Woma X Woma Poll

I know there are some folks around who have done this pairing, but there seems to be a lot of confusion. As a result, I am going to try a poll, and see what answers we get.
Please answer this poll ONLY if you personally have done a Woma X Woma pairing. NOT if you have done a hidden gene woma X hidden gene woma pairing, and NOT if you know someone who has crossed womas--answer only for yourself.
Thanks!

I have a female that is due to lay on July 4th. I'll let you know if the eggs are good and in 60 days or so I'll let you know the results.

I was actually talking to Brian at BHB about this at the NARBC show in Arlington. He said that to his knowledge, none of the Woma-Woma breedings have produced a super. Kind of the same thing as the Spiders and the Pinstripes. Only the Hidden Gene Woma (which does not have a hidden gene, it's just a completely different morph) produces the Pearl which can not survive. Personally, I think the Hidden Gene Woma should have been renamed as it causes confusion and there isn't a hidden gene anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

I think the Hidden Gene Woma should have been renamed as it causes confusion and there isn't a hidden gene anyway.

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Can you clarify what "there isn't a hidden gene anyway" means? ... I've always been confused by the NERD hidden genes and how they're supposed to work.

Also, I though the lesser woma x woma survived?

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Can you clarify what "there isn't a hidden gene anyway" means? ... I've always been confused by the NERD hidden genes and how they're supposed to work.

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The HG Woma isnt the combination of a Hidden Gene and a Woma. It looked like a Woma, then they produced amazing animals from it, and thought it may have been from a Hidden Gene, however as it turned out it's the same gene.

So an HG Woma is like a Lemon Pastel and the regular Woma is like a Pastel, they're 2 different single gene morphs.

If it were called a "Stunner" instead of an HG Woma then there would be none of this goofy confusion. Any other name than "Hidden Gene" wouldnt leave everyone confused as to what it is. But that name stuck around, and isnt going to change unless everyone decides to change it, which even getting everyone from this site to rename it wouldnt be enough.

oooops...voted before i read...sorry

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Also, I though the lesser woma x woma survived?

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I want to know about this too... I've been wondering is people are trying to genetically diversify the HG Woma so that Pearls can be produced, and it would be cool if a Super Woma existed.

My understanding is that a super-pinstripe has actually been produced. Pinstripe is Dominant. The super looks like a pinstripe. :)

I also was under the impression that lemon pastel is just a line-bred color of pastel, and not a different gene. If you breed a lemon pastel to a pastel, don't you wind up with pastels and super-pastels that are simply intergrades? If it were a different gene, then even if you did get a super pastel from the cross, there should be distinct lemons and 'typical' pastels in the clutch, and I don't think that is the case.

But yes, "Hidden Gene Woma" has no hidden gene. It is simply not a woma. If you pop over to NERD's site and look at them, you will see that they don't look exactly like womas, either.

The purpose of this poll is to determine what the real story is with the genuine woma gene. If woma is co-dominant with a lethal super like HG Woma, then something should be popping out that does not survive, OR some eggs should fail to hatch.
If Woma is dominant, then we should notice no losses in woma X woma clutches, and we may need to test the resulting animals to see if any are actually supers.

To clarify with my comment on Spiders and Pinstripes, I was not implying there is not a homozygous form, just that there isn't a super. Has a homozygous Spider been produced? Obviously the only advantage of these would be all Spider or Pinstripe offspring.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

To clarify with my comment on Spiders and Pinstripes, I was not implying there is not a homozygous form, just that there isn't a super. Has a homozygous Spider been produced? Obviously the only advantage of these would be all Spider or Pinstripe offspring.

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from my knowledge the "super" spider is a lethal gene. unlike as in pinstripes, the offspring isnt homozygous.

pin x pin gives u normally looking pinstripes that - when crossed to a normal gives u 100% pinstripe offspring.

thats not the case in spiders. (as i said: to my knowledge)

but back to the woma/ hidden gene woma (or woma type2 as i call it)


could someone say something about the story with the pearls?

and 2nd- i dont think that theres superform in womas- i think it more likly will be a homozygous woma.

but i dont know someone who has produced them yet...

maybe theres something like a differnt pearl, but i dont think so...

i guess only time will tell

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The purpose of this poll is to determine what the real story is with the genuine woma gene. If woma is co-dominant with a lethal super like HG Woma, then something should be popping out that does not survive, OR some eggs should fail to hatch.

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Nope, there doesnt have to be a snake that pops out to die or even an egg. Quite simply as with many miscarriages there is a high probability that a true lethal gene would cause death before the snake even reaches a noticeable level of development. Perhaps all those eggs that get reabsorbed or where 8 follicles are counted and 7 babies come out are animals that failed to grow.

The "lethal" combination of HG Womas, Pearls, that end up dying is most likely not due to a gene that would cause them to die before developing, and instead some gene that causes a failure to digest/notice prey/etc, hence it being said that they dont thrive. Considering that ALL genes control protein synthesis and that everything in an animal's body is thus a result of protein interaction there is any number of things going wrong.

However people seem to think that this means that the line itself could never produce a super, and since it has produced a few that actually made it as far as hatching, I have to disagree. While a color modification COULD be the culprit, there is a good chance that that isnt the case, and once again I stress that genetically diversifying the HG Womas could ultimately produce Pearls that thrive, but I wouldnt expect to see it for a few generations of NON-LINE-BREEDING, however people just love to do it :P

As for the actual Woma:

The issue with Dominant genes is that their identification is extremely tricky. Often people throw co-dom onto everything initially in hopes that it will be, but then end up not producing a super. Simply because someone hasnt produced one yet doesnt mean it isnt possible and doesnt mean it's fatal. In order to prove that something is Dominant you need to produce a homozygous individual, if no such individual is produced it's still possible that it's co-dom. However there is another issue with Dominant genes... there could be a homozygous individual under your nose. It could be sitting there and it could be not producing offspring, laying undetected potentially for it's entire life.

Personally I like the idea of breeding snakes to different morphs and making designer morphs over the too common line breeding to produce supers. When you breed out far enough you may find little things disappear, like how some normal Spider offspring get head wobble, and some spiders barely have anything. Before people assume the morph's gene itself is the culprit you have to allow enough generations of breeding to pull any genes off the same chromosome that may be responsible, because right next to the gene controlling the spider pattern morph could be another one controlling the nervous system. And crossing over isnt done to every chromosome every time, it's done randomly.

I did not think any fertilized ovum would be reabsorbed by a female--I thought that applied only to follicles that had not fully developed and been fertilized. Even if the embryo dies very early, wouldn't it still be shelled, and wind up being laid as an 'unfertilized egg'? Not a slug, but a shelled egg that just collapses in the first week.

My snakes lay some of these every year anyhow.

I have spiders, and I have personally never, ever seen a head wobble in a normal spider-sib. Wobble in spiders varies a lot within a clutch, too.

I would suspect the scant few reported cases of head-wobble in normal sibs are actually due to some other problem that caused neurological issues in some of the clutch, such as temperature spiking. Spiders are one of the more religiously out-crossed morphs.

The dominant pinstripe was proven when it sired a bunch of clutches that hatched all pins, if I remember.

My female Woma just laid 5 eggs today and she was paired with a Woma male.

The eggs look good, so now the 60 day wait to see what hatches out.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I did not think any fertilized ovum would be reabsorbed by a female--I thought that applied only to follicles that had not fully developed and been fertilized. Even if the embryo dies very early, wouldn't it still be shelled, and wind up being laid as an 'unfertilized egg'? Not a slug, but a shelled egg that just collapses in the first week.

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I dont see why they wouldn't be reabsorbed/passed in some way, similar to the human passage of unfertilized/dead eggs. Unless, of course, egg laying species form the egg in a similar way that fruiting plants do, where one sperm hits a "shell" cell and another hits the ovum.

Some unfertilized eggs are passed unshelled, as slugs. Some are shelled, and passed. But these aren't unfertilized eggs you're talking about.

Snakes don't pass undeveloped embryos that aren't in some sort of egg. Someone who may be more of an expert than I can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty darned sure they do not reabsorb anything that's been fertilized, either.

Do we have any idea how many people didn't read the instructions before answering the poll here? :P

I know, this thread is old. But since I didn't find a following post with information about the woma x woma pairings, I'm asking here. Any news about the outcome? Any more news about the wobble issue? I really like spiders, but the "wobble" keeps me off of them. I really hoped that the Womas don't have this problem...but I read more and more about that it is the same there.

The only new news about womas that I have heard is that a Hidden Gene Woma X woma can make a pearl.

Confused to say the least, how can a HGW X HGW produce a pearl and also HGW X woma produce a pearl, yet they are supposed to be different morphs?

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

The only new news about womas that I have heard is that a Hidden Gene Woma X woma can make a pearl.

Confused to say the least, how can a HGW X HGW produce a pearl and also HGW X woma produce a pearl, yet they are supposed to be different morphs?

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who made the woma hgw pearl?

ill answer you with a question, are lesser and mojave different morphs?:)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

who made the woma hgw pearl?

ill answer you with a question, are lesser and mojave different morphs?:)

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Kevin states in his last video that a HGW X Woma can produce a pearl...

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ill answer you with a question, are lesser and mojave different morphs?

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:colbert:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Kevin states in his last video that a HGW X Woma can produce a pearl...

:colbert:

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he states that a HGW sib can make pearls, nothing about HGW x woma that I herd.