Spontaneous Pigment Loss

OK, so another thread on here got me thinking ...

You know how ball pythons sometimes do that thing where they lose what appears to be absolutely ALL of their brown pigment, and end up going from normal to looking like the world's best axanthic in just one shed?

That happened to this girl, for example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...EngimaGirl.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ngimaGirl2.jpg


The brown on her head and back is what's left of her pigment, not stuck shed or a stain although it does look like one.

At any rate, conventional wisdom is that this phenomenon is due to some sort of metabolic stress, or is a random event, and is not genetic.

However, the ONLY morph ball python I have ever read or heard of this happening to is the spider ball.

Now, I'm not suggesting that it is at all a reproduceable trait, but it just got me curious.

Has anyone ever had a ball python do this? If so, what morph (if any) was it?

Also, how long did it (the decreased pigmentation) last?

img ball, not genetic iirc

never heard of this happening only in spiders, in fact ive only ever seen it happen in normals

pretty sure the transformation goes on for a few shed cycles after that initial color wash

just google img ball

I have also only heard of it happening in spiders and normals.. but maybe that's because I think maybe I've only seen it posted here for a single incident with a single spider.

One of our Orange Hypo lost part of her pigmentation this spring, she is regaining her colors slowly.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/galler...m/Hypo4_1_.jpg

That looks so wild! I wonder what causes it?

The IMG (increasing melanin gene) is supposedly very complex, but is genetic. They're still working it out. It is not a simple recessive, co-dom, or dominant. (We tend to think that these are the only possibilities, but they are not).

Sometimes spontaneous pigment loss just happens.

Sometimes it is IMG. When it is IMG, look for the animal to regain pigment slowly over time, and then continue to gain more black pigment, with an overall increasing black speckling (see 'Dirty Joe'). Hence, increasing melanin.

Occasionally IMG snakes are hatched looking axanthic, then develop color and increase melanin, while other times they will shed out spontaneously at some random point in their life, and then increase melanin from there.

Ball pythons are full of surprises. :)

I saw this happen to a Mojave a month or so ago. It was pretty awesome!

I know nothing more, sadly... I wonder if that Mojo has shed since? I'd have loved to have gotten an update.

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Originally Posted by RegiusCo

One of our Orange Hypo lost part of her pigmentation this spring, she is regaining her colors slowly.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/galler...m/Hypo4_1_.jpg

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that looks like a blue ghost. also some butterscotch ghost turn out like that too

So I'm noticing these are all females, and I seem to recall the spider was, too. Could this be partly a hormonal thing? Like the equivalent of a hormonal blue green tree python?

Someone posted a spider on here maybe a year ago that went through this ( I cant find the thread).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RegiusCo

One of our Orange Hypo lost part of her pigmentation this spring, she is regaining her colors slowly.

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Dude... if you weren't an honest person (which I assume you are), you could totally sell that as a new *insert made-up morph name* for like $20K! :D I don't know what causes this phenomenon, but it sure does make them look sweet for a while.

Link to that old thread on pigment loss: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...r+pigmentation

Original pictures aren't showing anymore, but there are some later in the thread - and it really looks like an axanthic spider. Very cool! The thread is interesting anyway, so I suggest giving it a read.

Here's the one about the mojave: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=mojave

Really frickin' cool!

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Originally Posted by loonunit

So I'm noticing these are all females, and I seem to recall the spider was, too. Could this be partly a hormonal thing? Like the equivalent of a hormonal blue green tree python?

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In this girl's case, that would kinda sorta make sense as she had laid about a month (? have to check with my friend on that) before. However, I had another one do a similar thing earlier last year that was actually a young male. His was slightly different, though:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...manewshed5.jpg


I think that perhaps the reason this female looks so "ghost-y" while he had more of a high-contrast look could be because she was a "burgundy" before, with less black pigment to begin with.

I had read that it was a metabolic stress thing ... I could hypothesize that it happens if a sufficiently stressful event happens to the snake while it's synthesizing new pigment for its next shed cycle. But that doesn't explain why it ONLY happens to the brown pigment and not the black. I also don't know enough about the exact physiology of shedding and pigment synthesis to carry that hypothesis too far ... :rolleyes: Time to crack open some textbooks, I think ...

For those who mentioned IMG, I had thought that the snake only ever got darker, not lighter ... Am I wrong? Do IMGs sometimes start out normal, blanch out and then darken up from there? :confused:

Ill chime in here...The above article had some interesting info. I dont know of this will prove out to be anything at all but here is a pic of my male bee that is doin this now. He has been like this for about 3 months thru a few sheds and it seems to be getting more pronounced rather than goin back to normal.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2mnfbic.jpg

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Originally Posted by bones93

Ill chime in here...The above article had some interesting info. I dont know of this will prove out to be anything at all but here is a pic of my male bee that is doin this now. He has been like this for about 3 months thru a few sheds and it seems to be getting more pronounced rather than goin back to normal.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2mnfbic.jpg

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That Bee looks AWESOME!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bones93

Ill chime in here...The above article had some interesting info. I dont know of this will prove out to be anything at all but here is a pic of my male bee that is doin this now. He has been like this for about 3 months thru a few sheds and it seems to be getting more pronounced rather than goin back to normal.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2mnfbic.jpg

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wow
since some people have snakes that are like that, wouldn't it suck if someone tried to use it as a scam?? sell their normal as an axanthic... :O:(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bones93

Ill chime in here...The above article had some interesting info. I dont know of this will prove out to be anything at all but here is a pic of my male bee that is doin this now. He has been like this for about 3 months thru a few sheds and it seems to be getting more pronounced rather than goin back to normal.

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Actually it was your bee that made me think of it :) (Well, that and the fact that my female normal changed color a last week, ha!)

It does seem to me as though spiders are still a bit overrepresented, though I do appreciate those who posted links/pictures of other morphs undergoing the change ... So it's definitely not just spiders!

Bones, did anything "unusual" happen to your snake before he started changing colors? Any bad feeders or feeders from a different source maybe?

I dont think so. He has been eating ASFs from the same person I always get them from. I plan on breeding him this season so maybe ill hold a few back and see if this is something that maybe passes on. I hope he stays like this LOL

My girlfriend came to me about 2 weeks ago and said "what the hell happened to the bee?" I got all scared and was like "what do you mean?" LOL she said she thought I bought a new snake until she looked on the feeding card

Few pics of a pinstripe I picked up at daytona... Supposedly axanthic pin..

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...5&d=1282777756

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...8&d=1282777756

Here's a picture I took of a spider and a pastel of Bob Clarks in 04 that did the same thing
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...4/DSCN1403.jpg

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Originally Posted by RegiusCo

One of our Orange Hypo lost part of her pigmentation this spring, she is regaining her colors slowly.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/galler...m/Hypo4_1_.jpg

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Not going to lie, this little guy looks sweet like this!

I have 5 or 6 snakes that have lost pigment overnight. With mine I have no doubt it was a reaction to a prey item. Incomplete digestion -- and in 2 of mine they had an oily stool that acted almost like a corrosive acid. These animals NEVER got most of their color back -- some none of their color returned. These guys are completely healthy in every way. Could be a coincidence, but I have never had a normal lose their color -- always some kind of morph. :confused:

I will try and take pics of an adult Bumble Bee and a Pastel PH Hypo that HAD quite a bit of black wash. Not anymore!!!!!!! They look like the best Fire Bee/Fire Pastel you have ever seen. :O I have never considered selling them. Even being honest about what they were NOT I would feel weird about it. :oops:

Bill,
If you can post pics of the bee I would appreciate it. My bee just shed again and he still looks like that and his eyes are even black. No more green pastel eyes. I love the way he looks but if he looks better than he did as a baby when he goes back to normal hes gonna be a smoker! Have you noticed any of your bees offspring having this trait?

Here is a girl I bought as a really nice looking axanthic import subadult back in the day. She quickly started to get more dark flecking and more yellow but has stayed like this for several years now. Unfortunately I don't know what she started out looking like. I never did see the stuck shed looking pigment on the back and she has an in shed type glow to her lower sides so not sure if she is one of these changers or something else. I saved back a really nice looking pastel son just in case she is genetic but she didn't go this year. Not holding my breath as it seems most likely she is a changer; either one that changed in the wild or that just got the import label as she changed hands back when such things where big money.

http://snakemorphs.com/images/F01GAFR_med.jpg

We got this girl a little while ago and were told that she too lost her pigment. So far she has not changed. We are planning on throwing our Fire and YB male her way shortly. Currently shes about 3200g.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_1946.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_1959.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_1987.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

I have 5 or 6 snakes that have lost pigment overnight. With mine I have no doubt it was a reaction to a prey item. Incomplete digestion -- and in 2 of mine they had an oily stool that acted almost like a corrosive acid. These animals NEVER got most of their color back -- some none of their color returned. These guys are completely healthy in every way. Could be a coincidence, but I have never had a normal lose their color -- always some kind of morph. :confused:

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That's exactly what happened to the smaller guy that I posted pics of. It was a batch of excessively fatty (retired breeder) mice, and a few snakes got steatorrhea (oily poop) because of them. He's the only one that changed color, though.

The female in my original post never had any unusual prey items, and no unusual bowel movements associated with the color-change event. In addition, she is getting her color back now ... But not the way it was when she started. Before, she was a light "burgundy" type of deal. Now she's starting to look just like RDR's Dirty Joe ...

Interestingly, the kid I got her from has a male that did the same thing about a month later. It almost made me wonder if it was something feed-related except that I can't for the life of me think of how or what ... I know where he gets his feeder rats and they're fed a lab diet and culled if they aren't in perfect health. Neither one of us is getting our hopes up very high that this is genetic, but they're probably going to be bred together just in case ... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Genefreak339

Few pics of a pinstripe I picked up at daytona... Supposedly axanthic pin..

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...5&d=1282777756

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That snake is ridiculously awesome-looking ...... But are you implying that you bought it as an axanthic pin and are now doubting? :O

I am not doubting as I got him from the daytona show and I would imagine that most breeders there are reputable. Im just saying he was sold to me as an axanthic pin but I really think there is something else going on with him. He looks just like jarreds lemon blast axanthic (not implying that mine is one). Definitely going to be doing some dinking around with him. And thanks for the compliment!
-Michael

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

That snake is ridiculously awesome-looking ...... But are you implying that you bought it as an axanthic pin and are now doubting? :O

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_1946.jpg

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That's what my normal girl looks like. Almost as golden as yours. She darkened lately, though. I wouldn't say she lost her pigment, though. We did recently switch to frozen mice...

The het pied I bought hadn't eaten since January, and since he started eating lately, his color's really brightened up. I could be that or the humidity, but Idk what he looked like or what his conditions were before.

So, I suppose food might have at least something to do with it?