Would you purchase from a breeder who advocates power feeding?

I'm just wondering because when I got my fire and pastel a couple years back the breeder told me to feed them like 2-3 hoppers every 3 days. Then someone had come in with a fire that they had bought from him and he told me that it's the size a snake should be at 2-3 months (it looked about 500g).

I brought up the risk of it causing the snakes to be obese and how it leads to a shorter life span, and he told me that he'd rather have a female breed for him sooner than live to be 20 years old.

In my honest opinon, that breeder was a scumbag. People like that are in it for the love of the herps, they're just trying to make some money as fast as they can, even if that means having and obese snake with a shortened life span. I honestly think its cruelty to power feed. They dont really have an off switch for feeding. Snakes eat when they can because they dont know when the next meal is coming, so instincts tell them to take the prey when its there.

In my opinon, we shouldnt power feed out herps. It is animal cruelty. I would love for a female or two to get big early, but even then i may wait for her sex organs to mature more. Even the big breeders that make a profit from breeding do it because they love the herps, not because they just want to make a quick buck.

There are alot of sleezy people out there and in my opinon, that guy is one of the many.

I'd pay more to go to a different breeder than buy from someone that would rather shorten an animal's life for extra money than let the animal be healthy. That breeder sounds like a total jerk.

There is actually no real evidence that power feeding will shorten their lifespan. It's assumed that it will due to experiments on other animals, but there is no actual proof that power feeding will shorten a ball pythons life.

I think that it's difficult to overfeed babies, they're constantly growing and putting all of the food they eat into growth, however if you continue feeding the same way once they reach adulthood, they will become obese, and obese snakes do not breed well.

Personally I like to keep my hatchlings on the hungry side because I think it's easier to get them switched to frozen thawed that way, but I certainly wouldn't call the breeder a scumbag because he likes to feed a lot.

Until I had actual experience or could see actual physical results from long term powerfeeding to more than a few snakes, I'd probably keep my scumbagging to a minimum.

It sort of sucks when you call someone a scumbag and it turns out you're an ignorant lout who thinks he should be right but has had 2 snakes for a year and read a couple of articles by other ignorant louts who also had a bunch of emotion and no facts at all.

But that's just me. The rest of you feel free to lout away.

The whole power-feeding thing doesn't really bother me one way or the other, because we don't know one way or the other if it truly affects a snake's quality of life, but the "rather having a snake breed sooner than live until twenty", whether power feeding affects it or no, does bother me. Maybe I wouldn't call him a scumbag, but that does seem a bit off.

There's no evidence for power feeding one way or another with snakes. But when asked, the breeder put breeding over the health of the animal. To me, that makes him a jerk. If I took that out of context or misunderstood, please correct me and I will eat my words. I haven't met this breeder but based on the statement of "[I]'d rather have a female breed for [me] sooner than live to be 20 years old." and considering the captive life span on a ball python is 20-30 years, I'd call him a jerk and wouldn't do business with him.

No, I would stay from away from this breeder.

Over fed boas don't live long healthy lives because they can't process the fat like a python does. So, I guess I'm saying that fat "snakes" aren't healthy. But, I don't know that an over weight/fat ball python is unhealthy. I've seen several skinny ball pythons that were not healthy though. IMO

On the "facts" thing, the info I have is I guess technically hearsay.

In Daytona 2007/8 at the Friday night talk on Boas, Dave Barker gave a power point presentation on the anatomy of boas. He spoke about the reproductive tract and how it worked. He also stated that obese boas do not breed well because the fat in their bodies crowds out the internal organs giving no room for folicles and embryos to develop.

The following year the Friday night talk was on Blood pythons, this time Kara and Tracey Barker where the main speakers. They also commented on how obese females have higher instances of laying slugs for the same reasons outlined by Dave the previous year.

Now for me with the info given at those two symposiums coupled with info from vets about how to improve a female (insert animal here) reproductive health. I would say that fat females don't breed as well as females with proper body weight. (no matter if it is a ball, boa, lizard, dog, cat ect.....)

Would I call someone who power feeds a scumbag? No, I think that's a little extreme. However, I do believe that they are hurting the long term general and reproductive health of their animals. Which in turn will bite them in their wallet eventually.

To answer the question, yes I would buy a neonate or yearling since obesity can be fixed by dieting and if it is fixed young enough then their should be no long term effects on the animal (based on my knowledge of the subject).

How can you call somebody a scum bag for feeding their hatchlings well? dont get it??????? BPs eat then dont eat. every three to 5 days for hatchlings is great really dont get it.especially calling people names,by the way who is the breeder your calling a scumbag?? some deserve the name but feeding hatchlings is not .by the contrary ive seen 8 month old babies still at 175 to 200grams or less from lack of feeding??? thats cruel.

I dunno enough to really make this decision. I'd rather buy from a breeder I know and trust but if the power feeder had a BP with just the right pattern I'd buy it.


I mean I don't have to listen to him if I think he's wrong especially if other sources say other wise.


Then again it's kinda what we define "PowerFeeding" As. I saw on snakebytes I think they feed every 5 instead of every 7. Because they need more weight because they wanna produce more. And I don't think thats wrong.


Like I said I'm ignorant on the matter. I'm lucky to so far have only dealt with really awesome people when it comes to BP's.

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Originally Posted by greghall

How can you call somebody a scum bag for feeding their hatchlings well? dont get it??????? BPs eat then dont eat. every three to 5 days for hatchlings is great really dont get it.especially calling people names,by the way who is the breeder your calling a scumbag?? some deserve the name but feeding hatchlings is not .by the contrary ive seen 8 month old babies still at 175 to 200grams or less from lack of feeding??? thats cruel.

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I just wanted to make clear that power feeding isnt just feeding more than often, but feeding too much and STUFFING more food into their mouths to swallow, right after they almost get done with the first. Hence the name Power feed.

We are not talking about feeding every three or fours day instead of every 7, because to me that is not power feeding.

So no one else would consider a breeder a scumbag when they put the health of the animal last. Even if there is no proof as of now, If your power feeding when you believe it shortens the lifespan of the animal, why do it? This breeder said it himself. He'd rather a female breed earlier than it live to 20 years. To him, the animals are disposable. And to me thats a scumbag.

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

So no one else would consider a breeder a scumbag when they put the health of the animal last. Even if there is no proof as of now, If your power feeding when you believe it shortens the lifespan of the animal, why do it? This breeder said it himself. He'd rather a female breed earlier than it live to 20 years. To him, the animals are disposable. And to me thats a scumbag.

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Business is business. If you breed snakes as your business then you need to get them breeding.

Pets are a different matter. I'm pretty sure cows and goats and ducks and chickens live longer on their own than the ones who are born into the "food" lines that those scumbags out there are breeding so folks can eat.

It may not be NICE, but making baby snakes as soon as you can, if that's what you're doing to make a living, is part of the business.

Calling someone feeding hatchlings every 4 days a scumbag is a bit of a stretch. I feed every 4-5 days. Hatchlings in Africa are hardwired to eat as much as possible as frequently as possible to become less of a prey item to predators. They hatch after the rainy season when prey items are abundant.

Feeding with more frequency is also not power feeding. Putting the prey into the mouth of a snake while it's finishing swallowing the first prey item is power feeding.

IF they are doing this as a living, dont they want the highest efficiency of the snakes? So overweight or obese males and females do not breed well, correct? Also shaving a year off of waiting for breeding size could very well shave 2 or 3 years off of its breeding life span. So wouldnt that be counterintuitive? That wouldn't be very efficient for business.

I dont believe powerfeeding your snakes is part of the business at all. Most breeders wont powerfeed because though they are making a living, they still care for their animals.

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Calling someone feeding hatchlings every 4 days a scumbag is a bit of a stretch. I feed every 4-5 days. Hatchlings in Africa are hardwired to eat as much as possible as frequently as possible to become less of a prey item to predators. They hatch after the rainy season when prey items are abundant

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The breeder that this thread started about was feeding the hatchlings upwards of %50 of their body weight every three days. I find that excessive.

so your talking about force feeding:confused: I think they would regurge what they couldnt handle,like I said before I think under feeding & stunting is more of a issue because bottom line ,feeders cost money ,less money into snake means more profit.

I give my hatchling spider a hopper every 3 days as an FYI. I'll slow that maybe in a month or two when I move to rats to 5 days but for now I just want him to eat, grow, and be healthy.

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Originally Posted by greghall

so your talking about force feeding:confused: I think they would regurge what they couldnt handle,like I said before I think under feeding & stunting is more of a issue because bottom line ,feeders cost money ,less money into snake means more profit.

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It is force feeding, but normaly you use that term when you are trying to force a NON eating snake ( Like a hatchling who hasnt started yet) to eat.

I went with 'depends'.

It depends MOST on your definition of power-feeding. The OP's description does not constitute power-feeding at all in my opinion. It's simply frequent feeding. Power-feeding involves introducing another food item on the tail of the first one, to cause the snake to consume more food than it actually wants to.

The second 'depends' is the species. As someone pointed out, boas that are overfed do poorly. Some subspecies of boas are even more prone to problems than others when they are fed too much and too frequently as hatchlings.

Ball pythons do not appear to be prone to these issues. Of course adult ball pythons can become obese--when they are obese, they breed poorly. Females slug out often, and males are lazy. You don't want to put too much weight on an adult ball python.

However, there is no evidence I have seen that feeding YOUNG ball pythons as much as they care to eat does anything more than cause them to grow extremely quickly--all of them, including their head (no pinhead syndrome). Some young snakes have even made it to 1500 grams in their very first year, and they look normal.

It is an evolutionary advantage for a young snake to be able to take advantage of a plentiful food supply when there IS plenty of food, when it comes to a harsh environment like the African savannah. The faster a ball python can grow up, the less vulnerable it will be to predators. That size also provides a tremendous buffer against hard times--that 1500 gram yearling could go on to survive for a year without food if it had to.

Since these snakes appear to be growing very fast, and their growth is proportional, there is no reason to think that this is bad for the health. They also do not appear to be obese (there are signs you can look for that indicate that, such as visible skin between scales).

There is 0 evidence, even anecdotal, to suggest that ball pythons that have been fed heavily in their first 3 years of live will live shorter lives.

Logically, the result of all that feeding will be that their final adult size will be considerably larger than that of snakes that were fed more sparingly. Think about it--they will continue to grow FAST until they are around 3 years old. Around that point, their growth rate slows dramatically, and they continue to grow very slowly over the course of the rest of their life. The larger they are when they reach about 3 years old, the bigger they'll be in the end.

Now, a lot of a ball python's size is going to be genetic, we can see that some animals naturally grow much larger and much faster than others--but if you want an individual to reach its full potential for size, you have to get that growth in while it is young.

I don't want a 'slow-grown' female. She's going to be small. She's ALWAYS going to be small. Small females lay small clutches. Even if large females can sometimes lay small clutches as well, it's a simple fact--no 1500 gram female is going to lay 13 eggs for you.

Ball pythons are highly adaptable animals--a smaller body size will allow them to survive better in areas where food is scarce. Smaller clutches will also give hatchlings less competition for scarce food. It all works out for the ball pythons in the wild.

Now, I could be wrong in my conclusions, above...but I haven't seen any sign of it so far.

As for my own snakes--hatchlings start eating every 2 to 3 days for their first meals, then they move to feedings every 4 days for my holdbacks, and every 5 days for the animals for sale. I keep them on that schedule for as long as they will tolerate it. When they begin refusing meals, they are moved to a 7 day schedule.
I also put post-breeding females on a 5 days schedule to put their weight back on quickly after they lay, then they're moved to maintenance feeding through the breeding season. It appears to be working exceptionally well.

Ball pythons will eat an amount comfortable for them to process, if you give them the choice. That isn't power-feeding.

I also said depends. If the breeder is power feeding a female like crazy just so he can breed her on her second winter, I don't support that. If the breeder is power feeding the babies to get them up to a good weight I have no problem with that. I power feed many of my animals, especially the babies so they get up to a comfortable weight faster. Although, my power feeding is one appropriate sized animal every four days.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I power feed many of my animals, especially the babies so they get up to a comfortable weight faster. Although, my power feeding is one appropriate sized animal every four days.

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I wouldnt define that as power feeding.

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

I wouldnt define that as power feeding.

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Some people DO define that as power feeding, which is where a lot of the problem lies. There is no actual definition of 'power feeding'

really how many BPs have people riased for more than 5 years & bred every year that are commenting on this?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Some people DO define that as power feeding, which is where a lot of the problem lies. There is no actual definition of 'power feeding'

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I do not think that there is a set rule that gos for all snakes, but for each type I would say yes.

With ball pythons, feeding every three or four days is not. I could and did feed my younger ball pythons that way and they did great, but if I fed my boas as often I could see them gain weight, especially width, alot faster to a point where I slowed down to once a week.

Ive been doing it for 5 years & im still learning,it takes that long or more to establish a nice collection.

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Originally Posted by greghall

really how many BPs have people riased for more than 5 years & bred every year that are commenting on this?

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I think a better question would be who has actually had a controlled experiment with this. Who can say power feeding has no negative affects on their life span, if they have not had MANY snakes from baby to time of death with some on a controlled once a week feeding, vs always feeding as much as they can eat and when ever they will take the food, even if that means offering every day.

Well, there is no question that overfeeding adult ball pythons results in obesity, which is harmful to their health.

The assertion here is that feeding hatchling ball pythons that way also will result in health issues. But hatchlings don't become obese, so what health issues would it cause?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Some people DO define that as power feeding, which is where a lot of the problem lies. There is no actual definition of 'power feeding'

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By "some people do" are you referring to the ones that own one or two snakes for a few months, read a few articles written by a lout, that read or heard that from another lout, and became enlightened experts overnight? J/K:cool: Logically anyone that can add 1+1 and make it equal 2, should be able to logically differ between what exactly is power feeding and what is not. I can however say from experience, every ball python in my collection that was purchased as a hatchling was on a 4 day feeding schedule and are still, sexy,gorgeous, thriving and humping animals, and in addition they are not overweight by any means. Would I advocate this schedule to a full grown adult BP? NO, those I feed once a week. Now another scenario, if I were feeding babies on a 4 day schedule and as they were swallowing the rat I take it upon myself to shove another rat in the snakes mouth then that would be considered probably by most "power feeding."

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The assertion here is that feeding hatchling ball pythons that way also will result in health issues. But hatchlings don't become obese, so what health issues would it cause?

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Eh, I still cant find that in the OPs first post.

Actually they are asking if we would buy from this breeder or not :P But of course everyone went off subject an endless debate on "Power" feeding to which people who do "it"..what ever their deffinition of it is, will chime in and say yes it is safe, while those who do not like it will say no it is not. It's an endless circle and lately this type of circle is starting to happen in most threads, which slightly annoys me, because the poll does not ask at all that opinion. Though it does have to do with the subject of what the OP asked, but its late and I probably shouldnt be posting in my sleepy state of mind LOL

What I see is a breeder who cares more about breeding than the lifespan of the snake. Would I buy babys from them? IDK, I would take the fact that he clearly states that ( Even if it has no ill effects) he cares more about the money than the snakes, because that is what I get from what he said. I would not buy from them at all if they were doing my Deffiniton of power feeding.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I brought up the risk of it causing the snakes to be obese and how it leads to a shorter life span, and he told me that he'd rather have a female breed for him sooner than live to be 20 years old.

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I voted it depends. In this case no, based on the fact that he is in the mindset of money over an animal's health.

Plus, like others have said not everyone agrees with what powerfeeding is.

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

By "some people do" are you referring to the ones that own one or two snakes for a few months, read a few articles written by a lout, that read or heard that from another lout, and became enlightened experts overnight? J/K:cool: Logically anyone that can add 1+1 and make it equal 2, should be able to logically differ between what exactly is power feeding and what is not. I can however say from experience, every ball python in my collection that was purchased as a hatchling was on a 4 day feeding schedule and are still, sexy,gorgeous, thriving and humping animals, and in addition they are not overweight by any means. Would I advocate this schedule to a full grown adult BP? NO, those I feed once a week. Now another scenario, if I were feeding babies on a 4 day schedule and as they were swallowing the rat I take it upon myself to shove another rat in the snakes mouth then that would be considered probably by most "power feeding."

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Actually, when I started breeding snakes over 20 years ago, I saw the term and asked about it by snake breeders who had a lot more experience then I and was told that power feeding was when you feed more then you normally would for maintence in order to get the snake to grow faster. A pretty open ended definition if you ask me,.

I don't think I've ever actually met anybody who claimed to power feed by stuffing rodents in their mouths one after the other after the other so the snake ends up swallowing more then it would have. The only time I ever heard of something like that it was being recommended as a way to get weight back on a seriously skinny snake and I think it was called train feeding or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I'm just wondering because when I got my fire and pastel a couple years back the breeder told me to feed them like 2-3 hoppers every 3 days. Then someone had come in with a fire that they had bought from him and he told me that it's the size a snake should be at 2-3 months (it looked about 500g).

I brought up the risk of it causing the snakes to be obese and how it leads to a shorter life span, and he told me that he'd rather have a female breed for him sooner than live to be 20 years old.

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I don't know where this "Power Feeding" fervor comes from. Feeding a neonate every 2-4 days isn't power feeding. Also depending on the individual snake, yes it can weigh 500 grams at 3 months old. A snake will eat what it wants and will stop when it wants. Now if you're feeding the snake another rodent while it's still swallowing the first, then that's what I consider "Power Feeding". Then you have "Force Feeding" in which you pry the snake's mouth open and manually start the feeding process yourself.

Now that's the difference as I understand it. Lets look at each.

Feeding Every 3 Days-I see nothing wrong with this for the snake's sake. That is unless it leads to either of the 2 options listed below.

Power Feeding-Usually used by a breeder to get their snake up to breeding size quickly. Is this a bad thing? Well, yes and no. Depending on how far you take it. Without knowing exact details it's difficult for someone to judge another. I don't power feed my sub adult snakes, but I know others that do and they have healthy snakes. But I must qualify that statement with these breeders are top notch people. Usually a breeder is going to protect their breeding stock. ***Where this could be used and not be in the best interest for the snake would be a breeder wanting to get a snake up to size quickly because that snake is worth much more money as an adult.***

Force Feeding-Usually used as a tool to save a snake's life due to it not eating for some time. I've had to force feed just one snake in over 20 years of keeping one type of snake or another. The snake was at the time a rare albino sand boa. A newborn that wouldn't eat. I started off with pinky heads and worked my way to complete pinkies. If used for this purpose, I see nothing wrong. I've never known anyone to force feed for any other reason.

Your opinion are in fact yours and I'm not about to change it, but I would be very careful talking about a breeder and thier husbandry practice. This is directed to the members that have responded to your inquiry.

As for questioning the breeder, that's good for the industry. If you don't understand something, ask a question. That way, you will get the answer that will clear up many misconceptions. However, you can also get some incorrect responses. That can be a good and bad thing about asking these types of qeustions on a forum like this. However, the majority will give you correct information and will self-correct the misinformed.

Thanks for the question and I hope we've been able to help you understand this situation.

Jim Smith

Well, the OP asked this question in the first place because of the assumption that 'power feeding' is bad for a snake's health.

Some of us who have been around for a while have seen the photos of 'power fed' snakes--huge, obese bodies with tiny heads that didn't grow in proportion to the length and width of the snake. Whether any of these were ball pythons, I am unsure.

I think 'power feeding' needs to be considered by species. What is true for a boa, or for a Burm, is NOT necessarily true for a ball python.

If you do not see any external indicators of unhealthy growth--ie, the snake is not obese, the snake does not have pinhead syndrome--then there is no reason to believe that there are any internal indicators, either. In other words, feeding a hatchling as much as it will eat in order to get it up to breeding size by the 2nd, or even the first, year...may not have any impact on the snake's health or longevity at all. In fact, there is no reason to think that it does.

Are you sure that underfeeding a snake, in addition to keeping it smaller, doesn't adversely effect its lifespan? We don't know that, either.

I'd rather buy a young snake from someone over feeding than someone under feeding.

With my few snakes, I try to feed as the snake appears to want to be fed.

I have two snakes from the same breeder, very close to the same age.

One of them is ready for food about every 7-10 days. She weighs about 800 gms. She has an average ball python build.

The other one is 1100 gms. She is fairly chunky looking. She starts actively hunting for food every 4 days. Let her go 6 days without and she gets majorly snappy and evil. Her head is broader and substantially longer than the 800gm female and her body is a good 6 inches longer. Her head size is actually bigger in proportion to her body than the female that doesn't eat as much.

I think that snakes are like humans--they have individual appetities and bodies. I offer food every 4-5 days, and if there are no takers it makes my opossum very happy.

Once at a reptile expo I was looking at some corns that were as thick as ball pythons, if not more. The corns were obese, so obese that it was hard to look at them because they were truly grotesque. I consider that to be "scumbag power feeding" at work.

On the other hand, my yearling albino female went through a phase where she wanted a small rat every 3 days, and I let her have them.

As others have said, it is species dependent, and situational. If the breeder is not putting the health of his animals first, I would not buy from him. If any of his animals appear to be in poor health (either obese, underfed, or otherwise ill) I would not buy from him. I simply move on to the tables that have healthy, attractive animals.