Starting Axanthics!

Hi there, im new to the forum but have been a lurker for awhile now. having a had a few herps under my belt now, and having been fascinated with herps for a such a long time coming, i am now finally ready and prepared to take the step into breeding.

I would like to ask the experienced people in this community for their help regarding picking a good combo with Axanthics. I managed to get most of my genetic homework down but its still rather daunting i must say. Making money out of the animals is not a primary concern, though i do hope they could at least cover some cost at the end of the day. The most important part is working with the animals that i am constantly in awe of. Having said that, what do you guys propose for a good starter breeding colony regarding Axanthics? And im not really talking about price tags in the thousands, heh.

I have an idea in mind of 1.0 VPI axanthic, 0.1 pastel het Ax, 0.1 100% het Ax and perhaps maybe a spider or pinstripe to get hets to be bred back to the parent. Due to lack of funding, probably possible hets at that.

Your comments, thoughts and ideas will be greatly appreciated!

ian

I'd definitely suggest picking up a female axanthic or two. I don't think you can have enough of them.

Then from there it's just a matter of what combos you want to produce. You can either get male codom hets from a trusted breeder or get a newer codom and shoot for something maybe someone hasn't thought of.

I know I rack my brain for ideas of great axanthic combos :S

Hope that helps and best of luck!!!!

Congrats on a great morph choice ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifun.jc

Hi there, im new to the forum but have been a lurker for awhile now. having a had a few herps under my belt now, and having been fascinated with herps for a such a long time coming, i am now finally ready and prepared to take the step into breeding.

I would like to ask the experienced people in this community for their help regarding picking a good combo with Axanthics. I managed to get most of my genetic homework down but its still rather daunting i must say. Making money out of the animals is not a primary concern, though i do hope they could at least cover some cost at the end of the day. The most important part is working with the animals that i am constantly in awe of. Having said that, what do you guys propose for a good starter breeding colony regarding Axanthics? And im not really talking about price tags in the thousands, heh.

I have an idea in mind of 1.0 VPI axanthic, 0.1 pastel het Ax, 0.1 100% het Ax and perhaps maybe a spider or pinstripe to get hets to be bred back to the parent. Due to lack of funding, probably possible hets at that.

Your comments, thoughts and ideas will be greatly appreciated!

ian

---

I would probably follow John's advice. Pick up 2 Axanthic females, and then next year, look for a Bumble Het male. I think that Spider Axanthics and Pastel Axanthics are fairly popular and good looking. Lastly, who would complain about an Axanthic Bumblebee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JD Constriction

I'd definitely suggest picking up a female axanthic or two. I don't think you can have enough of them.

Then from there it's just a matter of what combos you want to produce. You can either get male codom hets from a trusted breeder or get a newer codom and shoot for something maybe someone hasn't thought of.

I know I rack my brain for ideas of great axanthic combos :S

Hope that helps and best of luck!!!!

Congrats on a great morph choice ;)

---

AND he has some gorgeous axanthics ^^. They aren't VPI, but in my opinion I like the SK better. I would try and get a look at the parents of the snakes you choose. The better lines, the better the offspring. Heather (LadyOhh) just produced some really nice ones from her TSK's. They are just mouth droppers.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=123624

Now if we can just get JD to put some of his hatchlins on his available page ;)

Wow thanks for all the feedback guys! =)

Hmm..So in essence i would want to grab axanthic females instead of males, and morph het axanthic males? Now i see why females go generally for so much more lol. I really hope to grab some that will maintain that gorgeous coloration! VPI and TSK seem to be up there apart from the rest.

Yes i saw her post with her new babies they are really absolutely gorgeous! I do wonder if shes making them available! haha. and yes, Axanthic Bumblebees are insane. =D

Yes, definately snatch up the females first. If you get them as young ones, it will be awhile before they are ready to breed, and it's much easier to get some het males. Even visual males.

For example: I have two female hets, a spider and a pastel. I have a good 2-3 yrs to decide if I want a het male, visual male, or a morph het male. It will also give me plenty of time to save money if I decide to go with a visual morph :)

How much do subadult female Axanthics go for? in the mean time would it be practical to produce the morph hets myself with a male axanthic and a codom and pray for a male from that clutch?

I'm not really sure. I bought mine at a show. I wasn't really looking for them, but the guy gave me a really good deal. Check out kingsnake.com and faunaclassifieds.com

I still think I would go with a female first. If you think about it, even if you produce a female from that clutch, you have 2-3 yrs from that date before she is ready to breed. That's a long time, but if you look at it from a money aspect it is the best cost effective way.

Ahh..that is true i didnt think about it that way. Hmmm so much to think about! But it's been awhile since ive been so engrossed and excited about something.

So female axanthics look like the way to go and possibly male codom hets or visuals down the road as well. so on that note, anyone got some lying around? heh.

If I was going to start out now I would get 2 unrelated visual axanthic females then next year get one or two co-doms what ever you like that is visual or het axanthic. I started my axanthic project with a single pastel het axanthic male and a normal female. I then added sub adult and baby het females. But if you get 2 unrelated pair of visual animals you can start with 2 distinct family trees in your project.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifun.jc

Ahh..that is true i didnt think about it that way. Hmmm so much to think about! But it's been awhile since ive been so engrossed and excited about something.

So female axanthics look like the way to go and possibly male codom hets or visuals down the road as well. so on that note, anyone got some lying around? heh.

---

I'm pretty sure JD is going to have some hatching this year. Pm him and ask what he has cooking. I don't know about anyone else. I would watch kingsnake. I know I've seen some VPI lines on there. Also, reptile shows are a great way to go.

Hmm im not too sure what does having 2 distinct family trees entail. Does that mean breeding 2 separate males to those 2 separate females?

Yea im waiting on the San Jose expo on the 31st! I have been watching kingsnake and fauna classifieds everyday and some axanthics do pop up from time to time! Mostly 2010 babies though and some breeder males which sadly dont have much grey/silver retention and look rather normal.

Quote:

---

Hmm im not too sure what does having 2 distinct family trees entail. Does that mean breeding 2 separate males to those 2 separate females?

---

Yes you bred one male to one female and one male to the other getting two unrelated clutches. Example:

Clutch 1 Axanthic female x pastel het axanthic male

and

Clutch 2 axanthic female x spider het axanthic male

You get babies from Clutch 1 that are not related to clutch 2 or the parents that way you can cross back and get (in this example) bumble bee axanthics with out any in breeding.

Not saying that it's the only way to do it but it is a way that I would go about it if I had to start over.

Ahh! That makes total sense right now im sorry i forgot about the inbreeding part. But i have also read that inbreeding is not necessarily a bad thing? or am i ill-informed?

1.-2. (09' or older) visual Axanthic(s) (depending on your stance on in/line breeding.
.1 Spider (08'-09')
.1 Pastel (08'-09')
.1 Pinstripe (08'-09)
.1 Mojo / Lesser (08'-09')
.1 Cinnamon/BlackPastel (08'-09')

That way you can try breeding the visual Axanthic x the Females in the upcoming 2010-2011 season, and maybe produce some CoDoms and be certain that they are 100%het Axanthic.
(As well as get some breeding experience.)

Hold back ALL of the females that you produce.
Sell the males, and put the money away.
(Repeat this again in the 2011-2012 season as well, but hold back a CoDom 100%het Ax. of each CoDom you are working with.)

After a season or two, when the females that you produced and held back are grown and the market has come down some, you can use that money to pick up a Double CoDom male that is also a visual Axanthic to breed them to.
(BumbleBee Ax, Pewter Ax, LemonBlast Ax, or FireFly Axanthic.)

Starting with just these Base Morphs, if everything goes well, you could be producing some of the following Combo's in as little as 3-5 years:

Pastel Axanthics
Spider Ax's
Pinstripe Ax's
Cinnamon Ax's
Pinstripe Ax's
Mojo / Lesser Ax's
SuperPastel Ax's
Bumble / KillerBee Ax's
Lemon / KillerBlast Ax's
Pewter Ax's
CinnaBee Ax's
FireFly Ax's
Spinner / SpinnerBlast Ax's
Pastave / LesserPastel Ax's
QueenBee Ax's
... and many, many more.

I'm not sure that you would ever run out of the potential for more Combo's with those Morphs, but if you did you can always pick up some other CoDom females.

If all that gets boring to you, just throw some other Simple Recessive Mutations into the mix.
Hypo/Ghost x Axanthic (True Ghost)
Albino/Lav. Albino (Snow)
And then there is always Clown, Pied, Genetic Stripe.....
:rolleye2:

DOH! Busted.

I'm behind this year with updating the webpage :( Maybe this weekend!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Now if we can just get JD to put some of his hatchlins on his available page ;)

---

Oh dear, choices & more choices, males and females! ><

Actually what is holding me back from pouring more money in it is not having bred them before, and im still apprehensive about my ability to with inexperience. I guess thats a pretty good pcourse of action in getting my feet wet .. hmm D: im more informed now but more confused too lol

We work solely with VPI line, and haven't hatched anything yet, but we have the potential to hatch all of the following this year:
Axanthics
Het Axanthics
Possible Het Axanthics
Axanthic Enchis
Enchis Het Axanthic
Enchis Possible Het Axanthic
Axanthic Pinstripes
Pinstripes Het Axanthic
Pinstripes Possible Het Axanthic
Mojaves Het Axanthic
Spiders Het Axanthic
Pastels Het Axanthic
Bumblebees Het Axanthic
True Ghosts
Axanthics Possible Het Hypo

As you can tell, I kind of like Axanthics as well.

Good luck in your future Axanthic projects.

Yes i sure can tell!

Ive seen a few VPI Axanthics online that are up for grabs, but most of them have browned out. I havent actually seen any that still remotely retained their grey silver colors. Is that normal, or is there a more refined strain of VPI axanthics that i should be looking at?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifun.jc

Yes i sure can tell!

Ive seen a few VPI Axanthics online that are up for grabs, but most of them have browned out. I havent actually seen any that still remotely retained their grey silver colors. Is that normal, or is there a more refined strain of VPI axanthics that i should be looking at?

---

My original male is now 6 years old, and has browned a bit. However, he is still distinguishable from a normal. I have 4 Axanthic girls that I have produced that are laying this year, and they are from 2-4 years old. They are still very grey, although they do develop a bit of a purple tint as they approach three years old. I can get you some pics of my older ones if you would like. I would suggest you ask whoever you get your Axanthics from for pics of their adults, as almost every baby I have seen looks great, but some of the adults do "brown" alot. The parental stock is probably the best tell tale of how the babies will look.

Hope that helps,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muddoc

My original male is now 6 years old, and has browned a bit. However, he is still distinguishable from a normal. I have 4 Axanthic girls that I have produced that are laying this year, and they are from 2-4 years old. They are still very grey, although they do develop a bit of a purple tint as they approach three years old. I can get you some pics of my older ones if you would like. I would suggest you ask whoever you get your Axanthics from for pics of their adults, as almost every baby I have seen looks great, but some of the adults do "brown" alot. The parental stock is probably the best tell tale of how the babies will look.

Hope that helps,

---

Could not agree more. And, if you end up getting a het, make sure it's from a reputable breeder. Hets are too easy to squander on people. Would definitely check up on feedback at any "for sale" site.

yes please! I hope it is not too much trouble to see some pics of your beautiful animals. I know photographs dont do justice to axanthics mostly but pics are always nice =)

Yea Im kind wary of hets going for sale by random people on fauna or kingsnake, there is of course the BOI but then again who knows.

On a separate note, hijacking my own thread, how many holes would u guys drill into a 41 quartz? And still maintain enough humidity and ventilation.

Hi ive been doing some thinking, and was just wondering, and probably im missing something else in the bigger picture, but wouldnt getting Male Axanthics be better? If i had a female axanthic i can only breed her to one male. but if i have one male i can breed him to several females to spread the axanthic gene?

I see cost as a huge setback to this because female breeder morphs are so bloody expensive D: but is that the only reason why you guys strongly advocate females instead?

I think on my 41 qts I have a row of 6 wide and 5 long 1/4" holes on each side of the lid. So, 5 rows of 6-7 holes. Yes, males can breed many females, but it will take a female 2-3 yrs to reach breeding maturity. So, you want females first to get them up to breeding weight. Males are cheaper, and easier to come by. Good luck!

So you drill them into the lid and not the sides?

Can someone save me from bashing my head into the table trying to figure a punnett square combi out? lol. So if i have Axanthic X Pastel het Axanthic for example, what will i get from it. This is what i arrived at, 25% Axanthics, 25% Cinnamons het Axanthics, 25% Axanthic Cinnamons, and 25% just het Axanthics. This doesnt sound right to me and probably i did it wrongly too =(

Also a step up from that of Pastel het Axanthic X Spider het Axanthic for example? Im stuck at just labelling them for the square! Argh. My pea brain is overloading.

Yeah, I put them on the top, but most rack systems are built with no lids. Then you put them on the side. Just measure the humidity and add holes as you go. I found it easier to put a bunch in the lid. Placement really isn't that important.

I totally stink at punet squares, but I think your right. As long as you switch the cinnamon out with pastel. And it would work the same with the AX x SpAX.

That is sheer proof of the slow but steady retardation of my brain. i meant to put pastel >< thanks though!

Yes you are right on. Look here: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/

And just hold ctrl to choose both Pasel and Het Axanthic for one of the parents. Sorry, it took me a little bit to figure out the control thing.

Ahhh...Yes i came across that website, but it wasnt very clear to me at first. But now since you have confirmed its integrity and accuracy i will start using it more! Pen and paper punnett squares arent much fun.

Hi guys, would like your opinions on this.

Was offered a 2010 Male VPI axanthic baby from a reputable breeder. When i asked if it was an early 2010 he said it was a june baby, and said that if fed right it could be ready by the end of the year. He said he produces stuff as late as july and has them bred for him in November.

Ive read that it's possible to do this. Where i do not doubt his knowledge and experience, i am just curious if there are any ill effects on the young snake being bred to 3-4 females so early on.

Thanks in advance for your inputs.

ian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifun.jc

yes please! I hope it is not too much trouble to see some pics of your beautiful animals. I know photographs dont do justice to axanthics mostly but pics are always nice =)

---

As requested, here is a pic of some older Axanthics. The animal in the top right corner is my original male VPI Axanthic. I bought him from BHB in 2004. He is now 6 years old. The animal on the right is one of his daughters that I produced in 2006, making her 4 years old. She is actually gravid right now, and will be laying her third clutch of eggs this year. She is around 2700 grams. The animal in the lower left is obviously an Albino. I produced her in 2008 and included her for a color comparison.

http://www.baileyreptiles.com/pics/axanthicage.jpg

Enjoy the pic,

Very nice! I guess they still brown out eventually but they look really great right there.

Btw might i hear your views on the above post which i just made?

thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifun.jc

Hi guys, would like your opinions on this.

Was offered a 2010 Male VPI axanthic baby from a reputable breeder. When i asked if it was an early 2010 he said it was a june baby, and said that if fed right it could be ready by the end of the year. He said he produces stuff as late as july and has them bred for him in November.

Ive read that it's possible to do this. Where i do not doubt his knowledge and experience, i am just curious if there are any ill effects on the young snake being bred to 3-4 females so early on.

Thanks in advance for your inputs.

ian

---

I have bred males like that in the past. I cannot vouche for the long term effects, and I don't think anyone really can, as the practice of breeding very young males is still relatively new (in the past 5 years or so). I had a very small, young male (read as 350 grams and 7 months old) breed and successfully impregnate 7 females this year. With that said, much more attention needs to be paid to young breeders, as I think the toll on them can be more sever than an older male with a much greater body weight and store of fat. Ultimately though, the male may not breed at that young of an age. It is up to him. All you can do is put him in with a female and see if he is mature. He will breed if he wants to. I would think that 2-3 females is safe for him, but 4 may be a stretch for a breeder without a fair amount of experience under their belt.

I hope that helps,