Hidden gene lesser????

I know already that the soulsucker is lesser x hidden gene woma

However i have heard talk of a hidden gene lesser... First of all is there such a thing?

If there is a hidden gene lesser, does this mean the the gene can only be passed on into lessers, or can we have hidden gene pastels, and hidden gene spiders etc?

Also regarding the hidden gene.If it can be passed on to other snakes. Is it possible to breed a snake with the hidden gene to a normal etc, in order to try and produce a snake of the hidden gene, with no connection or look to the woma or lesser. Basically to produce a new morph. A hidden gene morph free of lesser or woma?

I know this might be none of my buisness as the soulsucker is still shrouded in mystery. Many of the big breeders do not share there secrets about it

F.Y.I

"Hidden Gene" Woma's..don't have a Hidden gene..they are simply a different morph. Kevin thought they looked like the "Woma" but were producing some crazy stuff so he called them "Hidden gene Woma's" the name stuck..

HG woma's are a totally stand alone morph from the other Woma gene..

I have never heard of a hidden gene lesser. There is however a mystery surrounding the original Platinum that lessers originated from. it seems that the only way to reproduce a platinum is with a lesser and a lesser sibling that looks normal. That would be the hidden gene.
The soul sucker is no mystery. Kevin has made it well known the HG Woma is actually a different mutation from the regular woma. It just looks like a regular woma. The soul sucker is a HG womaxlesser...

As others have said, the "hidden gene woma" appears to be a single gene mutation.

The real hidden gene is a mutation that combines with lesser to make platy. If a lesser had the hidden gene it would already be a platy. The hidden gene mutation doesn't seem to show up combined with the wild type or even when homozygous. However, it has a big effect when combined with lesser and perhaps also other members of the blue eyed leucistic allele complex. Hidden does appear to be an allele (different version) of the blue eyed leucistic complex so a platy gives each offspring one version or the other (lesser or hidden) but not both and not neither.

I've not heard of the hidden gene allele having any effect on mutations not in the blue eyed leucistic combination but I guess we can't be sure until someone tries those combos but I wouldn't expect anything.

i think he might be refering to RDRs platty daddy as randy said

See the thing is i already understand about the hidden gene in lesser to make platinums i think....The only reason i am asking this question is because Darren Biggs Was selling a lesser hidden gene on CPR reptiles, for 995pounds!

To me this sounds too expensive for a normal lesser, and to cheap for a hidden gene lesser?

If you have an extremely light lesser breed him or her.... hold back all the normal siblings and breed it back to daddy. You might be surprised what pops out ;)

Joe Ellis

Or back to mommy

Joe

If it's a Platy Daddy then that's probably about it's going rate right now (a few people more than RDR have it now). But there isnt any hidden gene. Ralph, last I remember, was referring to Lessers as Lessers, the BEL gene modifier as Daddy and Lesser/Daddys as Platy Daddys. Hence the name for the Butter/Daddy being Butter Daddy.

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

If you have an extremely light lesser breed him or her.... hold back all the normal siblings and breed it back to daddy. You might be surprised what pops out ;)

Joe Ellis

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Not really. If it's a Lesser, which is short for Lesser Platinum, then it doesnt have the Daddy Gene.

Here is the original Platty Daddy:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/im...latinum_01.jpg

Butter Daddy:
YouTube - "Butter Daddy" footage

the hidden gene normals come only from a platinum breeding. when u breed a lesser or a platiunum to a hidden gene normal ull get platinums.

but u dont get hidden gene normals from a pure lesser breeding (like lesser x normal). these breeding bring u lessers and normals they are really only normals- no hidden genes.

and to clear things up, i and alot other people call hg womas - woma type 2- cause theres no hg...

I just didnt think platinums would be that cheap, im sure they are not!XD

Also, for some reason i seem to think that there is more than hidden gene woma x lesser in soulsucker because people have been produce pastels and granites.

Have they? I was under the impression that there were other named morphs from NERD that contained those. Someone who purchased animals from NERD stated that when the people there went over the genetics they just said it was from an HG Woma to an HG Lesser, they called it an HG Lesser because it was an early production of the Ralph Davis line Lesser, when they didnt know how the Lesser and Daddy genes worked.

I have no idea to be honest. I await the day someone would kindly explain it to me:)

Ok the inferno is a hgwoma/granite/pastel/yb. Nerd uses infernos to produce other morphs like the red spectrum etc. From what I understand the hgwoma granite and yb genes seem to piggy back with each other. It is common to reproduce this morph. There is not a differece in price for a hgwoma and hgwoma/granite/yb. So if a hgwoma/granite/yb was bred to a lesser you would get more then just soul suckers, lessers, and hg womas. You would see ybs and granites. NERD has also sold pastel hg woma granites. Some of NERDs soulsuckers may even be holding granite genes that you just can't see because of the reduction in pattern.

I saw a post somewhere that I understood to say that the normal looking "hidden" gene carriers (what you would have to breed to a lesser to produce eggs each with 25% chance of being platy) where being sold in Europe and relatively reasonable priced. I don't recall seeing them sold in the US at all at any price. But I had heard of a few platy being hatched in Europe last year and I thought even one in the US outside of RDR’s collection so the gene is out there somewhere. Just with it apparently looking completely normal you would have to buy from a source you trusted to both be honest and to understand how to keep track of it.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I saw a post somewhere that I understood to say that the normal looking "hidden" gene carriers (what you would have to breed to a lesser to produce eggs each with 25% chance of being platy) where being sold in Europe and relatively reasonable priced.

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Hey Randy, the hidden gene pricing comment your thinking of was probably this comment

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Originally Posted by joe23

how much do u have to pay in the us for a hidden gene platty sib?

here in germany they go for 500€- thats about 450$ or so. btw a lesser cost here about 350€... lol

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in this post: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showp...0&postcount=14, This was added to the thread that I started when I hatched a platinum. The guy that posted that price also said this:

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Originally Posted by joe23

how do i get a platinum (butter daddy/platty daddy)-without having a platinum before?

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here:http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=121251 four days before he posted in my thread, so I would take that info with a grain of salt. Personally I do not believe that this is an accurate price, if it is someone needs to box them up and get them to the US. I will buy every one of them.

To stay on topic, I have no idea why NERD advertises animals as hidden gene lessers. A lesser platinum can't have the hidden gene needed to make a platinum, if it had the hidden gene it would visibly be a platinum.

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Originally Posted by jluman

To stay on topic, I have no idea why NERD advertises animals as hidden gene lessers. A lesser platinum can't have the hidden gene needed to make a platinum, if it had the hidden gene it would visibly be a platinum.

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That's because they got theirs way back when after Ralph Davis just started producing lessers. Before the genetics behind the Platinum was fully understood. At the time there was a belief that it might have been a recessive trait. Hence them calling it a "Hidden Gene Lesser" way back when. NERD likes to name morphs and hide their genetics, then pop up later and say they already produced things (like what happened with the Phantom Mojave/Purple Passion).

NERD still thinks there is something special with their lessers. They said to me that you have to have their lessers to produce Soulsuckers, but how can they say that when they have not tried with other lessers. I think there are to many secrets going on over there. But they have fun with it. Just incase there is something special with their lessers, I picked up a lesser that was said to come from a soulsucker clutch. I have a stripped lesser though that I would rather use. This lesser will make some nice soulsuckers.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...s/IMG_3404.jpg

So what actually is in then...people tell me different things

I have heard hidden gene lesser x hidden gene woma
Hidden gene woma x lesser

I have also heard more.....anyone know the truth?

Well the only people that know the truth are : The staff at NERD,(and that is questionable), and the select few that have produced them outside of NERDs facility.

I bought a HG woma granite yb from NERD in Feburary, along with a lesser. I talked alot with Andy from NERD about some of the projects going with the Hg woma.

If you look at NERDs collection page you will see two snakes( woma x lesser & a soulsucker 2.0). NERD first produced the woma lesser, which most call the soulsucker. Then somewhere along the way bred a woma lesser to a weird looking WC female. The woma lesser in this clutch looked different and this is the soulsucker 2.0.

They are both about the same, Hg woma x Lesser. You can reproduce it just like a pewter, bumblebee, etc. when bred to normals.

Lessers are lesseres there is not any HG that make some different. Before they were thought to be the key to producing Platinums, but we now know it is actually the normal siblings that hold the power. To make Platniums you need the normal sibling(Het Daddy) bred to either a Platnium(Pladdy Daddy),Lesser,or Butter and you will produce Platniums,Lessers,and Het Daddys. If you bred a Pladdy Daddy to a Normal( non Het Daddy) then you will get Lessers and Normals(Het Daddy). This Daddy gene acts like the Specter gene. With the Specter gene you have to cross it with the Yellowbelly gene to make SuperStripes. It will not reproduce itself when bred to Normals. With Platniums you need the Lesser or Platnium(Pladdy Daddy) x with the Normal siblings(Het Daddy).

So Lessers are Lessers, they are not Platniums they are Lessers. They are needed to make Platniums but the secret was in the Normals all along. So dont be fooled by people saying they have HG Lessers. All Lessers originated from NERD's, and RDR's Pladdy Daddys. Plus the occasional import of Lessers from the wild.

Ralph Davis actually this year produced a Pladdy Daddy by breeding Pladdy Daddy to a WC Normal female. It should have only produced Lessers and Nomals(Het Daddy), but this WC female was a gene carrier of the Pladdy Daddy complex. So there are other Platniums out there in the wild and who knows what your normal Balls hold.

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Originally Posted by MKHerps

To make Platniums you need the normal sibling(Het Daddy) bred to either a Platnium(Pladdy Daddy),Lesser,or Butter and you will produce Platniums,Lessers,and Het Daddys.

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Probably just an omission but here is an example of how hard it's going to be to keep track of the hidden gene. You can still produce normal normals (i.e. not hidden gene at all) unless one of the parents is platy or homozygous hidden. So the normal looking babies from hidden (aka normal sibling) X lesser breeding would only be 50% chance hidden carriers.

RDR did produce a normal looking female from platy X platy a few years back that should have been a 100% homozygous hidden so you can even have percentage possible homozygous with this normal looking mutation. Early on RDR did a lot of hidden X hidden (the het version offspring of the original platy) that produced a bunch of 25% chance homozygous hidden babies that would also be 50% chance regular het hiddens like their parents and only 25% chance real normals.

Thanks for telling me someone produced a Hom Daddy. I was wondering if anyone had tried as it's fairly easy if you have 1.1 platinums/butter daddies.

[QUOTE=RandyRemington;1381106]Probably just an omission but here is an example of how hard it's going to be to keep track of the hidden gene.

Very good Point. So does this prove for example then that a wild platinum or other wild morph, doesnt necessarily live in a secluded community. Doesnt this then prove that the 'normal normals' are mixing with the other morphs like the platinums to produce normal looking gene carriers?

So doesnt this mean that even without mans intervention, double gene, and single gene animals may have evolved into the spectrum of colour we have today among the ball python morphs.

Also doesnt this mean that many, many more unusual ball pythons (new morphs in some cases), will continue to appear. On shipments etc.?

Yes, I believe the original platy was a wild bred combo. We don't know how common the hidden gene is as so far it only shows up really well in lesser/butter. So might not be that far out there to make the platy combo compared to combo of two unrelated albino hets to make an albino.

By "normal normal" I meant wild type as opposed to the hiddens that look normal but really have a mutant allele even though it doesn't show by it's self.

Hard to know how many more surprises Africa has for us. I think a good part of the ball python diversity is in the numbers. If we collected 150k corn snake eggs from the wild each year we might hatch out a lot of odd mutants there too. If something where to change to decrease the wild collection it would probably impact new morph discovery. Even staying steady I would think the number of new morphs has to be decreasing slowly as so many have already been seen.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I don't recall seeing them sold in the US at all at any price.

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Ralph has Daddy's and Het Daddy's posted for sale this year.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/cu...02-biglist.asp

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

You can still produce normal normals (i.e. not hidden gene at all) unless one of the parents is platy or homozygous hidden. So the normal looking babies from hidden (aka normal sibling) X lesser breeding would only be 50% chance hidden carriers.

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Your other option is to breed the Hidden/Possible hidden to a lucy, then all babies would be either Daddy or Lesser/Butter :)

I might be wrong here...

I dont see much of the platinum to be honest. I mean i have never heard of platinum clowns, pastels, spiders etc.....have they been done

I understand Ralph spent alot of time producing more Platinums from siblings etc, but i have never heard of any speak of a platinum pastel, or spider etc?

I may be wrong here, i mean he probably has done them, after all it is Ralph Davis, he has so much....but as idont go on kingsnake i dont wether these have actually been done?