Why all loans should be drawn up in print.

Ok this is a situation I am going through. About a year ago I sent a Pinstripe out for a breeding loan to be bred with a Desert male. The breeder was a friend of a friend and I was fine with the terms. In this deal I was guaranteed a male Desert no mater what. I understood the value differences and even stated I didn't even want half the clutch but was offered it anyways. Sometime in Dec. I was informed that the Desert wasn't locking up with the Pinstripe and I was given alternative male that could be put with her. I think at the time those males were Pastave, Pewter, and Super Sable. Now I had 2 out of 3 of those animals here and I didn't have any want to have any Sables or Sable Pins so I said no to that male. I was told at that time that the male Desert was breeding many females and I would still get my male Desert so I agreed to him breeding the Pin to other males, just not the Super Sable. Then a few months later I was told she has successfully bred with a Pewter, Pastave, Pastel Lesser Woma, and the Desert. Now is where is get a little hazy, the breeder started having Family problems and was very hard to get ahold of and at times seemed to be dodging me and others he had dealings with. After some emails and messages from one of his friends he finally contacted me and let me know everything was cool and explained how the last few months in his personal life had been hectic and I understood. Since then he has been in constant contact. The next major event in the deal came when I got a text saying he had 5 Deserts in the egg so I got my Desert. I was so excited I mean I wouldn't even have gotten into this morph for a while because of there cost, nut now I knew I had one. I saw pictures a few weeks later and asked him about them and I was informed that he had 1.4, sweet theres my male, in my head I was like when can I come get him lol. Well that wasn't the case, now the problem was the breeder had over worked his Desert male and another male and they had died. He couldn't let the only male go to me. At this point I wanted to scream I mean what part of "your guaranteed a male Desert" is true when the breeder keeps having problems that then become my problems. Ok so I want out of this deal he hasn't held up his end of the bargain so lets salvage something. Now mind you by his own admission I am still owed a male Desert, half of her clutch which as of last month is 4 eggs, and my Pin female. I had hinted to the fact that I wanted to just get out and trade for stuff to just call it the end, I was hinting to get a female Desert so I can say I at least am in that project. His ideas on it were he would give me a female Pewter, female Pastel Butter, and a female Lesser and if his buddy hatched out a male Calico that to, or something of equal value. Now here is where it gets fun. He will do all that for not getting me my "guaranteed" male Desert, for my half of the Pins clutch, and now he wants my Pin female. I tell him let me think about it, I mean I did just wanna get out of the deal but in what breeding loan does the owner of a proven female lose his female. Ok a few days pass I get advice form my peers and get yelled at by Liza for even considering trading off our oldest BP the one that started it all, I decided that was not an option. The breeder then says through text (who even responds to emails with a text anyways) that he never promised me a male Desert if his Desert didn't sire the clutch. Now I am at wits end, I would hope that with our mutual friend vouching for him he would want to do the right thing, but only time will tell. Now this is the reason why you should always draw up paperwork on any breeding loan, cover all foreseeable problems and have a back up plan. Word out exactly what you expect and know who you are doing the loan with.

Thanks for reading my giant paragraph and I hope you learn something from it.

Bummer man.

Stick to your guns. Get your girl, insist on your male, and let me know if you can use a guy like me to help you get your due.

And yes, if it isn't Heather, get it in writing.

Tim,thats wrong Bro he owes you the male point blank.If he does not give you that male i would post his info so others will avoid him

Dang Tim, I'd be putting my foot down, You are owed that male and it should be given to you. Hang in there bud and make it happen!

Eff that dude.

I know who this clown is.

Hard times or no hard times. A deal is a DEAL.....

Simple.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

A deal is a DEAL.....

Simple.

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What he said.

that sucks that someone doesn't keep their part of the deal. they are just abusing it now. like everyone else said put your foot down and demand what you deserve and expect, personally i would be knocking on his door.

He worked the desert breeder to death and all he has to show for it is 1.4? Something's way off with this guy.

Stick to your guns, Tim.

Sadly, even if you had a written contract for a breeding loan, and you had to travel to another State to get satisfaction from the courts, and then either pay a lawyer or settle for a limited judgment from a small claims court, which would then be up to you to collect through a writ of garnishment or some other method, it likely wouldn't be worth the effort.
If he's in the area, I would be inclined to offer Wes a percentage to collect the debt.

Just out of curiousity...are you buying that he "worked" the two males to death? If true...it's very sad...

Thats brutal, especially since the female pin holds a kind of sentimetal value to you. A breeder that works multiple males to death in a season, doesn't hold up his word, sounds like a shady guy to me. I'd deffinetly never want to do business with them.

Hopefully he can rectify the situation and give you what you are owed. Goodluck.

That he allegedly worked his male to death is of no consequence to the deal. That is his error, and you are not responsible for paying for his mistake. You are owed a male, nothing less. I would accept nothing less. I hope someone forwards this thread to him so that he can witness a "united front." If he doesn't pony up, post his information.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

Sadly, even if you had a written contract for a breeding loan, and you had to travel to another State to get satisfaction from the courts, and then either pay a lawyer or settle for a limited judgment from a small claims court, which would then be up to you to collect through a writ of garnishment or some other method, it likely wouldn't be worth the effort.
If he's in the area, I would be inclined to offer Wes a percentage to collect the debt.

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Travel expenses and something shiny to go in my rack with the other balls would suffice.

Would it be possible for you to put prices on all the snakes in question?

If the value is > $5,000 you can take him to small claims court. Yes it may not result in you getting everything you wanted but the money could help.

What forms of contact have you been using? Email, phone, text? Do you have some people who can corroborate your side of the story?

A simple draft of legal papers explaining to him that he is being sued might even be enough to get the ball rolling in your favor.

Theft and breach of contract are not small issues.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

Sadly, even if you had a written contract for a breeding loan, and you had to travel to another State to get satisfaction from the courts, and then either pay a lawyer or settle for a limited judgment from a small claims court, which would then be up to you to collect through a writ of garnishment or some other method, it likely wouldn't be worth the effort.
If he's in the area, I would be inclined to offer Wes a percentage to collect the debt.

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Depending on the judgement, he could recoup all expenses including travel costs, legal fees, etc. If it were me I'd proceed with the lawsuit.

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Originally Posted by WebbyD

What forms of contact have you been using? Email, phone, text? Do you have some people who can corroborate your side of the story?

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Good idea. Often emails can prove intent in lieu of a contract.

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If he's in the area, I would be inclined to offer Wes a percentage to collect the debt.

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I can't help but wonder if Wes is the Luca Brasi figure or the Don Corleone figure who is going to "make them an offer they can't refuse."

:gj:

Guys I appreciate all the responses. I still have faith my our mutual friends faith in him. I will give him time to decide to do the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Royal Morphz

Guys I appreciate all the responses. I still have faith my our mutual friends faith in him. I will give him time to decide to do the right thing.

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I hope everything works out, I really do, but if for some reason it does not and you need to go to court over this issue be VERRY careful on how you go about this.

I know the normal feeling of wanting to threaten the person with the lawsuit, etc, blah blah blah, but do NOT do this!

Also be careful with how often and when you attempt to contact him. Harassment lawsuits can be filed against you... :/

If things go sour I would simply file papers without saying a word to him until he was legally required to know. Or at most tell him that you will be filing papers against him because the situation thus far has been unresolvable.

The less time he has to prepare the better off you are.

Sadly those days someone’s word does not mean much anymore…………….sad really.

Hope you get the resolution you are looking for Tim

There are times, like now, when I wish I could go play on fauna. I simply can't put my talents to use here and I'd really like to help you out Tim. There have been a couple of others in the recent past who I also wish I could have been of assistance to. Maggie Kimmel in particular.

Anyway, there's this page you guys may not know about. There's a guy here who when you hit him in the head with a board of sufficient size and weight, can take a very subtle hint and make it real.

Wanna help me out, which is nice, but also help others, which is altruistic?

Check this out then:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bring-...4047558?ref=mf

Tim, if you'd like any help, let me know. Maybe some stratigizing can help bring this to the proper conclusion.

I'm sorry Tim to hear about this. I hope it all works out when some of his other clutches hatch. Well I sure hope he has others to hatch.

I have only done one breeder loan, mostly because I'm obsessively compulsive. I like to have all my chickens where they are suppose to be. It just drives me nuts not to be in control.

Thanks everyone and Wes I know you would help me I just hope I wont need that help. I have the feeling that this will work out and that once a good guy always a good guy is a fair assessment of my partner in this loan.

You're right Tim. There are good guys out there. We all make mistakes. Some are quite large and very public. Some not so much.

The thing is, even the big public ones can be made right. EVERYONE knows what right is. You keep your word. You do what you say you'll do. Hopefully this is just a stressed out guy who made a dumb mistake and will now step up and be a man, not an ed clark.

It's NOT ed clark is it? Because if it is, my expenses just went wayyyyyyyy up.

Sorry to hear this Tim :( I hope it all works out for you bro!!! It is really messed up you were guaranteed the male but because he killed his two breeder males you get screwed over something that wasn't even your fault.

Sorry to hear about this crappy situation, any updates?

We should know on Thursday.

Okay cool, keep us updated

dang that is harsh i can see both sides of your situation but a deal is a deal even if it means leaving himself with-out his prized male he should man up and keep his part of the deal. (it wasn't your fault he over did his male now if it was just to your female only and his male died i could see keeping the only male to replace what was lost but as you stated that he told you he over did his male that was his fualt not yours)just relax it could be a whole lot worse if i was you I'd go get your female and just cut your loses while your female is still alive. next time get it all in writing(i'm no fan of sending my babies out to somebody i never met or know and even if i did i would still have a problem with it. how is it with him saying all the breedings he did with his male that he only got 1 male and 4 females. i saw where you said he told you he breed his male to many females so he should have more then 1 male even if it aint the color morph you want he still has to have more then 1 male


I've asked this question over at mvp forum cause they just to me seem to throw there babies away to get half a clutch from a high end male. not always the female green tree python dies but it does happen from time to time as i'm sure it does with other species of boas and pythons. to me any deal made up should be fair to both people like this. most over there say it is a gamble well when we are suppose to be professional breeders yes we know the risks but that doesn't mean any of us should loose a pet if it is out on loan as any babies born from the breeding should first and foremost replace what was lost
here's how i think a loan thing should look like or very close to it to cover any event of lost animal by either party involved

OK i will loan you my 95% white piebald. anything happens to male or female in breeding they get replaced first.(from the clutch or who ever has them in possession at time of death (both parents should be seen by vet prior to breeding) then if both parents make it threw breeding fine clutch is split to how ever it is decided upon what ever % each person gets. person who loaned should get first pick then other person then back to person loaning and so on and so on

also forgot to say in first post and went past the 10 minute time limit.




my gut says he will do his best to make it right with you maybe if nothing else you say all you wanted from the breeding was a male of such and such color morph maybe hint to him to sell the babies and buy and send you a male of the morph you want as thats all you want right just a male believe you said dessert (could be wrong about color morph if so just input the color morph you want) then you get your male unrelated to your female for future breeding and he gets to keep his male then both of you will be happy


i don't see no need to go getting people to go to his house cause that will cause more problems then it is worth yes these baby color morphs are costly but not worth the problems of lets say you talk to member y who goes out beats his butt and takes his baby male and your female he goes and calls the cops who arrests member y who says i was just doing it to get what was owed to you so then the cops come put you in cuffs also all over a snake. yes a costly snake but still just a snake and that is something with the way things are going for the snake keepers in America is just not needed very bad publicity that could hurt us all.

got to rember as you said he is having family problems which means he is very stressed give him some time to get his family issues taken care of (wouldn't leave your female with him though) and just let him know when he gets a male of the color morph you wanted to send it to you dont go adding to his stress as stressed people do stupid stuff.

Any resolution to this, I sure hope so? Keep your chin up. :gj:

Connie the resolution was resolved to a point I got my original pin female and this little hellion
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...DesertF103.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...DesertF102.jpg
My only gripe is the original deal was for a male but at least its a Desert and she is a super eater.

Well that sucks, but at least it doesn't blow as well.

Glad you got it worked out.

She looks.... pleasant! haha I'd deal with the nipping if I could have an animal like that in my collection. Deserts are awesome! Don't see too many around.

I have one that's especially nippy, just full out trying to bite me all the time! Still young though, hoping she grows out of it! Very nice snake! The one I'm talking about is a very good eater as well, so maybe it comes with the territory.

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Originally Posted by Royal Morphz

Connie the resolution was resolved to a point I got my original pin female and this little hellion
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...DesertF102.jpg
My only gripe is the original deal was for a male but at least its a Desert and she is a super eater.

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