Have you guys read this sad IBD story?

http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html

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Melissa Kaplan's
Herp Care Collection
Last updated December 18, 2009
Boid Inclusion Body Disease

One Herper's Experience

©1995 DeAnn Schott



Indiana was our first snake. She was a Ball Python. We bought her five years ago. And, as my love of snakes grew, so did my boid zoo. Three years ago my daughter began working for a local pet shop. Often, people would literally drop off unwanted snakes -- she would find them in a sack on the counter and nothing else. The owner of the store did not want the castoffs because they were usually undernourished, sick and full of mites. I could not let them just die, so ended up taking them all home. I had my "pet" tanks set up in my daughter's room and quarantine tanks were in the garage. I worked with my vet to de-worm them and bring them around. (I worked out a barter system with my vet --- I would wash dogs and cats all day Saturday in exchange for vet services.) As soon as my vet gave the O.K., I adopted them all out to good, prescreened homes. I still check on them and, I am proud to say, have placed over 20 snakes and they are all doing well. Ball Pythons and Red Tails were and still are our favorites. I've kept up with everything I could find about boids and thought I was knowledgeable about boids and the diseases to look out for. Until October 1995.

I first saw her at a reptile shop in July 1995 and it was love at first sight. I had never seen a melanistic Ball Python before and she was simply gorgeous. I was in the store looking for another Ball to add to our family of four, and I was smitten with the amel. I could not afford the $400 price tag, so I asked about any new juvenile CB's they might have in stock. They had just received and processed a huge shipment. We (my daughter and I) were led to a huge room in the back and the shelves were filled with plastic shoe boxes. All contained baby Balls - there were hundreds of them. This particular shop knew us and allowed us to take our time looking at all the Balls. But, something was wrong with these - terribly wrong. These babies had many problems: skinny, disoriented, stargazing, head-bobbing, random striking, rattling in their chests, etc. I was told they were in "shock" from the shipment. We didn't buy the excuse, but thanked them for their time and left.

I returned to the shop in September and was surprised to find that the amel Ball was still there. I found the owner and asked about the fate of the juvenile Balls I had seen in July. "All sold." I then asked the owner if I could see the amel. He had a huge Red Tail wrapped around his torso and he strolled in the back, grabbed the amel and handed her to me. I examined her closely. No mouth rot. Nice and fat. No obvious injuries. No rattling. No mites. Very friendly and not head shy. How much? I was quoted a much lower price than the first time and said I'd think about it. I returned to the shop the next day and bought her. I named her Jade. I quarantined her from my other four Balls for six weeks and kept a close eye on my new "favorite." She was great, ate well and seemed to be a very happy snake who enjoyed being held and loved basking in her water bowl. I introduced her to her new family after her quarantine and all five looked great and did well together.

In October I noticed that the two juvenile balls (from the same clutch and about six months old) were rattling when I picked them up. I checked their mouths and they were clean. So, I promptly took them to my vet and she started them on Baytril injections for 10 days straight. I put them in the quarantine cage when I brought them home. The Baytril seemed to do the trick and I was relieved we caught it in time. But, I still kept the two quarantined from the rest, just to make sure, for another three weeks. Everybody was eating and defecating regularly. Just about the time the three weeks was up, I noticed one of them acting strangely. He was writhing in the cage and seemed disoriented. I quickly picked him up, listened for rattling and heard nothing, but noticed how skinny he suddenly was. How could this be? He had just eaten two mice three days earlier! Then, I noticed his eyes had a wrinkle across each of them. This was baffling, because there was plenty of fresh water and the humidity and heat were exactly where they should be. So, I opened his mouth for a look. It was disgusting. Full of yellow mucous and rotten flesh. I was horrified. I quickly picked up the other and found she had full-blown mouth rot and wrinkles across her eyes, too. How could this be? They were perfect just 72 hours earlier when I picked them up to feed them and showed no signs of distress when I "bed checked" them the evening before! I rushed both to my vet and she, too, was mystified. I set up a tank at my vet's so she could monitor the situation. She did a lung wash and cultured each, but both cultures came back negative. The Baytril was not working this time. She tried Gentocin, but, before we could find out if it would work, Zeus and Medusa died. Sadly, Zeus's mouth rot actually ate away his tongue. I was devastated. My vet had done everything humanely possible to save those two for me, and I was in awe of her dedication and forever in her emotional debt. She told me to keep a close eye on the remaining three Balls and asked if I housed the Red Tails with or near the Balls. I said that they were in the same room, but definitely not the same cage. She suggested moving the Red Tails to another room, just in case it was an airborne disease. She then told me that she had been recently treating a lot of similar cases in boids and all from the same reptile house and all the pythons were dying, whereas the boas seemed to hang on a bit better, although most seemed to wither away, too. She was stumped. I went home, sterilized the quarantine cage, then sterilized the Ball and Red Tail cages, too. I put the Red Tails in another room. Then I took a long bath and cried bucket of tears over my loss.

November. Four weeks later Indiana, our beloved first Ball, started rattling. I took her to my vet's. She, too, dies after 30 days of valiant efforts by my vet to save her. My daughter is also crying buckets of tears with me.

December. Another four weeks. Now it's Jade's turn. She's a fighter. She wants to live and I want her to live. I visited her daily and give her pep talks. I can't cry anymore. I'm emotionally drained. What is this thing?

January. The fourth Ball, Ivy, now has succumbed to the same disease.

March 1996. Jade finally died March 8. She lasted the longest and I really thought that maybe she'd win. I go back to the shop where I bought her and question the owner. Has he heard of any new diseases or seen anything? He denies knowing about anything and says he would have heard about it on his "new" monitoring system. I asked him what he meant, figuring he's going to show me a computer system with some fancy herp software that connects people in the business. Wrong. He proudly shows me how he had recently had his shop completely wired for sound and how he can sit in his office and, with a flick of a switch, listen in on prospective buyer's conversations, to what's going on in the back room, the cash register, etc. I am not impressed and ask if it's legal to listen in on customers and/or employees like that. He says he can do whatever he wants because he's the owner. I tell him I really don't care, I just want to find out what killed my Balls. He assures me that my snakes didn't get this from him because his vet "checks all incoming shipments and would let him know immediately if there was an epidemic or something." I tell him I didn't see any DVM when the July shipment came in and that I did not have this problem until I brought Jade home. He's getting tired of my line of questioning and says he overheard me ruining a sale for him while I was waiting to talk to him and he didn't appreciate it. (I was approached, while in his store, by a prospective buyer who asked for my advice about a snake for her son. She was looking at a juvenile Reticulated Python. I was honest with her and told her that the Retic was a bad choice for a kid and why.) I looked at him in disbelief, turned around, walked out and haven't spoken to him since. However, I have run into some of his ex employees at herp shows and have heard horror stories. I wish I knew then what I know now.

May 10, 1996. It's been eight weeks since Jade died and our last ball, India, a female striped, is rattling, has wrinkles across her eyes and has suddenly stopped eating. I take her to my vet who, again, is trying her best. I decide to surf the 'net to find out if anyone know about this "Jim Henson-type pneumonia" (as we've come to call it) and receive a sympathetic reply from Melissa Kaplan who tells me it sounds suspiciously like Boid Inclusion Body Disease. Huh? IBD? What's that? It sounds vaguely familiar...I think I read about it somewhere, sometime... Melissa and I send several emails back and forth and I share what she's told me with my vet. My heart sinks as I realize my Balls exhibit all the symptoms of IBD, as did the shipment of juvenile Balls I saw last summer. I know, from first hand knowledge, that this store's employees never washed their hands between handling snakes, did not sterilize cages before transferring snakes from one cage to the other, sold sick snakes, etc. They broke all the rules. My vet says that if India dies, she will necropsy her. We did not necropsy the other four. Now I wish I had. No sign of IBD in my Red Tails...yet. I'm scared silly I'll lose all my snakes to this insidious disease.

May 24, 1996. India has also died. My vet thought she was rallying and gradually turned her heat back up to the mid-80's, from the mid-70's. By decreasing the heat, my vet slowed down India's system so she could get the antibiotics into her. But, increasing the heat seemed to make the virus more active. My vet said that India was literally full of mucous overnight and she found India on her back in her cage, gasping for air. India died choking on her mucous while my vet was trying to aspirate it out. I have now lost five Ball Pythons to IBD and which means over $1,000.00 in livestock and vet bills is gone. But, never mind the lost money, the emotional heartbreak is incalculable. They were our pets and we cared very much for them. My daughter's inconsolable. I've removed India's cage from her room and have tried to take her mind off India's death, but to no avail. I hoped I could find her another Ball to take her mind off of India. But, to make matters worse, we've been advised to wait at least six months before purchasing another Ball Python to make sure all last vestiges of the virus are gone. Please don't let this disease take my Red Tails!

The point of my long dissertation is:

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Know your supplier. I found out yesterday my neighbor is a health inspector. I asked her about this shop and was told it's "famous for receiving diseased shipments." Call your local health inspection department and ask if anything's on file about your supplier.
2.

Keep up with the latest health information, especially IBD.
3.

Quarantine ALL newcomers. And be sure to thorough wash you hands after you handle your snakes and before handling any snakes! No exceptions!
4.

Sterilize all cages.
5.

Pay attention to care sheets and follow them. Keep up with new diseases on the Internet, reptile magazines or a reputable supplier.

There's nothing worse than watching a beloved pet suffer and die, especially if it could have been prevented. Remember the old saying, "forewarned is forearmed." Get forewarned. And, good luck. I sincerely hope that you will not have to endure what I have been fighting for the last seven months. Now, I'm on IBD watch for another six months with my Red Tails. Wish me luck.



Melissa Kaplan comments:
Some people think that if they buy their boid from the breeder or from a reptile specialty store that they will be spared the above experience. Think again. The store DeAnn talks about is a reptile specialty store in Southern California, one that has a good reputation. I am also getting increasing numbers of calls and letters from people who have bought their infected, dying and dead snakes directly from the breeder. Now, while it is possible that these breeders didn't yet realize their boids were infected, there is too much selling of infected hatchlings and adults, snakes that sicken and die of IBD-symptoms within months of purchase, to believe that is so.

Should you let the possibility of IBD put you off getting a boa or python? No. But if you do decide to get one, or another one in addition to ones you may currently have, exercise extreme caution and suspicion when buying, and quarantine them for at least a year or more. Sonoma county wildlife educator Bonnie Cromwell lost several of her boids two years after she took in a boa from someone who could no longer keep it. It turned out that that snake was infected but remained asymptomatic for a long time. It took almost two years for her other boids to begin showing signs, then dying of (or being euthanized due to) IBD.

Many years ago, before we knew a breed rescue existed, my husband and I bought an akita puppy from an akita breeder. She guaranteed in writing that her dogs were free of hip dysplasia, a congenital disorder found in several breed lines. The contract stipulated that if the dog we got developed hip dysplasia, she would give us, for free, another puppy, one of our choosing. Within six months of our getting the puppy, he developed signs of dysplasia and was in fact diagnosed with such by a top orthopedic veterinarian. When we told the breeder, she at first refused to believe it, saying that we must have "done" something to him. When we persisted, she said that we should take it to a vet specialist - and then gave us the name of the very vet we saw. At that point, she capitulated, and gave us the pick of her current litters. Perhaps if buyers of boas and pythons began insisting upon such guarantees from the breeders and pet stores they buy their snakes from, it would put the pressure and responsibility for the spreading this disease (and unethical business practices) right on those most responsible for its rapid proliferation throughout the boid trade.

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Where does it say that IBD was the result of the necropsies?

What the person described could have been one of many snake ailments...........

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My vet says that if India dies, she will necropsy her. We did not necropsy the other four. Now I wish I had. No sign of IBD in my Red Tails...yet. I'm scared silly I'll lose all my snakes to this insidious disease.

May 24, 1996. India has also died. My vet thought she was rallying and gradually turned her heat back up to the mid-80's, from the mid-70's. By decreasing the heat, my vet slowed down India's system so she could get the antibiotics into her. But, increasing the heat seemed to make the virus more active. My vet said that India was literally full of mucous overnight and she found India on her back in her cage, gasping for air. India died choking on her mucous while my vet was trying to aspirate it out. I have now lost five Ball Pythons to IBD

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Most likely IBD was the result considering they said they would do a necropsy, the article is under the heading of Boid Inclusion Body Disease.

Is there any way to know what store she's talking about? I'm in SoCal and I have a feeling I know which store it is. There aren't many reptile-specialty shops with 'hundreds' of bp's in the back in a rack system, and there are far fewer successful enough to afford to wire their whole shop with an evesdropping machine.

I dont believe the actual article says anything about that, however it's from 1995, so that's quite a long time.

Also consider that anywhere that has animals coming in and out has the potential to spread disease, no matter what store you go to there is a risk there (as any one of the animals could be infected, many pet stores are a lot less clean than one would really hope for them to be, etc). As for if that store is still around, it may be or it may not be. If customers found out the store was selling large numbers of animals that were at high risk of disease there is a chance that people would boycott them and the store would go out of business. It's possible this happened (as hundreds of diseased snakes making their way into people's homes would be very bad for business).

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I dont believe the actual article says anything about that, however it's from 1995, so that's quite a long time.

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The store I'm thinking of opened in 1992. I wouldn't at all be surprised if I'm right, I was there lately and lots of snakes were bloody and had open wounds from rats, poopy litter, 2 + sheds in the cage with them, etc. The place makes its sales to naive people and children, likely never to people who know what they're doing.

The story seemed to suggest it was a reputable dealer, not a scuzzy place. Although getting a rep 3 years after being open for selling diseased snakes could very well kill how clean and nice the place is as the people that know what they are doing wouldnt be purchasing there, and it's a lot easier to convince the naive that poo, shed, and scratch covered snakes are pretty much typical no matter what shop you go to ~_~.

Based on the timelines - I don't think it was IBD.

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I quarantined her from my other four Balls for six weeks

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And then all the other balls that got sick - this went on for MONTHS according to her timeline.

It's my understanding that IBD is extremely aggressive in pythons, and that once a python is exposed to it, will kill it in under 30 days.

In fact, like it or not - and probably a dirty little secret, many boa breeders will "test" individuals their collection by housing them with a normal male ball python. If the python survives the 30 day "trial", they conclude that boa is not a carrier of IBD.

It seems awfully strung out to me too, I was always advised that balls died within about a month.. not several months. If she had necropsies done, they would have seen the IBD to begin with, so when did she have the first necropsy? Or possibly testing on liver biopsy? If she never had that done, then I would suspect something else for it to take so very long between snakes, but I guess anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Most likely IBD was the result considering they said they would do a necropsy, the article is under the heading of Boid Inclusion Body Disease.

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My bet would not be IBD. IF the last snake was positive for IBD the boas would have needed to be screened as well.

This came from Anapsid.........enough said.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

It seems awfully strung out to me too, I was always advised that balls died within about a month.. not several months. If she had necropsies done, they would have seen the IBD to begin with, so when did she have the first necropsy? Or possibly testing on liver biopsy? If she never had that done, then I would suspect something else for it to take so very long between snakes, but I guess anything is possible.

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Time of death from IBD varies from snake to snake, species to species. I had two long term captive boas come down with IBD. They were in a room with several pythons species - including a ball.

They were also in a rack with 10 pythons - none of which were infected. These boas were asymptomatic for over five years. The two boas who were diagnosed with it via esophageal biopsies had been mated several times over the years.

So in my very limited experience, it doesn't spread that easy. It takes a definite vector. On the other hand, an RI or other virus can be spread easily through the air.

I had a friend go through an OPMV outbreak and all of his affected snakes went very quickly with amazing amounts of mucous coming out of their mouths in the very final stage.

It could have also been an RI. There are several highly resistant strains out there. That's why it's so important to not administer antibiotics until a culture has been performed.

I can say that I live in Socal and there is a big breeder here who got a rare ball python disease that killed off the majority of his collection. He is still rebuilding it to this day. It wasn't IBD though. Just some rare disease. I don't think he ever knew what it was.

It sounds like the vet treated it wrong anyhow, whatever it was. Most of us here know that you never lower the temperatures on a sick snake--you elevate them slightly. Lowering the temps just to start antibiotics is going to lower the snake's immune system, and with a virus, all the antibiotics are doing is combating secondary infections. So that was exactly the wrong treatment for a viral outbreak.

It could have been IBD, but with the symptoms described, I would put a first guess on OMPV, with improper treatment explaining why there were no survivors at all. But it could also have been one of the other half-dozen deadly bugs (rhabdovirus or reovirus, etc).

Whatever it was, however, was probably not airborne, or the boas would have caught it too.

I read about this from Brian at BHB who followed this persons Myspace blog about it. I believe Brian donated snakes to her when her collection withered away from this disease.

If only i could find the exact blog on this persons page im sure it has more details and comments from MANY wanting to know what the resulting cause of deaths.

It is a sad story.

They were taking in unwanted and neglected snakes and housing them five deep, after only a few weeks of quarantine.
It could have been anything.

I wonder if they ever got a necropsy done on the last Ball to drop.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This came from Anapsid.........enough said.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by rjk890

They were taking in unwanted and neglected snakes and housing them five deep, after only a few weeks of quarantine.

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Five deep? You mean in a 5 slot rack? That just struck my curiosity. Five per bin? Five bins stacked up?

I've never heard of lowering temps on an ill snake either. Slowing their system down would also slow the absorbtion of drugs, as far as I know. Just sounds really sad, and also very odd.

Wow, from reading the story and reading every post so far I've learned quite a lot from this.

I remember reading in the story that the owner of the shop had a Red Tail on his shoulders when he went to go get Jade, so he didn't wash his hands or even put the snake back when he went to get Jade so the person can handle her.

That might've spread something to Jade, but something also could have been in her from being in a shop with a reputation of selling diseased snakes.

All I had to see was,

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Melissa Kaplan's
Herp Care Collection

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And I stopped reading. I wouldn't trust anything found on her site.

What's wrong with her site? I used it extensively like 10 years ago when I was keeping water dragons.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

What's wrong with her site? I used it extensively like 10 years ago when I was keeping water dragons.

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Aside from the plethora of bad information?

Aside from her anti-pet agenda?

Nothing, nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

What's wrong with her site? I used it extensively like 10 years ago when I was keeping water dragons.

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There are people who STILL insist that corn snakes can be fed crickets because of her site. She REALLY doesn't know what she's talking about unless it's an iguana.

I took a peek, and there is nothing on her site about feeding crickets to corn snakes.

I didn't see much to suggest an anti-pet agenda, but of course she has strong opinions on people being prepared before they consider getting a reptile pet--particularly a green iguana, which is one of the more high maintenance and troublesome animals to keep.

Perhaps you're speaking of something that was up in the past. Dunno.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I took a peek, and there is nothing on her site about feeding crickets to corn snakes.

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It's here under natural history: http://www.anapsid.org/corn.html

I've seen people using this as a defense for attempting to feed corns crickets, pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I took a peek, and there is nothing on her site about feeding crickets to corn snakes.

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Quote from her web site.

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While the Elaphes feed on everything ranging from fish to frogs to rodents to mammals, wild Corns start off feeding on small invertebrates and vertebrates, such as crickets. Corns lay eggs, becoming sexually mature at around two years of age.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I took a peek, and there is nothing on her site about feeding crickets to corn snakes.

I didn't see much to suggest an anti-pet agenda, but of course she has strong opinions on people being prepared before they consider getting a reptile pet--particularly a green iguana, which is one of the more high maintenance and troublesome animals to keep.

Perhaps you're speaking of something that was up in the past. Dunno.

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You didn't look hard enough.

Two minutes, two articles concerning her pro-ban views and a veritable slew of bad information and anti-pet crapaganda.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Is there any way to know what store she's talking about? I'm in SoCal and I have a feeling I know which store it is. There aren't many reptile-specialty shops with 'hundreds' of bp's in the back in a rack system, and there are far fewer successful enough to afford to wire their whole shop with an evesdropping machine.

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can you tell me what store you are thinking of because i live in SoCal and now im all freaked out:O i would appreciate it!

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Corns are most active at night or in the hours of dawn and dusk (crepuscular). While they are primarily ground-dwellers, some are semi-arboreal. While the Elaphes feed on everything ranging from fish to frogs to rodents to mammals, wild Corns start off feeding on small invertebrates and vertebrates, such as crickets. Corns lay eggs, becoming sexually mature at around two years of age.

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Funny stuff almost as funny as a cop going who are you when informing him of the new law in az lmao yes wow what a night :snake: :crix:

Has anyone attempted to ascertain if wild corn snake hatchlings EVER eat invertebrates? It's important to make sure it's really untrue before condemning it. I think it's also important to ascertain if any authorities said that it was true way back in 1994 when that article was written. It could have been an honest error based on the knowledge of the time.

Has anyone contacted her, and asked her to correct it?

I'll concede that it's quite bad--I never saw it before. Thanks for the link.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Has anyone attempted to ascertain if wild corn snake hatchlings EVER eat invertebrates? It's important to make sure it's really untrue before condemning it. I think it's also important to ascertain if any authorities said that it was true way back in 1994 when that article was written. It could have been an honest error based on the knowledge of the time.

Has anyone contacted her, and asked her to correct it?

I'll concede that it's quite bad--I never saw it before. Thanks for the link.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Snake



Corn snakes have a diet primarily consisting of rodents, mostly mice and rats. Prey is killed by constriction. They are proficient climbers and may scale trees in search of birds and bats although they prefer to be on ground level. As litters of infant mice are difficult to find in nature, many neonate Corn snakes are known to eat small lizards as their first meals, and anoles are the preferred choice.[citation needed] Some individuals retain these dietary tendencies well into adulthood.
Captive corn snakes are usually fed by their owners on a diet of commercially available rodents, predominantly mice, while younger and smaller specimens may eat live or dead rat or mouse pups of various sizes. Frozen mice that have been thawed to room temperature are usually preferred, as live prey can possibly carry disease or injure the snake if it has not been raised on live prey.

Here you go Donna:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Melissa+Kaplan

What!?! Thats terrible! They actually sacrifice a ball python?

That gives me the same feeling of when I think about Organ Farms in this book im reading. Its in the future when rich people have defective babies and there are organ farms that raise up unwanted babies for... ugghhhh that gives me shivers... escpecially when we have a new baby in the family... I think I should just stop talking.

Thanks, rabernet--boy, things can change in a decade. :P
Her site used to be one of the few places for detailed information on water dragon care (which I owned at the time). That's no longer the case, and it sounds like that's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Has anyone attempted to ascertain if wild corn snake hatchlings EVER eat invertebrates? It's important to make sure it's really untrue before condemning it. I think it's also important to ascertain if any authorities said that it was true way back in 1994 when that article was written. It could have been an honest error based on the knowledge of the time.

Has anyone contacted her, and asked her to correct it?

I'll concede that it's quite bad--I never saw it before. Thanks for the link.

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The statement on corn snakes eating insects was based solely on a scientific article detailing the stomach contents of wild corn snakes. Well, corns ARE well known to eat lizards, guess what lizards eat? Whatever is in the stomach of your prey is going to be in your stomach too if you're an animal that swallows your prey whole. Melissa never did any of her own research, she merely read what others have written and reinterprets their data in a way that suits her preconceived notions.

And yes, MANY people have asked her to correct her care sheets. She just ignores it all.