Should there be a debate about captive bread vs. Wild caught?

About 2 years ago I had wanted to get a pet for myself. My wife had 2 cats that we had recently purchased for her. I have always wanted a python since I was in 1st grade. Meanwhile my mother would never allow me to have one. So my wife was not a huge fan of snakes since her father had 5 Argentina Boa’s that were about 16 feet long. Her father is a trauma surgeon in Argentina and he had built a large enclosed environment for them all to live in their back yard. My wife saw how these snakes attacked and was hesitant about buying a python.

I had done a lot of research about what type of snake to buy. I finally choice to get a Ball Python due to the length of life they have over the red tail boa or other types of snakes that we can easily legally purchase. I was debating on captive bread since so many people recommended it over the wild caught pythons from Africa. I went to a few breeders websites and went to the store that had just received 5 wild caught baby pythons. I found the one I wanted and yes it was a wild caught ball python from Africa.
I named her Samara which is Arabic which means “Guarded by God”. Since I am Baptist and some extremist believes snakes are curst. I wanted to show that she was Guarded by Christ. I have read many websites and books which says you should not handle your new snake for 2 weeks. I did not listen and I was holding and loving on my new baby from day 1. She had been the best snake that anyone could ever ask for. She had gone from 16 inches to over 42 inches in just 2 years.

My wife who fell in love with Samara in just 2 weeks had found a ball python that was captive breed about 6 months later. Sahara was 1 and half when we adopted her. Sahara had also lived in a cage with other pythons and she was vey nippy at first. We had separated them at first and Sahara who appeared to be a picky eater would not eat on a regular schedule. So we put both in the same cage and Sahara started to eat normally. Every now in than Sahara will fast and go without eating for weeks. While Samara my wild caught python will not miss a meal to save her life.

I have read so many threads about how pythons are not active and stay in a ball most of the time. I guess we have two pythons that do not fit that mold. Samara is almost like a dog. Soon as I get home she peeks out of her log and comes out and wants to be picked up. While Sahara lives most of her life in the water and no she does not have any pesticides. They both enjoy going to Petco and Petsmart with us. In the spring and summer times we take our pythons out on a nature walk. We let them down on the ground and let them crawl around. I know many will disagree with out methods. Each person has the right to do with what they want with their snakes. Our pythons are more than pets to us, they are a part of our family.

This is where I think the debate begins… When we have captive break pythons they have a weaker immune system and a higher risk of inbreeding. While wild caught pythons are less likely to be inbreeded and they have a stronger immune system. There are negative sides to purchasing wild caught as well. In my limited experience of buying both as pets not for a business I have to say my Wild caught python is bigger and stronger than my captive breed python. My wild caught python will let me cover her head and put her head in my mouth. While my captive breed will hide her head if you get near her. The Wild caught will never miss a meal while my captive breed is very picky. I have studied these snakes for 2 years… I have talked with many exotic vets who believe the same way I do about Wild captured being the better of the two. Although I am sure many breeders will disagree… I would like to hear your side on this topic. Do you own a wild or captive breed python. Have you ever owned both what is your story like?

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Originally Posted by Samara

My wild caught python will let me cover her head and put her head in my mouth.

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What?

I don't agree with the thousands imported and sold to pet stores. I think only serious breeders should be able to import. And, there would never be a new morph without a wild caught 'dinker' :).

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I have studied these snakes for 2 years

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Keep on studying :gj:

With all due respect, you can't really draw those types of conclusions with a base sample of TWO animals.

And why are you putting your snake's head in your mouth? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Zach Nasty

What?

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+1; please do not put your snake in your mouth - while the risk is small, all reptiles have the possibility of carrying salmonella on their skin, and putting them in your mouth/kissing them/licking them is just asking for trouble.

As for the topic of the thread, I think that generally speaking, it's best to buy captive bred both for health reasons and in order to keep demand for wild-caught as low as possible - there's really no reason to pull animals from the wild except for genetic diversity reasons.

I love Bread.

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Originally Posted by Samara

About 2 years ago I had wanted to get a pet for myself. My wife had 2 cats that we had recently purchased for her. I have always wanted a python since I was in 1st grade. Meanwhile my mother would never allow me to have one. So my wife was not a huge fan of snakes since her father had 5 Argentina Boa’s that were about 16 feet long. Her father is a trauma surgeon in Argentina and he had built a large enclosed environment for them all to live in their back yard. My wife saw how these snakes attacked and was hesitant about buying a python.

I had done a lot of research about what type of snake to buy. I finally choice to get a Ball Python due to the length of life they have over the red tail boa or other types of snakes that we can easily legally purchase. I was debating on captive bread since so many people recommended it over the wild caught pythons from Africa. I went to a few breeders websites and went to the store that had just received 5 wild caught baby pythons. I found the one I wanted and yes it was a wild caught ball python from Africa.
I named her Samara which is Arabic which means “Guarded by God”. Since I am Baptist and some extremist believes snakes are curst. I wanted to show that she was Guarded by Christ. I have read many websites and books which says you should not handle your new snake for 2 weeks. I did not listen and I was holding and loving on my new baby from day 1. She had been the best snake that anyone could ever ask for. She had gone from 16 inches to over 42 inches in just 2 years.

My wife who fell in love with Samara in just 2 weeks had found a ball python that was captive breed about 6 months later. Sahara was 1 and half when we adopted her. Sahara had also lived in a cage with other pythons and she was vey nippy at first. We had separated them at first and Sahara who appeared to be a picky eater would not eat on a regular schedule. So we put both in the same cage and Sahara started to eat normally. Every now in than Sahara will fast and go without eating for weeks. While Samara my wild caught python will not miss a meal to save her life.

I have read so many threads about how pythons are not active and stay in a ball most of the time. I guess we have two pythons that do not fit that mold. Samara is almost like a dog. Soon as I get home she peeks out of her log and comes out and wants to be picked up. While Sahara lives most of her life in the water and no she does not have any pesticides. They both enjoy going to Petco and Petsmart with us. In the spring and summer times we take our pythons out on a nature walk. We let them down on the ground and let them crawl around. I know many will disagree with out methods. Each person has the right to do with what they want with their snakes. Our pythons are more than pets to us, they are a part of our family.

This is where I think the debate begins… When we have captive break pythons they have a weaker immune system and a higher risk of inbreeding. While wild caught pythons are less likely to be inbreeded and they have a stronger immune system. There are negative sides to purchasing wild caught as well. In my limited experience of buying both as pets not for a business I have to say my Wild caught python is bigger and stronger than my captive breed python. My wild caught python will let me cover her head and put her head in my mouth. While my captive breed will hide her head if you get near her. The Wild caught will never miss a meal while my captive breed is very picky. I have studied these snakes for 2 years… I have talked with many exotic vets who believe the same way I do about Wild captured being the better of the two. Although I am sure many breeders will disagree… I would like to hear your side on this topic. Do you own a wild or captive breed python. Have you ever owned both what is your story like?

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Wow there is a lot of wrong info there. Sorry. 1st, your snake is not WC it is Captive hatched meaning eggs were collected from from a wild snake, hatched, and then shipped to the US. Your snake has never lived in the wild. As far as I know they don't import true WC hatchlings, only adults. I can assure you that true WC snakes are not easier to feed than captive bred or captive hatched animals. Maybe you should do a true experiment. Buy 50 CB snakes and 50 true WC snakes. I guarantee that you will change your opinion on this subject. And yes, I have owned plenty of both.

P.S. Why would you want to put your snakes head in your mouth??? You know they eats rats with that mouth right?

havnt we already debated this same exact thing many times before :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Royality

I love Bread.

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Sorry but that made me :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Samara

I went to a few breeders websites and went to the store that had just received 5 wild caught baby pythons. I found the one I wanted and yes it was a wild caught ball python from Africa... I did not listen and I was holding and loving on my new baby from day 1.

My wife who fell in love with Samara in just 2 weeks had found a ball python that was captive breed about 6 months later. Sahara was 1 and half when we adopted her. Sahara had also lived in a cage with other pythons and she was vey nippy at first.

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(emphasis mine)

Samara, the bolded part of your post above is more than likely the reason why your wild caught/captive hatched is better adjusted than your captive bred.

Wild caught specimens are usually adult or sub-adult when they enter the U.S. At that time, the drastic change from the wild to a captive facility then over to shipment and finally to a guy's home is a lot of change for a wild caught that causes it a lot of stress.

Captive bred specimens don't have as drastic a change to their environment.

Also, for nature preservation/conservation purposes, we prefer to keep wild population as untouched as possible except for purposes of introducing new genes to the captive pet industry. As Brian Barczyk of BHB Reptiles (Snakebytes.tv) always says - "Conservation through captive propagation". So we discourage wild caught specimens for pets. We encourage captive bred for pets and leave the wild caught to the breeders to diversify the gene pool.

Hope this helps you see a different perspective on things.

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Royality

I love Bread.

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HAHAHAHA:laughing:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

With all due respect, you can't really draw those types of conclusions with a base sample of TWO animals.

And why are you putting your snake's head in your mouth? :confused:

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I do it. If they get close to my mouth I mess with them by going "Om" and just grab their heads with my mouth for a second. Mind that I also kiss my snakes and will "om" their bodies if they wrap around my head and put their bodies there. They dont get hurt, I risk salmonella, and it's kind of cute.

Yeah, there are desperate problems with this entire story.

As has been pointed out, Captive Hatched is NOT the same as Wild Caught.

Your captive-hatched ball python was born in a pit. Hundreds of clutches of eggs were found in the wild and taken from their mothers, then they were placed in a big pit together to incubate. Once the babies emerged, they were promptly sorted, bagged up, and shipped to the US. Once here, an importer opened up the bags, discarded the dead ones, and put the live ones into large enclosures with water to rehydrate.
Here, they were further sorted--anything interesting was weeded out to be sold separately. In some facilities, they were sexed, while others did not bother.

At this point, most of the babies had shed out. They were then shipped off to retailers (such as the pet store you got yours from). Many of them were never offered a meal, or never accepted a meal, before they arrived at the pet store. (Some importers/distributers feed hatchlings, some don't--often it depends on how long they're there before they are sold).

So you see, from day one, your little CH baby was subjected to overcrowding and tremendous stress. It is a testament to the hardiness of ball pythons that it has done so well for you.

The little CBB baby, on the other hand, was lovingly nursed along from the moment it hatched, and given the best of anything. If it didn't feed on its own, it was assist-fed until it did. No reputable breeder houses hatchling snakes in groups, so it's likely that its care wasn't top notch beyond that, however. It certainly doesn't sound like it was handled.

Some CBB baby ball pythons are finicky eaters, and perhaps not as strong as an established CH. This is because any weak CH hatchlings died in the bags on the way from Africa...not because CH babies are stronger in general.
What's more, a higher proportion of CH babies fail to eat, and most will perish in the hands of inexperienced keepers. You got the cream of the CH crop, and you got a CBB that most would consider undesirable (which is why it was sold at over a year old). Hardly a fair comparison.

You should be comparing a great CH with a great CBB. I think you will find that if any difference exists, it is in favor of the CBB, not the CH.

I do hope you had your snakes checked for parasites before you decided to house them together.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

And why are you putting your snake's head in your mouth? :confused:

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Yeah, I just think of how my snakes "paint" their enclosures with their lovely presents. I'm not much of a clean freak but snakes are not sanitary creatures imo.

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You should be comparing a great CH with a great CBB. I think you will find that if any difference exists, it is in favor of the CBB, not the CH.

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I completely agree with this!

I love bread, too... with peanut butter and jelly... :P
Though, I think I'll keep my snake's head out of my mouth

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Originally Posted by PixieMaple

I love bread, too... with peanut butter and jelly... :P
Though, I think I'll keep my snake's head out of my mouth

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Totally unrelated but: Bahahahah! I love your display picture! :rofl:

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So my wife was not a huge fan of snakes since her father had 5 Argentina Boa’s that were about 16 feet long

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How has no one pointed this out? Haha. A 16 foot argie? I find that impossible to believe. A 10 foot argie is huge for the species, let alone 16 feet.

Back to the rest of the post.

This "studying" you have done was on 2 animals. One captive hatched, another CBB that sounded like a rescue. And this has only been going on for a couple of years? A true study that could hold any merit would span around 20 years, and hundreds of animals to have any credibility.

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So we put both in the same cage and Sahara started to eat normally

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I havent seen anyone point this out either.

Putting two snakes in the same cage is not a good idea. Even extremely experienced breeders or hobbyists wouldn't think about keeping multiple snakes together unless breeding, even then the time together are usually relatively short. Keeping two snakes together can cause disease and illness to spread. Also if one has a bowel movement and its not so regular, whos to say which one has the problem? If one gets mites, they both get mites. I highly suggest seperating the snakes. If you think the ball will only eat and feel secure with other BP's, i feel you are mistaken. These are not social creatures and when people think they are "cuddling" or "snuggling" they are actually competing for the same spot to thermoregulate.

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While Sahara lives most of her life in the water and no she does not have any pesticides

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Im guessing you mean endo-parasites such as mites and tics. Excessive soaking is not always an indication of mites or tics, but an indication of improper temps. She may be trying to cool down because the cage is too hot, or she cannont properly thermoregulate because the other ball is taking up the room in that hide.

Also an active BP is usually stressed or hungry. A healthy BP is a ball that sits in his hide almost all day, eats regularly, fully sheds, defecates, and urinates.

Bringing your snakes into petsmart, petco, for hikes can put it at risk for contracting disease, parasites and other illnesses. While many people bring their snakes outside for a little sun and fresh air, and usually a photo shoot, bringing them to public places like petco and petsmart, which dont always have the best husbandry, can lead to an unhealthy BP. Now I do take my snakes outside into my yard and I dont disagree with some outside time, its just the places you are taking them I have to disagree with.

Now for the head in the mouth. This puts you and your BP at risk. What if she decided to tag you and grabbed onto the side of your mouth? Your first reaction would be to pull away, causing many of her teeth to be ripped out, leaving open sores for infection to settle in. Now you'll have plenty o' teeth to pick out, meaning a trip to the hospital, this could cost you a pretty penny just because you had your BP in your mouth. Also what if this got to the press? They would most likely blow it way out of proportion and provide more bad publicity for us. Yes this scenario is a little extreme but also extremely plausible.

Another thing that could happen if you contracting a parasite. Most parasites are extremely host specific but some will be able to take hold in a human. Have you seen some of the parasites our herps could be carrying. Ill tell you one thing, they're not pretty, and can cause severe illness, resulting in more expensive medical bills for you.

Now I dont mean to bash on you, and I apologize if I come off that way, but there are many things to comment in this thread and I feel like i needed too, for your safety and for your herps safety.

Anybody ever wonder if there's a club somewhere or maybe a league, where just for fun, or maybe for asspoints, members come here, or to other sites, and instigate?

I mean really, did any of you take this seriously?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Anybody ever wonder if there's a club somewhere or maybe a league, where just for fun, or maybe for asspoints, members come here, or to other sites, and instigate?

I mean really, did any of you take this seriously?

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I was part of one of these sites a while back, LUElinks, an offshoot of LUE from gamefaqs. A lot of people would get together and just go out and be jerks at deserving sites (for instance there was a website filled with people trying to get AIDS or to infect other people with it, raided them until the server died, and I think the site got shut down).

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

How has no one pointed this out? Haha. A 16 foot argie? I find that impossible to believe. A 10 foot argie is huge for the species, let alone 16 feet.

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I read that and the part about lots of research... and thought, o'tay?

Bruce

Most of you seem like your Breeders
The Boa’s in Question are in Argentina. My Wife is father owns these snakes and they are well above the 7-9 feet like the fact sheet says they are. I will be more than willing to upload photo’s to show these snake are between 12-16 feet long. The facts sheets are not always correct. In fact they give you estimates of normal sizes. The norm size for a grown human adult in Argentina is 5’8 ½ while there are grown adults that stand over 7 feet tall. So you can take your facts sheet and shove it.

How to get Salmonella
People become infected with salmonella by swallowing the bacterium. This can happen from eating contaminated food that has not been completely cooked, or has been contaminated after preparation. Salmonella can also be spread from person to person when an infected individual does not thoroughly wash his or her hands after using the toilet. Health care providers and food handlers who are infected with salmonella can contaminate food during preparation, or while feeding a patient, if their hands have not been washed thoroughly.
(Putting a pet python you your mouth is no different than eating out, yes I may increase chances although it is my risk I take with my PET… )


To redstormlex

I am not a breeder or a hobbyist. I do not plan to become a small business or playing with the pythons DNA by making new morphs. Snake in the wild may not live together but they do have interaction with each other. Putting them in the same cage does not harm them and yes they like being together, I am sure most of you cannot understand that.

Sahara stays in the water because she enjoys it. We have a 55 gallon tank one side is always 93-95 and the other side of the tank is about 85 degree’s which is where the water , and one of 2 hide boxes are located. She has her choices of where to go. Samara hardly ever goes in the water…

I appreciate your concern about my health. I do not see this a bash, I see this as us having 2 different opinions.

It amazes me that people are never willing to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong.

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Most of you seem like your Breeders

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I'm not sure what your point is? But most of the membership here are not breeders, they are pet owners just like you.

Does being a breeder somehow de-legitimize our comments? Or perhaps we have far more experience with a larger control group of behaviors?

For what it's worth, I have both captive hatched (what you called WC) and captive bred animals. There's no discernable difference in behavior between the two. I've got a few CH that are smaller at the same age as some of my CBB and vice versa.

I don't breed on a large enough level that it really matters to me if the average pet owner buys from me or a pet store. What does matter to me as someone passionate about these animals is that someone get a great pet and that this site is here to help them accomplish caring for their animals successfully so that they can get to know and love their animals as I do mine.

I still want to know WHY you put your snake's head in your mouth. :confused:

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Most of you seem like your Breeders
The Boa’s in Question are in Argentina. My Wife is father owns these snakes and they are well above the 7-9 feet like the fact sheet says they are. I will be more than willing to upload photo’s to show these snake are between 12-16 feet long. The facts sheets are not always correct. In fact they give you estimates of normal sizes. The norm size for a grown human adult in Argentina is 5’8 ½ while there are grown adults that stand over 7 feet tall. So you can take your facts sheet and shove it.

How to get Salmonella
People become infected with salmonella by swallowing the bacterium. This can happen from eating contaminated food that has not been completely cooked, or has been contaminated after preparation. Salmonella can also be spread from person to person when an infected individual does not thoroughly wash his or her hands after using the toilet. Health care providers and food handlers who are infected with salmonella can contaminate food during preparation, or while feeding a patient, if their hands have not been washed thoroughly.
(Putting a pet python you your mouth is no different than eating out, yes I may increase chances although it is my risk I take with my PET… )


To redstormlex

I am not a breeder or a hobbyist. I do not plan to become a small business or playing with the pythons DNA by making new morphs. Snake in the wild may not live together but they do have interaction with each other. Putting them in the same cage does not harm them and yes they like being together, I am sure most of you cannot understand that.

Sahara stays in the water because she enjoys it. We have a 55 gallon tank one side is always 93-95 and the other side of the tank is about 85 degree’s which is where the water , and one of 2 hide boxes are located. She has her choices of where to go. Samara hardly ever goes in the water…

I appreciate your concern about my health. I do not see this a bash, I see this as us having 2 different opinions

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Again, so many things to comment on.

First, my information is not from just fact sheets for argies. I have owned an argie and have talked with many hobbyist and breeders that own argies. A 16 foot argie is unprecidented. Let alone 5. If they are this big it sounds like a case of over feeding. Id love to see pictures of these boas.

Now about contracting salmonella. Eating anything you run the risk of contracting some illness. But do you know why we eat? To survive. We dont need to have our herps bodies in our mouths, especially when many of them will sit in their own fecal matter or urine and urates.

Just do a search on parasites that our herps carry. Even a perfectly healthy herp can harbor dormant parasites that could possibly kill you.

And you are a hobbyist. You've joined the hobby of keeping reptiles. Whether you have 1 or 1000 your in the hobby. You make it seem like breeders who are creating new morphs are playing with genes in a bad way. These tweeks are naturally occuring. We dont feed them anything, inject anything, or do any kind of splicing to create these morphs. These morphs are there in the underlying genes.

Keeping them in the same cage can harm them! Have they been properly sexed? Do you know for sure you have 2 females? Having a male and female constantly together can have ill-effects on the female.

They do not enjoy being together. They are not social animals! Im sorry but you are completely wrong on this matter. How can you tell they enjoy it? Snuggling? Cuddling? If this is what you see, then thats competition to thermoregulate and can again have ill-effects on the snakes.

We can't understand that they enjoy being together? Why not?

Im disagreeing with it because science tells us that they dont enjoy it. I am not claiming there is any study, but the higher brain function in ball pythons is nothing compared to most mammals. They act on instinct, they do not respond to pleasure.

Now to your husbandry. Why so hot? 95 for basking is pretty high, especially when they have nowhere to cool down. Your cool side is 85? With a 95 hot side it should be 78-80. Your one is probaly in the water bowl all the time because she is trying to cool off. Also how are you measuring your temps, and how are you acheiving the temps? Glass aquariums are the worst enclosures to achieve proper husbandry in. Glass does not keep in the heat, and without cover on the top such as tinfoil or plastic wrap humidity goes out the door. How many hides do you have in the enclosure? With two snakes I would recommend 4-6 hides. And with two adult females, a 55 gallon is very small. Most hobbyist and breeders keep adult females in tubs or a cages around 3 feet long by 2 feet wide. I know a 55 gallon is no where close to that. Two females should be in a 4x2 at least.

Thats all I can think of for now. I hope you slightly change your husbandry for the sake of your herps.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

It amazes me that people are never willing to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong.

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It's a group of people that Bertrand Russel describes as the "instinctive men" in "The Value of Philosophy." They only accept ideas that strengthen their own views and reject anything that goes against what they believe. As people get older, it seems, a lot of us become "instinctive" and are unwilling to accept new thoughts that go against our habitually defined beliefs. It takes a lot of effort to remind yourself that you may be wrong and to accept criticism from others.

However I believe both sides in this argument are acting dogmatically about their views, both sides are currently butting heads and neither seems willing to accept that this is currently working for the other group or that the other group isnt going to give in to their own views.

I think everyone needs to just back down and agree to disagree (even if you walk away thinking the other party is idiotic) as long as we all just step down and walk away, this isnt an argument that either side will win.

Apologies if this rapidly becomes tl;dr, there is so much I wish to respond to.

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When we have captive break pythons they have a weaker immune system and a higher risk of inbreeding. While wild caught pythons are less likely to be inbreeded and they have a stronger immune system.

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Funny, but from the limited number of wild caught/captive hatched snakes versus captive bred snakes I've known, the opposite is true. I had a wild caught snake in college, and the poor thing arrived massively dehydrated and totally infested with those awful flat-bodied reptile ticks. He also had mites from being housed with infested animals. Later on, he required regular de-worming for a recurring issue of internal parasites. I have probably spent more on his vet care in the three years I owned him (before finally selling him) than I have in the last year with ALL OF MY CONSTRICTORS COMBINED, all of whom might I add are bred by reputable breeders.

Secondly, why is inbreeding a problem? Inbreeding and linebreeding do not cause issues...they merely accentuate the traits of the animal(s) in question. If the animal has a recessive or minor flaw, the flaw becomes much greater and in starker contrast in the offspring...whereas if the animal is really spectacular somehow, it accentuates all those good traits in the offspring. Crappy breeders who don't know how to cull their breeding stock perpetuate the myth than inbreeding somehow harms animals. In fact, well-used, inbreeding/linebreeding can create a strain of utterly perfect animals.

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My wild caught python will let me cover her head and put her head in my mouth.

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And here I thought I was a risk-taker by allowing my constrictors to sit on my shoulders or even coil around my neck. HOLY CRAP. Why would you DO that??? Cuteness factor versus SALMONELLA, dude. I don't care if your pythons look like legless persian kittens, no ammount of cute would ever get my snakes near much less IN my mouth!!!!

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The Wild caught will never miss a meal while my captive breed is very picky.

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My wild caught python was a terrible eater. He would prey-reject for MONTHS ON END and then he'd only eat, say...a single live mouse, never pre-killed or f/t, and if it was a mouse of the wrong colour (seriously, he wouldn't touch tan mice, only brown or white!) he'd ignore it. One mouse every few months for a three-and-a-half foot long python is not enough, and I hated feeding live. Everyone I've known who has wild caught OR captive hatched had the same kind of issues.

In contrast, all my pythons I own now are bred by responsible breeders (on that note, I can't say enough good things about Russ Lawson's snakes!) and ALL of them are great eaters, they all eat f/t and they eat with a will. All I have to do is show them a mouse or rat (depending on the size of the snake of course) and they go nuts, strike-constrict-NOM. They are all at such a nicer weight than my wild boy EVER was, too. Not too fat but nice and chunky like a real Ball should be.

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P.S. Why would you want to put your snakes head in your mouth??? You know they eats rats with that mouth right?

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................dang, I hadn't even been thinking about that. EW. Salmonella + rat = VILE.

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These are not social creatures and when people think they are "cuddling" or "snuggling" they are actually competing for the same spot to thermoregulate.

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Far too many people anthropomorphosize their pets, assigning them emotions and thoughts they never actually have. People see them "cuddling" and since humans like and need close physical contact once in a while, we assume our snakes do too. Unless of course we have the ability to research the specifics of the species we're keeping and realize they are not social animals and not actually "cuddling" at all. :rolleyes:

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Putting them in the same cage does not harm them

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Constant stress can drop an animal's immune system. It can also lead to prey rejection and if one snake gets too pushy, they can indeed harm each other. Just because they haven't been too overly harmed YET doesn't mean it isn't a potential disaster.

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Glass aquariums are the worst enclosures to achieve proper husbandry in. Glass does not keep in the heat, and without cover on the top such as tinfoil or plastic wrap humidity goes out the door.

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AMEN. I switched to tubs and have never looked back. No more stuck sheds from fluctuating humidity, no more temperature gradients beyond stupidity, and sooooooo so so much easier to clean. The latter is especially nice since one of my pythons like to turn his tub into a poo-smeared swamp on a regular basis.

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I think everyone needs to just back down and agree to disagree (even if you walk away thinking the other party is idiotic) as long as we all just step down and walk away, this isnt an argument that either side will win.

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Ironically I haven't seen much open hostility or name-calling, or anything over-the-top...unless you count the rather understandable tide of "OMG SNAKES IN YOUR MOUTH???? :O". Which...yeah, okay, that's just vile. Sorry.