right on the container-so if you wanted to safely eat a horse it would have to be raised like cattle.

There aren't kill shelters, that I know of, for horses because they are very expensive to dispose of unless you have a large plot of land and big machines. There are cremation facilities but those cost money. That's why slaughter houses are the closest is gets for horses who are unlucky enough to end up with bad owners. Some of the bad owners are decent enough to drop the horses off in national parks before they die, I suppose that's better than sending them to their deaths-I'm assuming that's what they think as well-but it's causing lots of problems with all the loose horses.

A friend of mine loads up his horses and drives to Colorado, I believe, to go to the national/state parks to pick up free horses. The rangers count how many horses you have in the trailer when you go into the park to ensure that you bring back all your horses. If you bring back any extra horses they thank you for it! A lot of the horses he picks up are ex race horses (we/he assumes, they have tattoos on their lips). I'm not sure if he has ever looked any of them up by their tattoos, but they are nice looking horses! I don't know if this was ever a problem before horse slaughter was shut down, but I've been hearing about how out of control dropping off horses has become in the last year or two.

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Originally Posted by anatess

No difference. Somebody is still eating it outside of the worms that clean out buried carion. Dogs and cats in kill shelters or euthanized at the vet are usually cremated.

It is stupid for Americans to say "we don't eat our horses" yet sell them for somebody else to eat.

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That's why the horse slaughter ban makes absolutely no sense to me. If we are so worked up about horses being slaughtered why is it still legal to send them to slaughter in other countries. It's a worthless waste of time law.

As I said before, if our country isn't willing to protect horses against abuse, their only way out is slaughter. I'm not pro slaughter, but if the authorities are unwilling to step up and take some action I would rather them be slaughtered than die a slow horrible death from starvation or infection.

If I called the authorities on a cat or dog that looked like the horses I've called about, the police would be out there in a heart beat. If horses don't have the dignity to be protected from abuse/neglect like cats and dogs, why are they protected from slaughter like cats and dogs? It's a double edged sword.

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Originally Posted by anatess

No difference. Somebody is still eating it outside of the worms that clean out buried carion. Dogs and cats in kill shelters or euthanized at the vet are usually cremated.

It is stupid for Americans to say "we don't eat our horses" yet sell them for somebody else to eat.

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As Slithern noted, kill shelters for cats and dogs are no where near what would be needed for something similar for horses.

Also, as disgusting and horrible as it is, not all euthanized pets are cremated. There has been a lot of evidence stacking up (including an EPA document) that cheap pet food companies have bought 'animal by-products' from animal shelters to use in their pet food.

Something else from the FDA

Yeah, fun stuff. :(

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't own horses, I've only ridden a horse at the fair, I don't know anything about them outside of Preakness...

But...

We don't eat horses because we don't eat dogs. It's the same thing. Some time in American history, it was culturally accepted that an animal species generally accepted as a human companion deserve to die like humans - not for food consumption.

In the Philippines (I'm Filipino), dog meat can be sold at the market. Americans scoff at this calling Filipinos uncivilized. I understand the sentiment because I agree that the civility of a society can be measured by the way they treat their pets.

Members of my family became an advocate for dogs and are working towards changing the culture.

The way I see it - horses are bunched into the same category as dogs. Generally accepted as human companions. So, it became frowned upon to eat horses. I get it. I understand it.

So, slaughterhouses for horse meat for me is not the answer to animal cruelty. Just like selling dog meat at the market is not the answer to dog cruelty.

But - kill shelters for dogs are necessary. I see that. There are just people who shed the responsibility of caring for their pets and there are not enough resources to care for these abandoned animals. Therefore, kill shelters for horses may also be necessary.

Now, I don't know what you mean by slaughterhouse - if you mean slaughtering for eating, then I'm not in agreement with that. Kill shelters - like the ones they have for dogs - ok. I can support that.

Just my 1 cent.

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I can't believe that someone who frequents a snake forum would write something this ridiculous. Let me get this straight. You are against killing horses for dogs to eat but you are ok with killing horses and cremating them. Once again you are fine with the death of the horse. The problem you have is that another animal could gain sustenance from the death of the horse. How exactly do you justify your snake keeping. If this is what it takes to be civilized I am not interested. You appear to be pro dog, what should dogs eat. Should we raise and kill a cow for dog food and then cremate the horse? As a society we have really lost touch. We need to minimize suffering. If using the body of a horse can keep us from having to kill some other more socially expectable animal then how could that be bad. In case anyone wants to take my position to the extreme to rebut my statements let me do that for you. I am an organ donor and if it was legal I would have no problem with my family taking whatever is left and having it rendered for animal food. I would much rather my pets get a good meal then have some ashes for my family display on the mantel.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I can't believe that someone who frequents a snake forum would write something this ridiculous. Let me get this straight. You are against killing horses for dogs to eat but you are ok with killing horses and cremating them. Once again you are fine with the death of the horse. The problem you have is that another animal could gain sustenance from the death of the horse. How exactly do you justify your snake keeping. If this is what it takes to be civilized I am not interested. You appear to be pro dog, what should dogs eat. Should we raise and kill a cow for dog food and then cremate the horse? As a society we have really lost touch. We need to minimize suffering. If using the body of a horse can keep us from having to kill some other more socially expectable animal then how could that be bad. In case anyone wants to take my position to the extreme to rebut my statements let me do that for you. I am an organ donor and if it was legal I would have no problem with my family taking whatever is left and having it rendered for animal food. I would much rather my pets get a good meal then have some ashes for my family display on the mantel.

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I know this isn't directed at me but I did want to clarify something that I said. (I do understand and agree with what you are saying)

In my previous post in this thread, I talked about animals that were euthanized chemically being rendered into pet food.

The largest problem with this (aside from the fact that most owners have no idea that this could happen when their animals are euthanized) is that the medications the animals were on, along with the chemical (pentobarbital) used to euthanize the animal have the potential to be incredibly harmful to animals that ingest them.

The pet food industry is a whole different animal (no pun intended) of a thread so I won't continue to go off topic.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

I know this isn't directed at me but I did want to clarify something that I said. (I do understand and agree with what you are saying)

In my previous post in this thread, I talked about animals that were euthanized chemically being rendered into pet food.

The largest problem with this (aside from the fact that most owners have no idea that this could happen when their animals are euthanized) is that the medications the animals were on, along with the chemical (pentobarbital) used to euthanize the animal have the potential to be incredibly harmful to animals that ingest them.

The pet food industry is a whole different animal (no pun intended) of a thread so I won't continue to go off topic.

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A really good point. You are correct in that my post was in no way directed at you. Using euthanized animals for food is wrong on many levels. The chemicals are of course an issue. As much as I would be ok with myself or my animals being used as food (assuming it was safe to do so) its certainly not ok to do so without the consent of the owner. Its also not ok to sell animals feed with ingredients misrepresented.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

Also, as disgusting and horrible as it is, not all euthanized pets are cremated. There has been a lot of evidence stacking up (including an EPA document) that cheap pet food companies have bought 'animal by-products' from animal shelters to use in their pet food.

Something else from the FDA

Yeah, fun stuff. :(

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Oh my god that is sick.... I was reading what the chemical is used for besides euthanasia. It's used for sedation and treating seizures. I've never heard of treating farm animals for seizures and rarely sedating them, if ever. I don't believe cows are ever sedated, definitely not chickens or anything. Horses are sedated often for teeth removal, dental work, surgeries etc. But I'm thinking the chemical would be expelled from the body after some time. Animals euthanized then turned to food would probably have high amounts in the body though.... that's really sad.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I can't believe that someone who frequents a snake forum would write something this ridiculous. Let me get this straight. You are against killing horses for dogs to eat but you are ok with killing horses and cremating them. Once again you are fine with the death of the horse.

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I don't see why it is ridiculous for the same reason that I don't see why the taboo against feeding your pet poodle Fido to your snake is ridiculous.

I am fine with the death of anything. I am not fine with inhumane killing of anything. And I am not fine with animal abuse.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The problem you have is that another animal could gain sustenance from the death of the horse. How exactly do you justify your snake keeping. If this is what it takes to be civilized I am not interested. You appear to be pro dog, what should dogs eat. Should we raise and kill a cow for dog food and then cremate the horse? As a society we have really lost touch.

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Sure, farm a horse for dog food then. Or farm a dog for snake food. But, it rankles the sensibilities to ask a dog or a horse to serve his human master for the length of his lifetime then feed that same dog/horse off when it dies.

We, snake keepers all feel that sensibility when we get attached to our feeder rats. I didn't make the rules - American culture did.

And, in case you don't know, I was paraphrasing Mahatma Ghandi's quote. The actual quote is:
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man"

Yeah, it would be awesome if you can discuss these points after you get off your high horse - pun intended. Throwing insults serve nothing but to make you sound idiotic.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't see why it is ridiculous for the same reason that I don't see why the taboo against feeding your pet poodle Fido to your snake is ridiculous.

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Feeding Fido to your snake is taboo because there is no precedent for doing so and other than that there is nothing wrong with it, presuming your snake is large enough to quickly dispatch Fido. There is a long standing precedent for turning horses into food, human or pet food. Horse meat is actually pretty good for you, better than beef.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I am fine with the death of anything. I am not fine with inhumane killing of anything. And I am not fine with animal abuse.

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A slaughter house does not necessarily mean cruel. I don't think anyone would argue that regulations should be in place to keep the slaughter houses as humane as possible.

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Originally Posted by anatess

Sure, farm a horse for dog food then. Or farm a dog for snake food. But, it rankles the sensibilities to ask a dog or a horse to serve his human master for the length of his lifetime then feed that same dog/horse off when it dies.

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It rankles your senses. Many cultures including ours not so long ago had no problem with an animal serving its human masters for a lifetime then being used for food. Milk cows, oxen, sheep, chickens and yes horses all can have long lives of service only to end up as food. The fact that dogs typically don't as you already stated is a cultural thing. Many societies don't have a problem with dogs being used for meat and they are not less civilized for that practice. To say they are is to be ethnocentric.

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Originally Posted by anatess

We, snake keepers all feel that sensibility when we get attached to our feeder rats. I didn't make the rules - American culture did.

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Whose point are you making? My breeder rodents get cared for as if they were pets then fed to my snakes. I have no problem with that. I would likewise have no problem taking in someone else's pet rodent (assume it was healthy and well cared for) and feeding it to my snakes. The fact that I feel something for my animals is part of keeping them. It does not mean that I should cremate them when they die of natural causes.

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Originally Posted by anatess

And, in case you don't know, I was paraphrasing Mahatma Ghandi's quote. The actual quote is:
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man"

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Great, we all agree, who am I to argue with Ghandi. Slaughter houses are not necessarily cruel. I would certainly agree that animals who serve as food should be treated with dignity and respect as all living things should be. I eat local organically raised animals, and the few horses that have gone to slaughter went to a facility that we had thoroughly vetted.

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Originally Posted by anatess

Yeah, it would be awesome if you can discuss these points after you get off your high horse - pun intended. Throwing insults serve nothing but to make you sound idiotic.

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It would be awesome if more people could put pointless cultural taboo's aside and go back to a time when we didn't waste so much. There was a time not to long ago when it would have been taboo to let an animals body go to waste. Are there issues surrounding horse slaughter? Sure. As for sounding idiotic. The American Quarter Horse Association was against the closing of slaughter houses on the grounds that it would do more harm than good. Do you really think we should ignore the AQHA's well thought out position and accept yours.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Feeding Fido to your snake is taboo because there is no precedent for doing so and other than that there is nothing wrong with it, presuming your snake is large enough to quickly dispatch Fido. There is a long standing precedent for turning horses into food, human or pet food. Horse meat is actually pretty good for you, better than beef.

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I don't understand what you mean by "no precedent". In the long history of America, there was a time when dog was food. In some areas of the Philippines, dog is still food.

I'm not arguing whether horses should be food or not. I'm not even arguing whether horses should be food or not. I am merely stating (and if you re-read my first post on the matter, you will see me state it clearly) that I UNDERSTAND the culture. It is not my culture. I'm Filipino, not American. But, I understand how the American culture of not eating Fido came to be. And I agree with that culture.

I didn't say - at any time - you should agree with it too. But, it is YOUR culture.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

A slaughter house does not necessarily mean cruel. I don't think anyone would argue that regulations should be in place to keep the slaughter houses as humane as possible.

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I never said it did.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

It rankles your senses. Many cultures including ours not so long ago had no problem with an animal serving its human masters for a lifetime then being used for food. Milk cows, oxen, sheep, chickens and yes horses all can have long lives of service only to end up as food. The fact that dogs typically don't as you already stated is a cultural thing. Many societies don't have a problem with dogs being used for meat and they are not less civilized for that practice. To say they are is to be ethnocentric.

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Many cultures including yours not so long ago had no problem hanging a man in the center square. One can argue that it did not mean they were less civilized for that practice.

So, if you read my first post again, you will see that I did not say Filipinos are less civilized for that practice. I said Americans (remember, I'm Filipino) look at Filipinos as uncivilized for that practice and I can agree with it if you measure civility by the way a society treats their pets (which, is not my quote either).

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Whose point are you making? My breeder rodents get cared for as if they were pets then fed to my snakes. I have no problem with that. I would likewise have no problem taking in someone else's pet rodent (assume it was healthy and well cared for) and feeding it to my snakes. The fact that I feel something for my animals is part of keeping them. It does not mean that I should cremate them when they die of natural causes.

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Sure, that's your sentiment. It's not the general consensus in the United States of America. And uhm, did I mention I'm Filipino?

You have rats in your house because you raise them to feed your snake. Nothing wrong with that. But according to American culture, pet rat Stanley, do not need to be fed to the snake. Hey, don't look at me. I'm Filipino.

But, yes, I wouldn't feed my pet hamster to my snake. He gets a burial in my backyard right next to the old dog complete with flowers. That's just how I roll. No, I didn't waste the poor hamster's life. He served me well.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Great, we all agree, who am I to argue with Ghandi. Slaughter houses are not necessarily cruel.

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I never said they were.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I would certainly agree that animals who serve as food should be treated with dignity and respect as all living things should be. I eat local organically raised animals, and the few horses that have gone to slaughter went to a facility that we had thoroughly vetted.

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Yeay, we agree.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

It would be awesome if more people could put pointless cultural taboo's aside and go back to a time when we didn't waste so much. There was a time not to long ago when it would have been taboo to let an animals body go to waste. Are there issues surrounding horse slaughter? Sure. As for sounding idiotic. The American Quarter Horse Association was against the closing of slaughter houses on the grounds that it would do more harm than good. Do you really think we should ignore the AQHA's well thought out position and accept yours.

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Again... re-read my post. I never said to close slaughter houses. All I said was that pet horses, like pet dogs, don't need to be eaten. So, rename slaughter houses into kill shelters and you're good to go.

And about an animal going to waste - if you hunt deer and not eat it, then that's a waste. Fido can be buried/cremated like grandma because, you know, we just don't eat grandma regardless of how yummy she is. And yes, grandma is human while Fido is not. I see the difference. But, we're all one happy family in this thing called the Animal Kingdom.

So upsetting to know such beautiful animals aren't cared for. I have an Egyptian Arabian and a Tennessee Walker, myself. I wish I could rescue others, but money is too tight.

Ok I get it your Filipino. So let me change the tone of my objection. You are making some pretty big generelazions which I guess I should excuse because you are Filipino. Most people who hunt in the USA eat what they kill if the meat of the animal is palatable. In short, we eat the dear we kill for the most part. Sure some Americans look down on cultures that eat dogs and or horses. As I said those people would be considered ethnocentric (not a great quality to be saddled with). The United States of America is a huge melting pot. We have cultures from all over the world all side by side. There are good things and bad things about all cultures. I am going to go out on a limb and say hanging a man in town square is an uncivilized thing to do. I can site lots of reasons for this. Eating horses, dogs, and feeding rats to snakes are not uncivilized and I can site reasons for that. The fact that some people thing that it is uncivilized does not make it so. You have to look at the person making the claim. That being said you don't know a whole lot about horses, the horse industry in the United States and how its all affected by slaughter houses. So it all comes down to the fact that you don't think a horse who has served its keeper should be slaughtered for food. Well I disagree and as a person who has cared for horses in the united states I think I have a right to chime in on the topic. As for Grandma, she is not going to taste all that great. She is old and probably tough. I don't know about your Grandma but my Grandma donated her body to medical science when she died. I believe that the use of her body was far better used by a medical school that trained future doctors than as food. My Grandfather was part Native American and when he died he wanted nothing more than to be put in a tree stand where the forest could come and take what it wanted of him. Although he was not of the Sioux tribe he studied the customs of many tribes and always admired their funeral customs. Unfortunately my Mother and Aunts and Uncles decided to go with a more traditional burial as his wishes were against the law.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't understand what you mean by "no precedent". In the long history of America, there was a time when dog was food. In some areas of the Philippines, dog is still food.

I'm not arguing whether horses should be food or not. I'm not even arguing whether horses should be food or not. I am merely stating (and if you re-read my first post on the matter, you will see me state it clearly) that I UNDERSTAND the culture. It is not my culture. I'm Filipino, not American. But, I understand how the American culture of not eating Fido came to be. And I agree with that culture.

I didn't say - at any time - you should agree with it too. But, it is YOUR culture.



I never said it did.



Many cultures including yours not so long ago had no problem hanging a man in the center square. One can argue that it did not mean they were less civilized for that practice.

So, if you read my first post again, you will see that I did not say Filipinos are less civilized for that practice. I said Americans (remember, I'm Filipino) look at Filipinos as uncivilized for that practice and I can agree with it if you measure civility by the way a society treats their pets (which, is not my quote either).



Sure, that's your sentiment. It's not the general consensus in the United States of America. And uhm, did I mention I'm Filipino?

You have rats in your house because you raise them to feed your snake. Nothing wrong with that. But according to American culture, pet rat Stanley, do not need to be fed to the snake. Hey, don't look at me. I'm Filipino.

But, yes, I wouldn't feed my pet hamster to my snake. He gets a burial in my backyard right next to the old dog complete with flowers. That's just how I roll. No, I didn't waste the poor hamster's life. He served me well.



I never said they were.



Yeay, we agree.




Again... re-read my post. I never said to close slaughter houses. All I said was that pet horses, like pet dogs, don't need to be eaten. So, rename slaughter houses into kill shelters and you're good to go.

And about an animal going to waste - if you hunt deer and not eat it, then that's a waste. Fido can be buried/cremated like grandma because, you know, we just don't eat grandma regardless of how yummy she is. And yes, grandma is human while Fido is not. I see the difference. But, we're all one happy family in this thing called the Animal Kingdom.

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