Pied options, breeding tips.

Heyyy guys. Ive been on these forums daily soaking in the info and I have a honest question.

I have 3 ball pythons. One male pied (320 grams) one female pied (600 grams) and a female normal (300 grams)

Origionally I thought of just breeding my male pied to my female pied and just have a nice clutch full of pieds. Butttt the more ive been on here the more it seems that might not be my best move. It almost seems as breeding a spider or and albino or something to my male or female might be better to get spiders het for pied or normals het for albino and pied? How do recessives to recessives work? Obviously with the weights I still have a while before I can breed, so I think I will probably make one more pickup before then. Just trying to kind of get a idea of where the pied market is going. Thanks!!!

:snake:

i would get a couple morph females. males can breed with more then one female so if i were you i would get a female mojave because in my opinion the mojave pied is the best pied combo. If you can afford it get a spinner so you can get spiders and pinstripes het pied. then pick up a pastel het pied for your female or just breed your pied to her.

I would breed the pied to the pied, sell the babies, and use the $$$ to pick up some new girls for your boy. :gj:

like what kind of new girls? :P

I might pick up some other female morph or het for my male pied. Any ideas? whats the weight requirements?

pied combos can be difficult. i haven't seen too many impressive pied combos except for the albino pied or the axanthic pied but those are both double recessive...

i would probably just breed the pieds and make more pieds. or you can buy an albino female and sell norms double het for pied / albino!!

expensive hets much =o

edit: actually. i would just make albino/pied double hets!!! sell those hets - with that cheddar, buy some double co-doms

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Originally Posted by h00blah

pied combos can be difficult. i haven't seen too many impressive pied combos except for the albino pied or the axanthic pied but those are both double recessive...

i would probably just breed the pieds and make more pieds. or you can buy an albino female and sell norms double het for pied / albino!!

expensive hets much =o

edit: actually. i would just make albino/pied double hets!!! sell those hets - with that cheddar, buy some double co-doms

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so I was right you can get a double het normal. Weird! so how exactly would that factor into producing an albino pied? Would you have to breed them together? Or back to the parent? Can snakes be bred to family (as opposed to humans or mammals) without any adverse affects?

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Originally Posted by ru8fru

so I was right you can get a double het normal. Weird! so how exactly would that factor into producing an albino pied? Would you have to breed them together? Or back to the parent? Can snakes be bred to family (as opposed to humans or mammals) without any adverse affects?

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albino to pied would give you all double hets.
breeding your double hets together would give you a 1 in 16 chance of hitting albino pieds.

if you end up going for albino pieds you want to hold back all your females to better your chances.

I have to go with loonunit. Breed the Pieds, trade/sell them. Get some Double/Triple morph snakes, then work with those with your 2 existing girls (who by then will be breeding weight).

With BPs females are where the money is at, you need a few, of various morphs/combos to really set yourself up, and getting breeding age morph females can be hard. So breed for cash/trade as soon as you get a chance then stock up on females and a few males.

I see I see. Anbody else? What about breeding related ball pythons together? No problems there? So is there any better way to get better odds then 1/16 on a albino pied other then having one already? If I breed my pieds together how many eggs could I expect from a first time mother? like 4? 4 pied babys, man thatd be soooooooo cool. Although for future pied combos. I kind of dislike spider pieds and clown pieds. Really like albino pieds and anthaxtic pieds. Any thoughts are helpful!!

Here are my male and female currently, The girl is the high white. Thanks again!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ture019-18.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ture005-42.jpg

cause you got a female pied breed a lesser spinner spider or any other morph that is co dom or dominate and then keep a baby male who would be 100 het pied and then next year breed him back to your female and get good looking pieds

There is NOTHING wrong with breeding a pied to a pied and getting a bunch of pieds. Sure sometimes the fun is in not knowing what you'll get, but you're for sure not going to hatch out a 5 egg clutch of only normals.

Piebald BPs are in huge demand and will always be crowd pleasers. If you're concerned about it from a financial perspective, think about how much you'll have to spend to get something BETTER than a visual recessive piebald to pair with either of your snakes.

dont know personally not apart of the pied craze...... I do appreciate them but dont think they are the as awesome as everyone else seems to..... breed pied to pied, sell the offspring and get a lavender albino and go for the 1 in 16 odds of a dreamcicle.... I dunno just look for stuff you like and watch how genes react to each other and come up with some ideas of your own.....

Thanks for the awesome replys guys. I really enjoyed reading your opinions. Putting them together kind of does want me to breed them together. They just look like a good couple ;)

What all could you possibly breed to pieds to eventually get a double morph (like the dreamsicle)

You know what would be amazing is breeding a genetic stripe to my pied and then getting a 1/16 at a stiped pied? (but not because its a pied) WOW that would look so cool imo. Possible?

bumppp. anyone?

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Originally Posted by mrobert875

albino to pied would give you all double hets.
breeding your double hets together would give you a 1 in 16 chance of hitting albino pieds.

if you end up going for albino pieds you want to hold back all your females to better your chances.

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keep in mind though, you will still have a shot at getting pieds AND albinos. as well as more hets. i still feel this is the best course moneywise and production wise :gj:

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

There is NOTHING wrong with breeding a pied to a pied and getting a bunch of pieds. Sure sometimes the fun is in not knowing what you'll get, but you're for sure not going to hatch out a 5 egg clutch of only normals.

Piebald BPs are in huge demand and will always be crowd pleasers. If you're concerned about it from a financial perspective, think about how much you'll have to spend to get something BETTER than a visual recessive piebald to pair with either of your snakes.

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don't get me wrong, pieds are awesome - however, imho, the only cool COMBO you can make with pieds are color changers - not pattern...
albinos (not lavanders) are 450 - 550 nowadays - not too expensive.. especially compared to the price of the clutch if he gets even just ONE egg lol.... since he'll be combining it with a pied, the pattern and color of the albino wouldn't be too important so he wouldn't even have to hold out for a very high quality albino.. he could either sell the double hets for mucho dinero then buy some double co-doms and have cooler breeding projects later on to make different things =D OOOOR hold a pair back and try to hit the odds - hets, pieds, albinos - (normals? albinos het pied? pieds het albino?)

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Originally Posted by ru8fru

What all could you possibly breed to pieds to eventually get a double morph (like the dreamsicle)

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alsoooo - i think dreamsicles are lavander albinos, not regular albinos :weirdface

i think :P

my thoughts are...

males:
albino spider/spider het pied/bumblebee

females:
spider het pied/albino

you can tell what i like! :rolleyes:

yeah dreamsicles are lavendar albino pieds.

Woah alan you must love spiders! I wouldnt mind getting a nice female spider ;)

any other thoughts? :)

Depends on what your doing...

If your trying to fund future projects, I would pick up some more female hets and jsut produce a ton of Pieds, or The albino/pied hets make good "cheese" (haha)

How ever, if your looking to expand you own collection I would go with

Bee's (Out comes being Bee het pied, Pastel het pied, spider het pied, spider, pastel, Normal)
Albino for double hets
Spinner/any of the "blast" combos
Anxtethic (spelling?)
Caramel albino? idk but that would look sweet a pied CA :D /drool

Just my thoughts on the situation

P.S. Im a huge fan of pieds and pied combos hoping to produce my own this coming year, both hets are finally of size (well, the female is)

honestly If i had the pieds to breed and sell..... I would breed them and get into other projects, with the money you would make you could get into lavender albinos, desert, several double co-dom crosses, or whatever you like. You wont sell as many pied crosses as you would pieds because of price.....but you could buy several double gene animals that could produce awesome stuff down the road.....

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Originally Posted by ru8fru

Woah alan you must love spiders! I wouldnt mind getting a nice female spider ;)

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was thinking more of albinoSPIED as the end result...

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Originally Posted by alan1

was thinking more of albinoSPIED as the end result...

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actually just saw my first albino spider the other day on here. Couldnt even imagine that as a pied :P

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Originally Posted by Emohooker

Depends on what your doing...

If your trying to fund future projects, I would pick up some more female hets and jsut produce a ton of Pieds, or The albino/pied hets make good "cheese" (haha)

How ever, if your looking to expand you own collection I would go with

Bee's (Out comes being Bee het pied, Pastel het pied, spider het pied, spider, pastel, Normal)
Albino for double hets
Spinner/any of the "blast" combos
Anxtethic (spelling?)
Caramel albino? idk but that would look sweet a pied CA :D /drool

Just my thoughts on the situation

P.S. Im a huge fan of pieds and pied combos hoping to produce my own this coming year, both hets are finally of size (well, the female is)

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Nice thoughts thanks! Only thing about hets is id have to buy them from a reputable breeder to guarantee genetics. It would be nice to pick up a couple more 100% het pied females and get them up to size.

Any ideas how much a carmel albino goes for?

Also anyone know how many females you can put a first time male with?

So you can breed a mother to a son without any problems?

still have yet to get a definite answer ;)

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Originally Posted by ru8fru

still have yet to get a definite answer ;)

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the answer is up to u. everyone asked u wut u want exactly..
are u trying to make some money? are u trying to expand ur collection? are u trying to breed cool animals? it depends on what u want...

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Originally Posted by h00blah

the answer is up to u. everyone asked u wut u want exactly..
are u trying to make some money? are u trying to expand ur collection? are u trying to breed cool animals? it depends on what u want...

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I was replying to the post above asking weather breeding ball pythons to their parents or siblings is ok... Which I asked a couple days ago and still am not sure.

Considering the frequency of line breeding in BPs and the supposed data saying you can do so for numerous generations without ill effects I would say yes, you can breed parent/sibs to a snake. I, personally, would do it, however I would avoid doing it for numerous generations.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Considering the frequency of line breeding in BPs and the supposed data saying you can do so for numerous generations without ill effects I would say yes, you can breed parent/sibs to a snake. I, personally, would do it, however I would avoid doing it for numerous generations.

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so basically your saying its ok to do a couple times but continuing to breed siblings together years and years or back to the parents for that matter.

All I know is what happens in humans with inbred and stuff.. I have yet to breed and wanted to make sure it wouldn't have any affects of the snakes being deformed, eggs going bad, snakes being wobbly (like the spider thing) or any illness.

Thanks a bunch!

BP genetics are likely a lot simpler than human ones. Inbreeding humans causes issues due to the frequency of us being heterozygous for recessive diseases, ultimately a homozygous is formed and we end up with whichever disease is coded for. BPs dont seem to have this issue. From what I have heard people have line bred for 13 generations, without ill effect.

But, again, I wouldnt suggest this. It's always good to put in new genetic lines.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

BP genetics are likely a lot simpler than human ones. Inbreeding humans causes issues due to the frequency of us being heterozygous for recessive diseases, ultimately a homozygous is formed and we end up with whichever disease is coded for. BPs dont seem to have this issue. From what I have heard people have line bred for 13 generations, without ill effect.

But, again, I wouldnt suggest this. It's always good to put in new genetic lines.

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Thank you that answers my question fully. appreciate it.

If you wanna take a stab at my origional question for this thread go for it! :P

Pretty sure I already suggested that you breed the pieds, trade/sell them for more morphs, and go from there. Pieds are recessive and desirable, so even in a couple years they arent going to drop too far in price.

nice nice.

If I was to get lets saying another recessive 100% het for pied.

Like a pastel 100% het for pied or maybe something else..

What would the odds of me producing a double homozygous animal like a pastel pied if I bred it to one of my pieds?

pastel 100% het for pieds seem "fairly" cheap and if you hit the odds would definitely pay for itself.

What do albinos 100% het for pied run?

Thank again to everyone who has participated in this thread, I really enjoy all the advice and opinions. I just want to soak in all knowledge possible before my snakes actually get big enough to where I can breed them :snake:

Pastel isnt recessive, it's Co-Dom. Thus if they inherit Pastel (50% of offspring will) then they show it. On top of that since 100% of your offspring will be getting 1 Pied Gene (from your Pied snake) and 50% will get the other Pied Gene (from the Het) so you have .5x.5 (from het pied and Pastel, ignore the 1.0 since it does nothing to the stats) = .25 Meaning 25% will be Pied Pastels. Not bad.

The cost of an Albino 100% het pied will be a lot...

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Pastel isnt recessive, it's Co-Dom. Thus if they inherit Pastel (50% of offspring will) then they show it. On top of that since 100% of your offspring will be getting 1 Pied Gene (from your Pied snake) and 50% will get the other Pied Gene (from the Het) so you have .5x.5 (from het pied and Pastel, ignore the 1.0 since it does nothing to the stats) = .25 Meaning 25% will be Pied Pastels. Not bad.

The cost of an Albino 100% het pied will be a lot...

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so I will be guaranteed a pastel pied out of that then?

They only things coming from that clutch would be pastels 100% het for pied and pastel pieds?

The percentages are percent likelihood, sorry. It means you have a 25% of any individual snake being a Pastel Pied (so if you have 8 eggs you have a .75^8 chance of no Pastel Pieds and a .25^8 chance of getting all Pastel Pieds (the math behind getting a certain number is trickier and I havent worked with it in a long time, so yeah.... Probability (nPr and nCr) is not my strong suit))).

Anyway, The offspring could be (using single genes in the format):

Het Pied Het Pied Pastel
Het Pied Het Pied Normal
Het Pied Normal Pastel
Het Pied Normal Normal

(This is how I do this all in my mind)

So that comes down to Pastel Pied, Pied, Pastel Het Pied, Het Pied. Comes out as 100% Het Pied 50% Het Pied 50% Pastel, thus .5x.5 (in this case this is the multiplication for all of them, this doesnt always happen) = .25

So you have the following probabilities of resulting snakes:

25% Pied Pastel
25% Pied
25% Pastel Het Pied
25% Het Pied

Again that last set is probability of the genotypic results. Phenotypic results are 25% Pastel Pied, 25% Pied, 25% Pastel, 25% Normal (what they look like, not the genes that are represented).

So, again, the bolded text are the % likelihoods of any snake having some genotype.
Sorry, I do things in a confusing way... This is why I usually dont show my work in math...

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

25% Pied Pastel
25% Pied
25% Pastel Het Pied
25% Het Pied

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this is all u need for pastel het pied to pied. those are ur results :gj:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

The percentages are percent likelihood, sorry. It means you have a 25% of any individual snake being a Pastel Pied (so if you have 8 eggs you have a .75^8 chance of no Pastel Pieds and a .25^8 chance of getting all Pastel Pieds (the math behind getting a certain number is trickier and I havent worked with it in a long time, so yeah.... Probability (nPr and nCr) is not my strong suit))).

Anyway, The offspring could be (using single genes in the format):

Het Pied Het Pied Pastel
Het Pied Het Pied Normal
Het Pied Normal Pastel
Het Pied Normal Normal

(This is how I do this all in my mind)

So that comes down to Pastel Pied, Pied, Pastel Het Pied, Het Pied. Comes out as 100% Het Pied 50% Het Pied 50% Pastel, thus .5x.5 (in this case this is the multiplication for all of them, this doesnt always happen) = .25

So you have the following probabilities of resulting snakes:

25% Pied Pastel
25% Pied
25% Pastel Het Pied
25% Het Pied

Again that last set is probability of the genotypic results. Phenotypic results are 25% Pastel Pied, 25% Pied, 25% Pastel, 25% Normal (what they look like, not the genes that are represented).

So, again, the bolded text are the % likelihoods of any snake having some genotype.
Sorry, I do things in a confusing way... This is why I usually dont show my work in math...

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wow thank you so much for taking the time to figure that out for me.

Very interesting, if by the time I breed I am able to pickup a pastel het pied it seems like it would definitely be worth it.

so since pastel is a codom if you breed a pastel pied to a pastel pied would you get a super pastel pied?

Also ive seen some pastel pieds that I thought looked noticeably different then my pied, but then others that just looked like a regular pied. Are you basically just looking for pastel blushing on the pattern?

Thanks again! :snake: and im sorry for the 20 questions

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Originally Posted by h00blah

this is all u need for pastel het pied to pied. those are ur results :gj:

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I think I like those results haha :please:

I was just trying to show my work. It really doesnt take me much time to figure out the genetics, I do it at work all the time and Ijust run it all through my head. But figured I'd show you how I get the results for genetic pairings, instead of just posting only the results and it looking like some magical knowledge other people have that you cant understand :P

Breeding 2 pastel het pieds together is easy to just do off the results from each gene's punnet square.

Likelihood they get Pastel gene:

25% Normal
50% Pastel
25% Super Pastel (typical Pp x Pp style square)

Likelihood they get Pied:
25% Normal
50% Het Pied
25% Pied (again, typical het x het square)

The 75% that form the Normal/Het Pied are all 66% Het Pied (that's the likelihood they are hets, because you cant tell the difference between Het Pied and Normal)

Combine these and you get:

18.75 Normal 66% Het Pied
6.25 Pied
37.5 Pastel 66% Het Pied
12.5 Pastel Pied
18.75 Super Pastel 66% Het Pied
6.75 Super Pastel Pied

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I was just trying to show my work. It really doesnt take me much time to figure out the genetics, I do it at work all the time and Ijust run it all through my head. But figured I'd show you how I get the results for genetic pairings, instead of just posting only the results and it looking like some magical knowledge other people have that you cant understand :P

Breeding 2 pastel het pieds together is easy to just do off the results from each gene's punnet square.

Likelihood they get Pastel gene:

25% Normal
50% Pastel
25% Super Pastel (typical Pp x Pp style square)

Likelihood they get Pied:
25% Normal
50% Het Pied
25% Pied (again, typical het x het square)

The 75% that form the Normal/Het Pied are all 66% Het Pied (that's the likelihood they are hets, because you cant tell the difference between Het Pied and Normal)

Combine these and you get:

18.75 Normal 66% Het Pied
6.25 Pied
37.5 Pastel 66% Het Pied
12.5 Pastel Pied
18.75 Super Pastel 66% Het Pied
6.75 Super Pastel Pied

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Wow just unlimited potential. Thanks again. I think im starting to get it. I get the punnet square things with recessives, but mixing that with doms and codoms is what gets me :P

Actually one of my g/f's friends has a pastel. I know she doesnt take very good care of it and never see's it (lives at her moms house) I wonder if I could get it off her hands for like 50 bucks or something.

If it's a female, totally... if it's a male: Dont bother breeding it to your females. Why would you? You can just trade one of your pied offspring off for a pastel het pied (which you can breed to your Pied, try and get a pastel pied, then breed that to your pastel het pied and try for a super pastel pied), or for some other morph containing pastel. Those pieds are worth a good bit, everyone loves pieds, and why waste breeding it to anything else right now, breed the pieds, and you can potentially pay for the hobby for a couple years and trade for new morphs.

pastel pieds are HAWT. jkobylka has some haawt hawt hawt pastel pieds.


u should check his site for hets :gj:

and watch his youtube vids :bow:

I would tend to lean pied on pied this year and next year expand out....adding new snakes to collection does not mean immediate ready for breeding, sometimes transitions, new home etc can delay that process longer then you think. Just my two cents....

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Originally Posted by Kysenia

I would tend to lean pied on pied this year and next year expand out....adding new snakes to collection does not mean immediate ready for breeding, sometimes transitions, new home etc can delay that process longer then you think. Just my two cents....

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Right now im shooting for not this winter but next winter. But wont dont it till they are plump and ready

Here is what I would do if I was in your shoes. Get a female albino. Grow everyone up. Then put your male with your normal, Pied and Albino. Give em some Barry White time with each female. Then you will have 100% het Pieds (from the normal), All pieds (from the Pied female) and DH Albino/Pieds (from the Albino). Choose what snakes your going to hold back. ALSO With Pieds, just because you breed a high white to a high white DOESN NOT mean they will all come out high white. It is compleatly random how much white there will be. Personally I would hold back the low white females and sell the high white (They go for more) I would also recommend holding back ATLEAST 1.2 DH Albino/Pieds to breed back to each other. Like others have said, Inbreeding does not cause the issues seen in humans. Then sell off the rest of the offspring. You should have a decent amount that you can invest in feeders/rat rack, Buy a morph, or my favorite hookers and blow (lol ok Im jk about that part) Remember the biggest rule to breeding. Breed for what YOU like and you will always be happy. I would recomend getting a book called The Complete Ball Python: A Comprehensive Guide to Care, Breeding and Genetic Mutations. Here is a link to it on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ball-.../dp/9780971319 . I beleave it is a must have and it will explain ALOT including genetics ect.