THAT is a hot spot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/002-7.jpg

holy crap that is hot

don't know where you are located but that is out of control, hope no little guys/girls are in there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPJ

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/002-7.jpg

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my ackie's hot spot is over 150.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJ_Bizarre

don't know where you are located but that is out of control, hope no little guys/girls are in there

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Noob.

Yeah, my hot spots range from 140 - 150F.

You should post pics of your setup/animals. We all love seeing varanids/teiids!

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJ_Bizarre

don't know where you are located but that is out of control, hope no little guys/girls are in there

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Lots to learn grasshopper!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJ_Bizarre

don't know where you are located but that is out of control, hope no little guys/girls are in there

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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It's a monitors cage. That temp is fine for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

You should post pics of your setup/animals. We all love seeing varanids/teiids!
Chris

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I'll snap some tonight. :gj:

The little sav in his 40 breeder critter cage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/003-9.jpg

Aww :aww: :)

I think I see him swimming!

I can't wait until he gets big for you :)

What is he eating now?

~ Mac

He is eating crickets, mealworms, hard boiled eggs and thawed pinkies.

savannah's are primarily insectivores right? not trying to sound stupid just have very little experience with monitors

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jjmitchell

savannah's are primarily insectivores right? not trying to sound stupid just have very little experience with monitors

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When younger they eat insects with the smaller rodents. But as they age their diet does consist of larger rodents more often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

When younger they eat insects with the smaller rodents. But as they age their diet does consist of larger rodents more often.

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They are primarly insects eaters,and should only be feed rodent sparingly.


http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...sett/002-2.jpg


These pictures where taken in a outdoor enclosure on an 85 degree day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gbassett

They are primarly insects eaters,and should only be feed rodent sparingly.

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WHAT????!?!?!?

Where are all these people getting this info?????

Huh? :O
I feed mainly a rodent diet.
Even with babies that eat crickets, they should still be getting whole rodents.

Wow. Hot spot I have is too hot. These should be fed insects.......Sounds like the petstore by me that insists corn snakes will eat crickets and don't need to be fed anything else. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

WHAT????!?!?!?

Where are all these people getting this info?????

---

May I ask you the same question?Where are you getting your info from?Is it what you heard or read about,or is this based on personal experince?


Savanna monitors are a little different from other African monitors,in the fact they can not be baited.Which means carrion is not apart of there deit.They very rarely eat lizards,frogs,and other small vertebrate.Why are there no Savanna monitors over 6 years old in captivity,and why are they not being bread(even by advanced keepers)?The reason why is because they have a more specialized diet than we originally thought.


Greg

I have owned several monitor species.....and NONE of them...were on an Insect based diet.

The fact that you truly believe that is quite astonishing.


And its not bread....its bred.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

WHAT????!?!?!?

Where are all these people getting this info?????

---

.................................. Here is one source of that info


CISSE,M. Bulletin de L'insitute Fondamental d'Afrique Noire. 1972 34 (2): 503-515. The diet of
Varanids in Senegal. Translated by Daniel Bennett
on page 21. Its a translated to english in the field study on the diet of Savannah and Nile monitors that proves how specialized an invert feeder Savannahs are.
http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/men...tt_undated.pdf

Heres an excerpt that cuts to the meat of it all. I added the common names that are highlighted in red.

"In total we analysed the stomach contents of 28 animals. The results are presented by monitor
and by month in table I. The identified prey was made up exclusively of invertebrates except
for the eggs of Agama agama and V. exanthematicus. The following were found
1. Insects.
a. Coleopera:
- Carabids: Ctenosta senegalense, Megacephala megacephela, Scarites sp.......................... (Ground beetles)
- Curculionids: Episus sp......................................... ( Weevles)
- Dytiscids: Cybister sp............................................ ( Water beetles)
- Meloids: Psalydolytta fusca.................................. ( Blister beetles)
- Scaribids: Adoretus sp. Anomala sp. Oryctes sp. Schizonycha africana ............................ (Scarab Beetles)
- Tenebrionids: Pimelia senegalensis, Phrynocolus dentatus, Vieta senegalensis............................. (Darkling Beetles)
b. Dictyoptera: Mantes: Epitenodera gambiensis........................................ .. ( Mantids)
c. Hymenoptera: Aphids: Xylocopa sp............................. ( Carpenter bees )
d. Lepidotera: chiefly Chenilles and Sphingids................................ ( Moths)
e. Orthoptera:
- Acridids: Acanthacris ruficornis citrina, Anacridium sp., Kraussaria angulifera, Cataloipus sp.,
Oedaleus nigeriensis, Humbe tenuicornis.................................... (Locusts)
- Gryllids: Gryllus bimaculatus................................ (Field Crickets)
- Pyrgomorphids: Zonocerus variegatus............................. (Grasshopper)
- Tettigonids: Homorocoryphus nitidulus vicinus.......... (African Bush Cricket)
2. Arachnids: a scorpion of the family Buthidae.
3. Myriapods: Diplopodes (Iules) and Chilipods (Scolopendra)................................... (Millipedes and Centipedes)
4. Molluscs: Gasteropods pulmones Helicarionines.................................... ... (Snails)
5. The eggs of Varanus exanthematicus and Agama agama
In order of number, prey was distributed as follows;
Myriapods 48.32%
Insects 45.49% of which 21.22% were Coleopterids, 15.21% Lepidoterans (Chenilles) and
8.84% Orthopterans.
Eggs of Agama and V. exanthematicus 3.75%.
Gasteropod molluscs 2.35%.
Arachnid scorpions 0.11%.
These results interpret the respective percentages of prey items, but they do not give
information on their distribution in the predators. This we have indicated by the degrees of
prescence (LESCURE). The number of animals containing each prey is given. In other words,
it shows the percentage of animals containing each prey.
Table II shows the different prey with their percentages and frequency of prescence. The prey
most frequently consumed by V. exanthematicus in the area where our research was based
was the Coleopterids (64.28%), the Myriapods (53.57%), larvae of Lepidopterans (46.42%)
and the Orthopterans (35.71%).
If we consider this diet by month we need to establish whether it reflects the availability of the
large invertebrates of that period. In fact, the Coleopterans, larvae of Sphingides and the
Myriopods, which are abundant during the first half of the winter constitute the main items of
prey during this season, whilst they are absent from the intestines towards the end of the
season, replaced at that time by the Orthopterans which become more numerous. Otherwise,
except for the reptile eggs (Agama and Varanus) we did not find any trace of vertebrates in the
diet of V.exanthematicus. This species feeds exclusively on invertebrates and eggs (including
those of its own species). Towards the end of December all feeding ceases until favourable
conditions return.
Is this diet different from that of Varanus nilocticus? This is what we are going to find by
examining the stomach contents of the second species......................"

Heres another two field studys on the subject
http://library.mampam.com/bennett200...thematicus.pdf
http://library.mampam.com/bennettbullchicherpsoc.pdf

You do realize that first study was form 1964??


I dont understand why it has to be such a pissing contest.

Feed your damn monitor whatever you want. Talk to 99.9999% of monitor breeders....see what they say.

There is no pissing contest here at all Patrick just teaching you something not so "new".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slayer

There is no pissing contest here at all Patrick just teaching you something not so "new".

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Yea... everyone knows they knew more about reptiles in the 60's than they do now. Silly Patrick :8:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

Yea... everyone knows they knew more about reptiles in the 60's than they do now. Silly Patrick :8:

---

So you're suggesting that in the past 50 years V. Exanthematicus has gone through an evolutionary spurt and re-adapted to a vertebrate diet???

Looks like he totally hates inverts...
YouTube - I laugh when people say they are slow

BTW the basking spot there is about 147f currently.

Quote:

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Talk to 99.9999% of monitor breeders....see what they say.

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hrm... are those youtube experts like this?
YouTube - Sunny's New Cage

Quote:

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So you're suggesting that in the past 50 years V. Exanthematicus has gone through an evolutionary spurt and re-adapted to a vertebrate diet???

---

Really? Thats the only reason you can come up with that explains why the information is outdated. I read a book that was published in the 1960's saying small wooden boxes with just a lamp over top was fine for all snakes. Oh and they said hobbyists could keep their snakes on a diet of raw strips of meat bought from the grocery store.

It is not becuase they have evolved, but because your knowledge and research has evolved. What we thought we knew 50 years ago is almost comical now.

Old research becomes outdated. We have researched, studied and observed new ways of keeping our herps, and for the most part these ways are better and help our herps to thrive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

Really? Thats the only reason you can come up with that explains why the information is outdated. I read a book that was published in the 1960's saying small wooden boxes with just a lamp over top was fine for all snakes. Oh and they said hobbyists could keep their snakes on a diet of raw strips of meat bought from the grocery store.

---

No I just think you're comparing apples to oranges....

One - a scientific study done in the wild with little to nothing that can be assumed.... stomach contents are stomach contents.... you're suggesting that their findings were either wrong... or have changed.

versus

Two - books written by herptoculturalist that are based on theory, trial and error, and a LOT of assumptions muddled

Personally I would stick with the first since it's based on facts not speculations and until I see otherwise in regards to field research then the 1960's data stands. Which as of last year the only reports I've heard from people tracking/observing them in the wild seems to support the original data.

Quote:

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It is not becuase they have evolved, but because your knowledge and research has evolved. What we thought we knew 50 years ago is almost comical now.

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so where is this current research?

What im not understanding is how the second two reports i linked (by Daniel Bennett) which were published since 2000 are being ignored/disregarded.

I guess

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I have owned several monitor species.....and NONE of them...were on an Insect based diet.

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trumps any actual scientific studys on the subject lol :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slayer

What im not understanding is how the second two reports i linked (by Daniel Bennett) which were published since 2000 are being ignored/disregarded.

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Oops didn't see those... but guess just adds to my point... there hasn't been anything since 1960 to prove he original findings false... in fact subsequent studies have only provided further evidence to support the original study.

Thanks Slayer for the info.

Quote:

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I have owned several monitor species.....and NONE of them...were on an Insect based diet.

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Not all Monitors have the same diet.

Quote:

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trumps any actual scientific studys on the subject lol

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LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

. Talk to 99.9999% of monitor breeders....see what they say.

---

I have spoken to a few people who do breed monitors,and the only 2 that have actually hatched out Savanna monitors feed mostly insects.I'm not against the rodent diet,just for Savannas(and a few other species)

The study that is being quoted here was done in the early 2000s


But as you said go ahead and feed your Savanna what you want,just don't complain when it is dead in a few years.And dont advise others that is what they should feed there's

Greg

Interesting little debate here.

Yes we know exanthematicus has a primarily insectivorous diet in the wild.

Komodoensis has a primarily carrion based diet in the wild.

I've seen video of wild salvator feeding on stuff so rotten you wouldn't be able to stomach the smell.

I am also willing to bet that my ornatus would never encounter a domestic rat in the wilds of Africa.

Truth be told, if varanids are provided the proper basking temperatures and room for exercise, there isn't much they cannot digest.

I haven't heard of SDZ diet being found in the wild, yet many varanids thrive on it.

There's my 2 cents.

Chris

ps - that video of "Sunny's new cage" is absolutely deplorable. It doesn't look like a rabbit lives in there to me...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

WHAT????!?!?!? Where are all these people getting this info?????

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I have owned several monitor species.....and NONE of them...were on an Insect based diet.
The fact that you truly believe that is quite astonishing.

---

Hi Patrick,

One of the authors of some of the studies mentioned in this thread is a guy named Daniel, and his published findings were based on years of observation of V. exanthematicus in the wilds of Africa. His data was collected through both primary observation of behavior, as well as examination of other factors like stomach contents and fecal samples.

In the years he spent over there before the start of the Butaan project, he found over and over again that the Bosc seeks out inverts even when many types of prey are available. He found that the Bosc, unlike almost any other species of monitor, is not an opportunistic feeder, does not feed on whatever is available (including carrion as gbassett mentioned), and is generally not the garbage disposal that many make it out to be (despite other monitors being just that). To make generalizations about the diet and behavior of V. exanthematicus based on the diet and behavior of other monitors would simply be inconsistent and incorrect. The Bosc simply does not eat the way other monitors do.

Given those years of observations by himself and other people who have found identical data, I don't see this as much of a debate, rather either an acceptance or an ignoring of fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Feed your damn monitor whatever you want.

---

This is, unfortunately, what most people do. And judging by all the obese, sick looking, slovenly Boscs I see on Youtube and forums, it doesn't seem to be successful.

The point I think people miss is that it's not about "who knows more about monitors" and "my information is correct and yours is wrong". It's unfortunately that so many Boscs die or become sick due to misinformation and from care that does not remotely match their habitat and dietary needs, that a lot of people become interested in finding out better ways to actually keep their animal alive and active/healthy. This includes reading up on actual dietary habits of the animal in the wild in studies such as those mentioned here, rather than continuing to rely on the pet industry to tell us how to care for the animal (which coincidentally includes purchasing all their products).

Hope that helps.

It should also be noted that the initial "e" in V. exanthematicus is lowercase, though it seems autocorrect in these posts keeps capitalizing it.

I know very little about monitors, but I have noticed that almost every thread on the Monitors and Tegus forum becomes a huge debate over the same thing over and over.

I'm not trying to get into anything that's happening on this thread but I'm just saying. I've read every post on the thread so far and even though I don't get involved in this I find it quite worthless and time wasting when people debate over this stuff.

Sending them a PM of the other threads containing good info, maybe throw in a couple caresheets, and debate it out that way. Not trying to piss anyone off, just a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I know very little about monitors, but I have noticed that almost every thread on the Monitors and Tegus forum becomes a huge debate over the same thing over and over.

I'm not trying to get into anything that's happening on this thread but I'm just saying. I've read every post on the thread so far and even though I don't get involved in this I find it quite worthless and time wasting when people debate over this stuff.

Sending them a PM of the other threads containing good info, maybe throw in a couple caresheets, and debate it out that way. Not trying to piss anyone off, just a thought.

---

Now...

There's a good, level-headed, and neutral thought!

I was thinking the same thing, Tiff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I have noticed that almost every thread on the Monitors and Tegus forum becomes a huge debate over the same thing over and over.

---

It's interesting you call it a debate, as a debate implies that both sides have opinions or ideas which have merit and depending on the art of persuasion can be considered more valid.

In this case, maybe those that feel that a rodent diet and lower basking spot have merit could let us know the findings from their own trips to Africa to observe the Bosc, and we could debate those against Daniel's previously mentioned findings from his time in Africa.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by allergenic

It's interesting you call it a debate, as a debate implies that both sides have opinions or ideas which have merit and depending on the art of persuasion can be considered more valid.

---

Well I sort of consider it a debate since some people try saying its good to have rodents in the diet and others are saying they think insects are what it should only eat.

But I might've chosen the wrong word, I just wanted to give my opinion to what I think. Keeping monitors is definitely not an easy thing from how much detail you have to go into with their husbandry and with feeding, but I don't see the reason to fight over what is better to do and what is best for the monitor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by allergenic

It's interesting you call it a debate, as a debate implies that both sides have opinions or ideas which have merit and depending on the art of persuasion can be considered more valid.

---

i think she was trying to be nice

I'm going to agree with this one. Why are you arguing over something so stupid? Not saying your monitors health isn't a concern, but some of you guys are like two year olds in how you explain why your method is superior. This just puts people on the defense and makes them react. Why not just talk about it like adults, citing info from both sides and then determining from multiple outlooks what is the best. This is how bad info gets spread, and how tempers get flared up.

BTW, whats with the dog cage set up? Seems like a horrible way to house a monitor no?

I've got no dog in this fight, because I don't keep these critters, but http://www.savannahmonitor.org supports a diet heavy in insects and lean in rodents.

Quote:

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Feeding – Rodents

The feeding of rodents to a Savannah Monitor is an increasingly controversial topic, centered around both profit motive and a profound lack of knowledge. No one is sure the origins of the idea to feed vertebrates to an invertebrate feeder, but it’s evident today that the few loud, dominant proponents of an all-rodent feeding regimen actually own lucrative frozen rodent feeder businesses. It would be worth it to maintain a healthy skepticism when receiving any information on this monitor, before determining just who has what financial stake in the purchases you are making for your reptile.

As Bennett observed and was quoted as saying in the introduction to this section, the Savannah Monitor is an invertebrate feeder and had fed on mammals with a frequency of less than .2%. If the animal feeds primarily on insects and mollusks in the wild, why feed it anything else in captivity?

The first argument is that keepers in captivity have a great opportunity to offer food items to the monitor that are “nutritionally superior”, an opportunity to give the monitor variety it doesn’t have in the wild. It is argued that rodents are part of this nutritionally superior feeding plan.

The truth is nothing but the opposite. It doesn’t take a zoology degree to take a quick look at our “success” in captive care of the Savannah Monitor and see a long string of obesity, subsequent health problems and causes of death related to feeding monitors a diet incredibly high in fat. If this rodent-based feeding plan is supposed to be superior, are we really doing all that well? Compare the lean body structure and limb strength of any wild Savannah Monitor with a tubby, fat-bodied, stick-legged captive, and it will be more than evident that something in the food/metabolic cycle is severely off.

The second argument is that the Savannah Monitor only eats insects and mollusks due to low availability of rodents in the wild.

On the contrary, rodents and many other prey are plentiful in the regions in which the monitor inhabits, and the senses of the Savannah Monitor are acute in that a quick flick of the tongue and the monitor would know exactly what sort of animal is at the bottom of the burrow it is peeking into.

As has already been said, the Savannah Monitor is simply a specialized feeder, unlike the majority of other monitors. It eats what is best for it, and what its body has adapted to eat, namely insects and mollusks.

---

Quote:

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Feeding – Diet

As we have covered, the Savannah Monitor is hunter of invertebrates and the majority of its diet will consist of insects found while foraging throughout the day.

Aside from the cost of caging, the cost of maintaining this medium to large lizard solely on its proper diet of insects, mollusks, and crustaceans is enough to make anyone think twice about keeping a Savannah Monitor. Owning several or more self sustaining colonies of insects will be a necessity. Being such a specialized feeder, it’s one of the many reasons that this monitor should never be looked upon as a “beginner monitor”.

Insects

For insect prey items, we can suggest a combination of roaches, crickets, large mealworms, locusts (mainly available in Europe), grasshoppers, millipedes, and centipedes as being most nutritionally complete.

For most of us, the easiest of these to acquire and/or keep in larger quantities will be crickets and roaches. Crickets are such a staple insect in the reptile feeding industry that their availability is quite high. While we realize that the concept of a breeding roach colony is not appetizing to a keeper’s family, roaches are extremely easy to maintain. Checking into species of roach such as the popular Blaptica dubia, you will find availability of non-climbing, non-flying roaches whose enclosures do not produce a foul smell. Roaches have a fantastic meat to shell ratio.

The biggest complication in feeding a monitor that hunts invertebrates is how to sustain an invertebrate-based diet as the monitor gets older (and therefore larger). The idea of a large monitor trying to sustain itself chasing comparatively tiny crickets around an enclosure is enough to give anyone a chuckle. One option is to move to larger insects. Blaberus craniifer and Blaberus fusca are great feeder roaches that are similar to Blaptica dubia and larger than Madagascar hissers. Also, at age 2-3 switching over to more shelled items to increase variety will be beneficial.

Thiaminase

Though shelled items will be part of the staple list of prey items in a Savannah Monitor’s diet, it would be worth it to mention prey items containing Thiaminase, and to suggest using them sparingly. Thiaminase is an enzyme that breaks down Thiamin/Vitamin B1, and is found more in fresh water animals. Too much thiaminase can lead to Thiamin Deficiency Syndrome.

Though we have not seen harm in sparingly feeding some types of foods containing Thiaminase, anything above “sparingly” is questionable. Harm due to thiaminase overload is seen more in situations like private keeping of puffer fish, as they rely quite heavily on diets of seafood.

Mollusks

Snails are a Savannah Monitor favorite, and most contain low to no levels of thiaminase. Oysters have also been used, and contain little to no Thiaminase. Mussels and clams are also fed by a number of keepers, but contain varying levels of the enzyme. The Savannah Monitor has no problem taking these items whole.

Crustaceans/Shellfish

Crayfish/crawfish/yabbies and crab are great components of a varied diet. As with all non-insect prey items, however, shellfish should be used as an addition to the diet rather than a staple. Crawfish/etc. can be purchased online and shipped to your door in large quantities, and can be fed to the monitor whole.

Fiddler/hermit crabs can also be used. Asian markets are a great place to come by shellfish. Shrimp should be fed heads and all, as a whole animal (not just the tail).

For younger monitors, the prey item can be cut up as long as it is still fed in its entirety.

Sources of your food

Care should be taken to verify the sources of your food! Due to the prevalence of pesticides and chemicals, taking in feeders simply from outside your home is generally a bad idea. Also make sure to buy items such as seafood and avians from a reputable vendor.

As discussed above, rotate fish markets to vary the types and degrees of possible chemicals and/or toxins the fish have been exposed to.

---

Even Pro-Exotics feeds at least their juvies a diet that's heavier on inverts rather than rodents:

http://www.proexotics.com/care_savannah.html

Quote:

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Feeding- We feed baby and juvie monitors 6 days a week. Four days on feeder insects (roaches are a fave and easy to work with) and two days on thawed rodents. Adults get fed according to need and body weight.

---

This seems like a more healthy way of feeding. After reading all of this debate I got a little interested and began looking into a little, this for sure seems more balanced. But then again, what do I know :P ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

BTW, whats with the dog cage set up? Seems like a horrible way to house a monitor no?

---

an example of what is out there and how badly some people house and treat their monitors... and still refuse to listen to advice from others even scientific reports on the subject... and then wonder why the animal dies... the animal in the video did die... and the girl plans to get another one and still refuses advice.

I use her as a prime example when anyone cites something to be true based on "what's out there..." people like here are generally what is out there keeping V. exanthematicus which is why 99% of them die in the first year.

The other youtube expert I use is the girl who dresses her Savs up as super hero's...

I believe that the reason so many of these threads turn into debates, arguments and bashing is because they usually start out like this:

Noob: "I'm twelve and just bought a water monitor. It's in an aquarium with newspaper and I keep it at room temperature because we have no A/C. I feed it a fuzzy mouse once a week, when I feed my ball python. Am I doing everything okay?"

Experienced, Passionate Enthusiast: "No. You should......."

Noob: "That's not what the pet store guy told me; Piss off"

After over 30 years (almost 40 I'm afraid to admit) of keeping reptiles, I have had no reward greater than the keeping of varanids and teiids. They are on a whole other level from other herps; and I find other keepers who are serious to be equally as passionate and concerned as I am about these fascinating wonderful animals. We want all of them to thrive and be happy because they are so truly amazing.

If you haven't kept monitors, and kept them properly, you wouldn't understand what I'm saying. But for those who have and do, well, you can see them right here in this forum voicing their concern for the well being of these magnificent creatures.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Sending them a PM of the other threads containing good info, maybe throw in a couple caresheets, and debate it out that way. Not trying to piss anyone off, just a thought.

---

Why would you want to keep it private?If the information was kept solely on pm any time you dont agree,no one would learn from there mistakes.There is so much bad info on Savannas its not funny.I here a lot of people trying to pass them off as beginner monitors and easy to care for,when in fact they are one of the more difficult monitors to care for.

Chris,that was very well said

Greg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Well I sort of consider it a debate since some people try saying its good to have rodents in the diet and others are saying they think insects are what it should only eat.

---

As I said in the part of my last post you neglected to quote, it will become a debate when the "Boscs eat rodents" people publish their own statistics from their visits to Africa and observations on the Bosc diet. Until then, it's a really just a discussion of fact vs. fantasy/opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I don't see the reason to fight over what is better to do and what is best for the monitor.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

I'm going to agree with this one. Why are you arguing over something so stupid?

---

I haven't been on forums in a number of months, and just from a glance at the first page of posts on here since I've been gone, the majority of threads are "I have ___ kind of monitor and it's not drinking/not eating/listless/fat/sick/etc." The majority of that majority being threads about Savannah Monitors.

Reading those threads, the majority of responses are by people who either a) don't keep monitors or b) are suggesting more of the same ideas that got the animal sick in the first place.

While you may think it's "stupid", there are some people (myself included) who get tired of seeing the kind of pet industry-based advice that contributes to mountains upon mountains of dead monitors in any given year. So pardon if it seems that some get over-excited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by allergenic

As I said in the part of my last post you neglected to quote, it will become a debate when the "Boscs eat rodents" people publish their own statistics from their visits to Africa and observations on the Bosc diet. Until then, it's a really just a discussion of fact vs. fantasy/opinion.





I haven't been on forums in a number of months, and just from a glance at the first page of posts on here since I've been gone, the majority of threads are "I have ___ kind of monitor and it's not drinking/not eating/listless/fat/sick/etc." The majority of that majority being threads about Savannah Monitors.

Reading those threads, the majority of responses are by people who either a) don't keep monitors or b) are suggesting more of the same ideas that got the animal sick in the first place.

While you may think it's "stupid", there are some people (myself included) who get tired of seeing the kind of pet industry-based advice that contributes to mountains upon mountains of dead monitors in any given year. So pardon if it seems that some get over-excited.

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I think its "stupid" because no one can learn when there being offended, and when you talk to someone in the wrong "tone", or whatever you would like to call it people tend to get a bad taste in their mouth and react. I completely understand why you get "excited" but do the community a favor and take it down a notch. Their are ways to teach people without being hostile, and negative. I know if I am trying to learn and someone calls me stupid, or makes me feel in anyway "offended" its hard for me to take them or their opinions seriously. Whether they are correct or not, I still would rather learn from a level headed individual then a know-it-all jamming facts down my throat and making me feel stupid for not knowing/understanding. This is how bad information remains in circulation. Who wants to believe/learn from a jerk? I know I don't. So next time you want to get "excited", do us all (monitors included) a favor and don't and take a deep breath cuz guess what? Your reaction just adds to the fire and just makes the fire bigger. Non-reaction is key in life, and staying calm and assertive is what gets the job done not "getting excited" and trying to jam information down peoples throats. Don't let your emotions get the best of you, truth is truth, and getting mad at people who are "unaware" is pointless.

Btw, this is NO way shape or form directed at allergenic.

It's hard to teach when people don't care to listen. There's a core group who've posted in this thread as well as pretty much ever other varanid thread and it's easy to see where there frustration comes from(although i think the info was given factually and without attitude at first). Especially when you have know it all's coming in and spouting useless and incorrect information in an obnoxious manner.

Besides each time is just slightly different enough that the point of the discussion/argument/attempt at teaching people is well worth the time and effort for the sake of the animals. Even if often it feels like banging your head repeatedly against a wall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

I think its "stupid" because no one can learn when there being offended, and when you talk to someone in the wrong "tone", or whatever you would like to call it people tend to get a bad taste in their mouth and react. I completely understand why you get "excited" but do the community a favor and take it down a notch. Their are ways to teach people without being hostile, and negative. I know if I am trying to learn and someone calls me stupid, or makes me feel in anyway "offended" its hard for me to take them or their opinions seriously. Whether they are correct or not, I still would rather learn from a level headed individual then a know-it-all jamming facts down my throat and making me feel stupid for not knowing/understanding. This is how bad information remains in circulation. Who wants to believe/learn from a jerk? I know I don't. So next time you want to get "excited", do us all (monitors included) a favor and don't and take a deep breath cuz guess what? Your reaction just adds to the fire and just makes the fire bigger. Non-reaction is key in life, and staying calm and assertive is what gets the job done not "getting excited" and trying to jam information down peoples throats. Don't let your emotions get the best of you, truth is truth, and getting mad at people who are "unaware" is pointless.

Btw, this is NO way shape or form directed at allergenic.

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The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

Averages would tend to correct for sparse populations of prey within a given area.

Also refer to Varanoid lizards of the World (2004) and it says they're foragers and eat mostly arthropods and molluscs.

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Originally Posted by Moofins07

The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moofins07

The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

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.............................. I guess you didnt even read the study. Niles in the SAME COLLECTION AREA ate plenty of rodents yet the Savs did not.

From page 24
"We have analysed the stomach contents of 32 V. nilocticus. The prey are listed in table III. We
have ascertained that this species eats invertebrates like V. exanthematicus. But in addition it
takes vertebrate prey. Among the prey ingested, we have identified;
Fish - Protopterus annectens.
Bachtrians - frogs and toads
A turtle - Pelusios subniger.
Lizards - Agama agama, Mabuya and V. exanthematicus.
A bird of the genus Ploceus.
Murides...............(RODENTS)"

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Originally Posted by SPJ

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/002-7.jpg

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that IS a hot spot :gj: