Awful Egg Experience

Hello everyone, this is my first post and I have to warn you it is not a happy one. On May 7th my normal female, which was bred by a lesser, laid five healthy eggs. Everything seemed to be going fine for my first clutch, although the eggs did dimple a little early. Well, yesterday, day 52, a normal pipped. I didn't expect the eggs to pip so early, so I left the other eggs alone. This morning, a lesser had pipped as well. The problem starts here. The lesser had pipped maybe an hour before it started to come out of the egg. About a third of his body was out of the egg. I gently pushed it into the egg again, and had to do so a few more times before it would stay put. However, I noticed that the lesser lacked energy and would not really move when I touched him. I knew this was not normal behavior because the other baby that pipped the day before did not act like this.

Since the lesser had pipped, I figured all of the other babies were about ready to hatch, too, so I cut the other three eggs. There were two normals and one lesser. One normal had a, well, normal looking egg on the inside. The other normal had a lot of darkish film on the inside of the egg and a whitish film on the baby. The lesser was a little dry on the inside of the egg. None of the babies moved. As the day progressed I noticed that the lesser who pipped on its own had not moved at all, unlike the normal that was first to pip. I took the lesser's egg out of the incubator and peeked inside its egg, only to discover a huge yolk sac and what I believed was the umbilical cord wrapped around the lesser's midsection very tightly. I knew it was pretty much doomed anyway but I had to try something.

I cut away most of the egg and carefully slid the baby and the yolk into a bowl with wet paper towels. After about 15 minutes of fumbling around, my mom finally got the umbilical cord unwrapped, but the lesser appears to be dead regardless. I waited about two hours for something to happen, but I believe the baby is dead because it has started to become stiff.

Because of this, I started to look over the other three eggs that had yet to move at all, and it had been about ten hours since I slit them. The normal looking egg appeared okay, but was slightly cloudy so I set it aside. The second egg that had the blackish film looked very gross and had a slight smell, so I cut more of the egg away only to discover a small dead baby. By this point, I was very upset. I quickly cut away at the last egg, which contained the lesser. This lesser, too, had its umbilical cord wrapped and twisted around its body, even more so than the first lesser. It, too, was dead.

Feeling hopeless for the last egg which I had set aside before, I cut into it as well. At first, the baby did appear to be dead, although it was larger than the other dead normal and lesser. I was convinced the baby was dead, so I removed it from the egg. The fluid around the baby was extremely sticky and coated the baby. I don't know if this is normal or not, because based on pictures I had seen on the internet of healthy hatching babies it did not appear to be. When the baby was out of the egg, I gently poked it and noticed slight movement. I realized it was barely alive so I found a small bowl, put some very moist paper towels in it, put the baby and the yolk sac in the bowl, and put some more moist paper towels over it and left a small hole so it could peek its head out. I know I have most likely doomed this baby, but I really did believe it was dead like the others. At the moment, he is nestled in his bowl in the incubator, not really moving at all. He was breathing when I took him out of the egg though.

Sooooo, to recap: I have two live normal babies at the moment, two dead lessers, and one dead normal. The second lesser and normal were both smaller than the first baby to pip, which leads me to believe that they must have died before the first one even pipped. Also, both lessers had their umbilical cords wrapped around them.

This was my very first clutch and I am so upset by what has happened. I don't know what could have caused this, especially since there were no temperature spikes, as my incubator is hooked up to a herpstat. I would greatly appreciate any input you all have as to why this has occurred. Also, sorry for such a long and confusing post...

Rachel

It's hard to deal with these things for your first clutch. Sorry to hear that some of them didn't make it.
It's pretty much a "rule" to let the babies come out of the egg by themselves.
I've seen babies pip and stay in the egg for another 5 days or so. Some others come out the same day they pip.
Also, alot of babies will coil in the eggs very firmly and not move at all. I've often wondered if my straglers are dead in the egg, then they emerge several days after their siblings.
Every one breeding will have slugs, still borns, deformed babies, etc..
Sorry again to hear you are having to deal with this.

Aww I'm so sorry you lost some of them. At least you have some that are ok... I have no breeding experience yet, but I have heard of baby's that seem dead after they pip and many hours later, they suck up the yolk and become active. I'm sure someone else will have better input.

It just sounds like one of those random sad stories. Unfortunately I don't think there is much you could have done to prevent this. What was the temp. set at in the incubator? What kind of medium did you use in the tub, and was it subtrateless, or did you have the eggs directly on the medium?

Awww.. Im sorry for your experience :(

If the temp and humidity was correct then it was not any fault of your own. Most of us don't cut eggs until after the first pip. Some cut sooner. Some don't cut at all. An umbilicle cord being wrapped around the baby is not extremely common but it does happen. The smaller babies may have had something go wrong during development. Maybe the mother was not up to size and health? If not then try not to le it bother you too much. It sounds like you did what you could. The film and thickness of the fluid also is not right. Something was wrong with the eggs from the very beginning.

I'm so sorry to hear this happened to you. I have always thought that umbilical chords wrapping around babies just happened by accident, there was probably nothing you could have done. I suspect it was a weird clutch to begin with though, based on the fact that they started pipping so early, but I'm inexperienced with eggs so I can't be certain. I really hope that last baby pulls through for you. :tears:

The eggs were kept at 89 degrees on vermiculite. Also, mom is an '05 and was 1900 grams right before she laid her eggs so she was healthy for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Renefoy

The eggs were kept at 89 degrees on vermiculite. Also, mom is an '05 and was 1900 grams right before she laid her eggs so she was healthy for breeding.

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What was the Humidity?

Also I'm very sorry to hear about this unfortunate situation.

Really sorry to hear that. I'm glad a few made it. Did you mess with the eggs much when incubating? Possible picking them up and turning them around a lot? Did you mark the tops when you took them from the female?

The humidity was 85-90%. I did mark the tops and they never got flipped around but I did pick them up a few times during incubation to candle and whatnot. The vermiculite dried out early on during incubation and two of the eggs dimpled early and there was a lot of condensation. I redid the vermiculite and then put a small computer fan inside the incubator to even out the temperature inside and reduce the condensation. The eggs that dimpled early on never went back to full size but they were the only eggs to pip themselves.

I think when the eggs got too dry that probably doomed them.

My question is why did you try to push the snake back in the egg?
I have had babies come halfway out only to go back in the egg and not come completely for several days.

Next time keep the egg box sealed up air tight until the last two weeks so it cant dry out and dont disturb hatchlings until they are completely out of the egg. They need to pip their head and start breathing for quite some time to increase their metabolism and absorb the rest of their yolk. I have seen this take several days before they decide to come out(always seems like the best snake in the clutch takes the longest).

I tried to push the baby back in because it seemed to me that he was literally trying to leave the egg after pipping maybe an hour before. This was my first clutch but I didn't think he was supposed to leave that soon and he still had a full yolk sac so I guided him back in.

I have a question but I don't know if you all can answer it. Is it possible that the umbilical cord developing wrong and wrapping around the lessers only be a genetics thing? Or is it just my bad luck?

Aww.. I'm sorry you had a rough start with your first clutch. :(

Sometimes these things just happen. I don't think getting tangled in the umbilical cord is something you could really prevent any more than a pregnant woman could prevent her unborn from doing the same inutero.

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Originally Posted by Renefoy

I have a question but I don't know if you all can answer it. Is it possible that the umbilical cord developing wrong and wrapping around the lessers only be a genetics thing? Or is it just my bad luck?

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I am pretty sure the cord thing is just bad luck. As far as the temps go, I like to keep mine a little lower like 86-86.2 to give a little more development time. But your temps and humidity are within range, so I would just chalk it up to a bad experience. Hopefully you got it out of the way and from now on things will be better.

:( I'm sorry. I'm having a really bad egg experience as well. It's my first year :(

Sorry for your first clutch. I know it must be tough. Hopefully the two live babies will pull through ok for you. Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by nicktreb

Really sorry to hear that. I'm glad a few made it. Did you mess with the eggs much when incubating? Possible picking them up and turning them around a lot? Did you mark the tops when you took them from the female?

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its been proven that turning them has no negative side effects and they still hatch as normal

Thanks everyone for your kind words. I just feel so...deflated from this experience lol. The first baby to pip is the only one that has survived and he seems to be doing well. He hasn't left his egg yet but he pipped so early that I'm not really worried. I know I couldn't have really prevented this but I still feel awful for the poor babies. Better luck next time I guess...

Did the bowl baby die, then? If it is still hanging in there, even if it appears extremely weak, I would not lose hope for it.

I have had runts hatch before that were VERY weak with poor muscle tone, but after a few days out of the egg, they actually gain strength and then go on to thrive.

Yes, the bowl baby did die...he had not absorbed any yolk, was not breathing, and was starting to become stiff. I don't really think he had a chance from the start...

Your humidity was "within range" but I'm sure most would agree that 100% humidity is best to prevent any dimpling or drying. Condensation would be caused by leaky, or bad eggs, or a lid on the egg box which was not tightly sealed. Aside from occasionally candling, or treating for mold, the egg box should not be opened until the last couple weeks of incubation. Then only a few times a week for a few seconds to exchange air and to remove condensation from the lid so it does not drip on the eggs. About the only way to achieve 100% humidity without getting the eggs wet is by going substrateless and using a thick grate or a double grate so there is no chance the eggs will come in contact with any water. Or by using a larger egg box so the outer perimiter substrate can be moist while the areas the eggs are in are not overly wet.

Dont lose hope or get discouraged by this. Just try again. You will have better luck with the next clutch. Sometimes eggs just dont develop right no matter what. I have had 2 clutches this year which had bad eggs that looked like large perfect white eggs at first. 2 of these from my third clutch even candled perfect with veins. Then they just rotted for no reason while the other eggs in the clutch went full term and hatched perfect babies. Nature weeds out the imperfections sometimes.

Sorry for your loss.

As already stated so I won't ramble on too much. As much as this sucks now take pride in the fact that you still have a nice little Normal that is doing fine.

Everyone has gone through or will go through what you just experienced at one time or another.

Chin up and better luck this fall.


Gavin