Is this really a humane way to pre-kill?

Hey guys. As some of you may know I am getting a 3 week old ball python around the 22nd - 25th

I went to a different store than the one i am buying the BP from by the way, keep that in mind (can picture people saying "if they said that, dont uby the snake from them" lol)

So I asked the guy, I said im about to get a BP, will you guys have the size of mice ill need around the time I get it (just wanted to know so I wont have to go around looking for a store that sells feeders)

and he says, yeah we have them but wont have any F/T

so I was like.. "k.. thats fine"

he then went on to tell me, that if I do decide to uby the live to prekill them, I told him that was the plan, and he proceeded to say:

"Yeah, its very easy, just lay them on a table. Get a screw driver and put it on this neckbone. Then push down really hard, this will snap the spine and cause the mouse to die instantly"


(ALSO keep in mind he was saying that for future reference, prekilling wont be needed when feeding pinkies/hoppers.)

Is that really humane? I was kinda like "wtf" when I heard it.. but I dunno its coming from a reputible store so I dont know what to make of it

but ive never heard of that method.. ive heard of CO2, hitting the head against a wall, ect ect, cervial dislocation (but not like that) where you hold the head down and pull the tail

Can anybody offer some insight? I dunno if I should listen to a word this guy says....

NO!!!

You do NOT crush the back of the neck! You put a long screw-driver, ruler, pencil, anything sturdy and strong, and you pull the tail UP. Crushing the neck will be a very painful death :(

The most humane way is CO2, though. It knocks them out instantly, no tail yanking, neck crushing... You can get cans of it at WalMart, or Krogers. In my opinion, I think that is the safest way to pre-kill.

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Originally Posted by Sadistic Serpent

NO!!!

You do NOT crush the back of the neck! You put a long screw-driver, ruler, pencil, anything sturdy and strong, and you pull the tail UP. Crushing the neck will be a very painful death :(

The most humane way is CO2, though. It knocks them out instantly, no tail yanking, neck crushing... You can get cans of it at WalMart, or Krogers. In my opinion, I think that is the safest way to pre-kill.

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Ah kk

yeah that guy was messed up then

He was saying about "oh its more humane then co2" and i wasnt really sure

but now I am, and he is an idiot. Im just not gonna buy feeders from them, ill probably end up going somewhere that im certain is good

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Ah kk

yeah that guy was messed up then

He was saying about "oh its more humane then co2" and i wasnt really sure

but now I am, and he is an idiot. Im just not gonna buy feeders from them, ill probably end up going somewhere that im certain is good

Thanks!

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Just imagine this, someone crushing your neck with a pole until you die. Doesn't sound very pleasant, huh? And, most people will agree, nothing is more humane than CO2.

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Originally Posted by Sadistic Serpent

Just imagine this, someone crushing your neck with a pole until you die. Doesn't sound very pleasant, huh? And, most people will agree, nothing is more humane than CO2.

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Yeah when you put it that way it is 100% clear, I thought it was suspect to begin with but now i know 100% its not the way to go, I feel bad that I almost listened to him :(

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Yeah when you put it that way it is 100% clear, I thought it was suspect to begin with but now i know 100% its not the way to go, I feel bad that I almost listened to him :(

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Don't feel bad! :hug: :aww: At least you knew that it wasn't right, and at least you asked! It would have been worse if in a couple months, you get a live mouse, and you crush its neck :weirdface

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Originally Posted by Sadistic Serpent

Don't feel bad! :hug: :aww: At least you knew that it wasn't right, and at least you asked! It would have been worse if in a couple months, you get a live mouse, and you crush its neck :weirdface

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Thats very true! :D

I would MUCH rather invest a few dollars to a Co2 chamber, even if im only using it for one mouse a week then doing something cruel and inhumane

I love all animals! so that would be very upsetting to me to find out i was doing something inhumane, which is why I wanted to ask first which I guess is the best thing to do as you said :)

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Thats very true! :D

I would MUCH rather invest a few dollars to a Co2 chamber, even if im only using it for one mouse a week then doing something cruel and inhumane

I love all animals! so that would be very upsetting to me to find out i was doing something inhumane, which is why I wanted to ask first which I guess is the best thing to do as you said :)

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Good job! And good luck with your ball ypthon!

Feel free to ask any questions you have here, I or someone esle will be happy to answer them. A smart owner is a happy snake.

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Originally Posted by Sadistic Serpent

Good job! And good luck with your ball ypthon!

Feel free to ask any questions you have here, I or someone esle will be happy to answer them. A smart owner is a happy snake.

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Thank you very much! I have been planning everything down to the details lol so I hope my ball will be very happy and healthy :D

If I have any questions ill be sure to ask! Thank you very much for the help, I really appreciate it :) :bow:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Thank you very much! I have been planning everything down to the details lol so I hope my ball will be very happy and healthy :D

If I have any questions ill be sure to ask! Thank you very much for the help, I really appreciate it :) :bow:

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No problem :) :D :gj:

just get a bb-gun and shoot them in the head just like they do to make those hamburgers everybody loves so much or hot dogs granted they use a bigger gun but good for our food why not good enough for a pets food.


come on people these is our pets food you think your snake will care if it's food was crushed(ha-ha-ha constrictors crush) smacked in head with a finger or what ever a sissy uses to hit them in the head cause there finger is to soft. or die a death of lets face it suffocation (you know why this is considered so human cause it knocks them out instantly) let me ask you people this that use this method i've tried a few f/t from co2 and 1 thing all the mice and rats had in common when thawed blood starting coming from nose or ears every time you know why it burst blood vessels in the throat and brains not very human other then animal was asleep and couldn't wake up to get away kind of like dieing in your car from the fumes don't know it's happening but you go to sleep then die from oxygen starvation

here read this is what your doing to be humane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia
dont sound so humane now does it? it is still killing no-matter how you look at it your taking a life you need to learn how to deal with it then just say oh this is a good way to kill so i don't get my hands dirty. then not to mention where does the co2 go when your done killing your mice or rats or what ever prey you use do you suck it up and use it again or leave it in the bucket to use next time or simply dump it out to help the greenhouse effect and help kill the planet 1 mouse at a time well at least the mouse died painlessly but get hundreds of thousands of snake owners doing it then we over time help kill each other but hey at least we just go to sleep and not wake up right so no biggie. oops no we die from skin cancer and other stuff from ozone layers being messed up but at least we killed our mice humanely (to bad we can't say the same about our selfs) yes i know dumping c02 into the air on the scale we use is no big deal compared to all our cars and such(i don't drive for this reason) but still it adds up in the long run

point being learn to deal with the death of a prey item there is no reason to go build a c02 chamber for just a couple bucks if you dont want to get your hands dirty there are tons of companies that sell frozen rodents and guess what they deliver also and it is actually cheaper in the long run to buy from them i checked prices at a recent show and versus even just buying if you buy a bag of frozen is actually cheaper to buy frozen then to buy live so why even get your hand dirty at all

Nice reply, Ice. You put a lot of your own emotions into it, but not a lot of thought. You did make one valid point though, if you're not breeding your own feeders, it IS cheaper to buy in bulk from a breeder (who uses CO2, btw).

But if you're un-willing to keep frozen mice/rats in the freezer, then I could see why you'd choose to pre-kill.

no not really did i put emotions into that just started typing and let what was in my mind go but it was after my 4 year old woke me up at 2 in the morning when i posted that

but none the less i still just dont get how starving something of oxygen is considered humane heres a list of just off top of my head of oxygen starved deaths astha attack (ask anybody who's had one if they think it would be a humane way to die same with any other examples) drowning (yes not quite the same but still die due to no oxygen) choke to death on piece of food. (closest example as no-matter what can't take air in. i'm sure there is others but lets face it honestly try it stick your head in the bucket and make sure to have a buddy around to pull you out before you die bet you change your mind if you try it.

rember these are communal animals so they have emotions and feelings. just cause they are quickly put to sleep dont mean they dont feel no pain (I'm reminded of patents that there doc got the Anastassia wrong and doc swore they were asleep and could feel nothing but upon waking up the people could tell the doc what all he said and did while they were suppose to be out.
rember our brains even mice tell us or them if something is harefull to us to get away from it and you honestly think that aint going threw the mice or rats minds till they are dead

if this was so humane why is it recommended to leave the animals in the tank for so long to make sure it is dead. get a mouse or rat trap hold them and just stick them in it so it hits them in the neck they are dead before you can open the trap far less painful then starving an animal of oxygen Evan if they are asleep in the first couple seconds there brain is still active and to claim they dont feel anything is honestly just a plain lie c02 aint no Anastassia or pain med c02 is what makes us breath (ie in the fact our bodies are expelling c02 to draw in oxygen thus by adding more c02 you in fact make the body work harder to exspell the c02


found this on wikipedia
Main article: Nitrogen asphyxiation

Nitrogen asphyxiation is an occasional cause of accidental death and a theoretical method of capital punishment. The painful experience of suffocation is not caused by lack of oxygen, but rather because of a buildup of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream which is exhaled under normal circumstances. After just two or three breaths of pure nitrogen, the oxygen concentration in the lungs would be low enough for some oxygen already in the bloodstream to exchange back to the lungs and be eliminated by exhalation. Crude simulation of oxygen transport through the lungs and blood stream suggests that the partial pressure of oxygen in arterial blood would be about 50 percent of saturation 1 minute after switching gases and would reach zero within 3 minutes.

now look they say the pain aint caused by not being able to draw in o2 but the build up of c02 and thus must be compounded with the higher amounts of added c02 to the bucket equals more pain

So I'm obviously not getting it (and I'm obviously not reading more than the first couple sentences). You breed mice, do you feed live? Or do you shoot every one of them in the head with a BB gun? Since you like going out and finding examples of how asphyxiation is so inhumane, look up vets, animal control and many other goverment regulated institutions that approve CO2 euthanasia.

People have actually done studies, tests and other such stuff. I think you're just being ignorant to the facts. You think that the process of being euthanized by CO2 is the same thing as being strangled. It is not.

:O:weirdface omg Yikes .

honestly jfreels i get mine when don't care what kind, size, or sex of mice from i get them cheaper live then frozen for weanling's to month and half old if i rember right last time i got 50 it cost me 10 bucks but my cousin is cousins with the breeder i buy mine off of (I'm related to my cousin through his mom the breeder is relater to my cousin through his dad so no relation of mine) but he gives me a very good deal might only be because he is getting out of breeding the end of this year if i rember right after 10 plus years of breeding but i get a good deal none the less even more so since all i ever get off him is females

OK on a quick search of just that found that allot of govs say it is OK but aint it our same government who lies to us about many other things check this out dentist say use fluoride to strengthen teeth now go look at ingredients of mouse and rat poison why does it have fluoride in it are we trying to strengthen the rats and mice teeth with poisons no fluoride is a chemical by product and is even fatal with long term higher doses (food and drug admin know this but still condone it's use)

check this link out different but a guy who goes against government thinking of using fuoride in water is a bad idea since fluoride is a poison
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/fluoride.html
med research proving fluoride added to water bad tons of info in this link
http://www.lovethetruth.com/truth_about_fluoride.htm

ok so what does all this got to do with c02 well if what we have said for many years after supposedly studding fluoride in water before it could be used ie the same process they used more or less for determining c02 was safe and human i got to disagree look at what they supposedly done by mistake to humans cause god only know how many to get cancer or long term poisoning deaths world wide i mean come on the let the fertilizer industry dump there waste off into our bodies and you think these same people care if an animal suffers while it is asleep come on open your eyes they are just finding ways to use what c02 they can

I'm in a town where they are putting a plant thats by product is c02 that they plan on pumping the c02 into the ground so our town as a whole has done tons of research of c02 and dieing from it and i must say when you talk to a vet that uses c02 to kill there old pets or put down strays if they aint being paid to say it is humane they dont say it is those people that say it is humane is paid to say that they dont get paid if they dont say what is wanted of them to say. our town does injections cause they tried the c02 and they said there was tons more movement then before they switched from injections to gassing and they stated that on record in a town meeting

go ask your doc how humane he would think it to be if you killed yourself by c02 guess what he will say (explain to him your just doing a study cause they say it is humane to kill animals that away) and I'll bet he will tell you it aint a good way to die.

anyway you look at it it's not humane look at people who choose to kill themselves in there garage with car running(if you've read any reports even thought they were trying to kill themselves there bodies natural instinct to survive kicked in and most the time it is to late they still die) that does the exact same thing it don't crush you to keep you from expelling c02 it makes it so no-matter how much 02 is in the air your body can't take it in.
now push all the 02 out of a bucket and nothing but c02 is there then your body no-matter how hard it tries can draw 02 in you know the real reason people use c02 is? they aint got the stomach to watch the animal die thats it no ifs ands or buts about it


i myself flip my mice in the back of the head with my finger for rats i smack with a pencil then give them to my snakes on tongs so they grab head first so in-case the mouse or rat is just knocked out the snake aint covering it's mouth so it ends up getting bitten. i tried with out offering tongs before and mice and rats dont always die just get knocked out and would come threw part the way threw constriction and bite and chew on the snake when just throwing the mouse or rat on cage floor.

I've noticed when i do get a couple f/t rats and mice my snakes squeeze longer then if they feel the heart beat go out. which i think by making a snake squeeze longer stresses the snake out more then them feeling the prey struggle against them. on average i timed it a couple times and my snakes would constrict twice as long with a f/t then with live or fresh killed prey by fresh killed i mean prey is still reflexing from dieing

If you are going to pull the tail, make sure you grab by the base of the tail and not the end because you will pull its tail right off! That is usually a good way to do it. If you can set up CO2 then go for it, I guess.

Ahhh, it's one of those tinfoil hat people I heard of earlier....good to know! Honestly, I can't read your giant blocks of text with giant run-ons. I did skim over it and you seemed to avoid my question. It appears through other posts on this forum that you breed mice, look at these threads for an example....

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73533
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125160
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125189
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124523
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119659
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123436

From looking at your posts, you want to get into breeding snakes and for some reason you already have a well established colony of mice. Again, do you feed live or shoot them with a BB gun?

god i cant believe he even suggested that method for killing the rodents...ugh. some people really sicken me.

only said a couple of time depends on size of prey if they eat pinkies i feed live once the mice start to get teeth i flip them in the back of the head with my finger and for smaller rats also bigger rats not sure biggest snake i got other then a burm that my cousin gave to me for free cause he couldn't afford to feed or rehouse it anymore is a blood thats not quite a year old that eats about 6 week old rats maybe 8 depending on how big they are

i know how breeding mice can sometimes go i use to breed back almost 20 years ago then took a break from it (cause of a girl was dating who didn't like snakes) but she is gone now so i figured get back into it again but as of right now i got 2 baby balls 2 green tree pythons a blood python and a Burmese. and those are just the snakes then i got a Goliath bird eater 3 Tokay geckos (2 wild caught 1 captive born)and a snapping turtle if my next side job goes right I'll be buying the 3 tree boas in the sales section sometime after next Sunday. other then when i was with my ex i have always kept crap loads of herps and breed them not so much for the money of it but for the enjoyment

but at tax time I'm sinking my whole return into 10 or 20 adult female balls and some males of different color morphs then getting some t albino bloods some mandarin rat snakes couple different milk snakes and possibly couple color morphs of them then some tree boas Indonesian included, white lipped pythons, ringed, womas, children's, spotted can't rember all of them off top of my head but 13 to 18 species all together

you make it sound bad to plan ahead right now i got a rack in my freezer full of all different sizes of mice close to 16 full gallon ziplock bags and I've only had this colony up and running max output for 3 months with 35 females poping out babies (smallest liter i've had is 10 biggest 16) to raise to the sizes i want to keep stocked up for when everything else is ready to go.
I'm not the kind of person to sit and wait till i need something i plan ahead

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Hey guys. As some of you may know I am getting a 3 week old ball python around the 22nd - 25th

I went to a different store than the one i am buying the BP from by the way, keep that in mind (can picture people saying "if they said that, dont uby the snake from them" lol)

So I asked the guy, I said im about to get a BP, will you guys have the size of mice ill need around the time I get it (just wanted to know so I wont have to go around looking for a store that sells feeders)

and he says, yeah we have them but wont have any F/T

so I was like.. "k.. thats fine"

he then went on to tell me, that if I do decide to uby the live to prekill them, I told him that was the plan, and he proceeded to say:

"Yeah, its very easy, just lay them on a table. Get a screw driver and put it on this neckbone. Then push down really hard, this will snap the spine and cause the mouse to die instantly"


(ALSO keep in mind he was saying that for future reference, prekilling wont be needed when feeding pinkies/hoppers.)

Is that really humane? I was kinda like "wtf" when I heard it.. but I dunno its coming from a reputible store so I dont know what to make of it

but ive never heard of that method.. ive heard of CO2, hitting the head against a wall, ect ect, cervial dislocation (but not like that) where you hold the head down and pull the tail

Can anybody offer some insight? I dunno if I should listen to a word this guy says....

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I've heard many ways.....

1. Place a ruler longways on the neck push down, then pull the tail and you will dislocate the spine.

2. Co2 chamber, using dry ice or baking soda and vinegar.

3. Use a screw driver, and dink it on the head to daze it, so it's unable to attack your snake.

4. use a screw driver and and hit it on the head intel dead.

5. Bash it on the head on the wall. (Not suggested, it could get messy.)

If none of those methods work for you looks like you need to T up the mouse and hit it with a golf driver =P..... Kidding kidding I would never do that!

-Payson!

I just saw the write up last night for doing your own CO2 chamber with dry ice and a cooler and some paper towels. It will probably cost you $30 at first for every thing, but once you do it, it will probably be cheap as hell.

Put the dry ice in a container that has holes in it. Place the rats/mice into the cooler. (yes, like a snack drink cooler). Make sure you have paper towels down. Once the rats/mice are in, place the container with the dry ice in it, into the cooler and close the lid. Within 5 mins you'll have a bunch of rats/mice that went to sleep, and never knew what happened.

Then you can freeze them if needed. That way it's humane and you don't have to violently kill them.

YouTube - Mouse CO2
YouTube - mini Co2 mice, rat euthanize Kit

Honestly, IMO, Co2 gassing can't be humane. They're aware of what happens and suffocate. Maybe it's not as bad as having your throat smashed in, but suffocation is suffocation. For me, I would go the way of cervical dislocation or a smack to the head unless I was dealing with large rats or LOTS of rodents.

Why don't you just let the snake kill the mouse for you?

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Originally Posted by Shenzi Sixaxis

YouTube - Mouse CO2
YouTube - mini Co2 mice, rat euthanize Kit

Honestly, IMO, Co2 gassing can't be humane. They're aware of what happens and suffocate. Maybe it's not as bad as having your throat smashed in, but suffocation is suffocation. For me, I would go the way of cervical dislocation or a smack to the head unless I was dealing with large rats or LOTS of rodents.

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If you do it with the cooler, they don't get hit with such a large amount and suffocate. The way that the first video shows is too much CO2 too fast. Then they choke to death and it's a horrible way to go.

If you do the cooler with dry ice it introduces the CO2 much slower and allows them to go to sleep before totally removing the oxygen. Notice that video took only about 1 min before they died? That's too fast. It should take 4-5 mins so that they go off into la la land before they stop breathing. The twitching and the flip over was a dead give away (no pun intended) that they were receiving too much CO2 too fast. As I said, put them in a cooler and it's much simpler and much cheaper than getting a CO2 tank and doing all that jazz.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=cooler

Here is the easy and HUMANE way to do it.

CO2 has already been proven to be a humane form of euthanasia for mice and rats. Just because there are some YouTube videos showing it improperly done, doesn't mean it's inhumane.

Suffocation is LOSS of airflow. As long as there is a slow introduction of CO2, breathing remains normal. As soon as enough CO2 slowly enters the animals system, they pass out. Then CO2 is increased and the animals brain will die of a lack of oxygen. There are plenty of other videos that simply show them lying down and "falling asleep".

I do the keyboard cleaner and freezer bag thing. But then I only have 1 snake that eats pre-kill (but then now he eats frogs so I don't even have to do this anymore). A CO2 chamber for 1 rat is too much for me.

Put a rat in a small ziploc freezer bag (you can use regular storage bags but the freezer bag is thicker, just in case the rat decides to chew out before he sleeps), then zip the top leaving just enough space for the nozzle of the keyboard cleaner to go through. Stand the bag on a table or counter then squirt with keyboard cleaner. One full squirt is enough if you got one ASF in a quart-size bag. Zip it closed and wait about 3 minutes. If you open it too soon, the rat wakes up.

But, I think the most humane is to just let the snake kill the rat. Just be sure you are ready with the tongs in case the rat gets a chance at sinking a tooth into the snake.

First off...shoot a mouse with a bb gun??? Oh HELL no. Humane issues aside, I don't want my snakes ingesting bb's. That just screams "health risk" to me.

Then again I'm the one who surgically dissects any pheasants or quail I eat for fear of breaking my teeth on hidden shot, so...yeah.

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ok so what does all this got to do with c02 well if what we have said for many years after supposedly studding fluoride in water before it could be used ie the same process they used more or less for determining c02 was safe and human i got to disagree look at what they supposedly done by mistake to humans cause god only know how many to get cancer or long term poisoning deaths world wide i mean come on the let the fertilizer industry dump there waste off into our bodies and you think these same people care if an animal suffers while it is asleep come on open your eyes they are just finding ways to use what c02 they can

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First off...omg, my former English major brain cells just died a little. Longest run-on sentence EVER. In fact there isn't a single piece of punctuation in the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH. Fun fact...when trying to convince people of something, typing like a crazed illiterate makes your statements harder to digest and thus more likely to be rejected.

Secondly..."supposedly studding fluoride?" I think an important Y got left out, and I find it a little amusing.

Thirdly...tinfoil, in hat form, srsly.

Okay so now I have a question. I know C02 is the preferred method for euthanasia of moderately developed mice and rats, but what about pinks and fuzzies? I've heard that C02 doesn't work as well on them. And my roommate just flipped out MASSIVELY when she heard that some folk kill by exposure, i.e., putting pinks directly in the freezer.

So much misinformation, sad.

co2 is the only way I'll put a rat to sleep.
Nothing will sway me to bash a rat, dislocate it's spine, or shooting them with bb's :confused:

I feed live but do a few pre-kills now and then and also put down sick and dying rats with co2.

inhumane :rolleyes:

Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55% of plepoe can. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! fi yuo cna raed tihs, palce it in yuor porfiel.



this is a study Cambridge university did

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Originally Posted by Kyle@theHeathertoft

Secondly..."supposedly studding fluoride?" I think an important Y got left out, and I find it a little amusing.

Thirdly...tinfoil, in hat form, srsly.

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read this
http://www.doulton.ca/floride.html

secondly what you mean about tinfoil hat i don't get it

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Originally Posted by MikeV

He was saying about "oh its more humane then co2" and i wasnt really sure

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I am in the camp that cervical dislocation is more humane than CO2 poisoning.

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Originally Posted by The Hedgehog

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=cooler

Here is the easy and HUMANE way to do it.

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THAT is probably where people hear it's humane. That also makes me think that that specific tactic of it is, but I'm unsure just how many people do it that way.

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Originally Posted by jfreels

There are plenty of other videos that simply show them lying down and "falling asleep".

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I seem to fail at finding those. You or anyone else have some posted somewhere?

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Originally Posted by anatess

I do the keyboard cleaner and freezer bag thing. But then I only have 1 snake that eats pre-kill (but then now he eats frogs so I don't even have to do this anymore). A CO2 chamber for 1 rat is too much for me.

Put a rat in a small ziploc freezer bag (you can use regular storage bags but the freezer bag is thicker, just in case the rat decides to chew out before he sleeps), then zip the top leaving just enough space for the nozzle of the keyboard cleaner to go through. Stand the bag on a table or counter then squirt with keyboard cleaner. One full squirt is enough if you got one ASF in a quart-size bag. Zip it closed and wait about 3 minutes. If you open it too soon, the rat wakes up.

But, I think the most humane is to just let the snake kill the rat. Just be sure you are ready with the tongs in case the rat gets a chance at sinking a tooth into the snake.

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I never thought of that. However, isn't keyboard cleaner chemicals, and not Co2?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I am in the camp that cervical dislocation is more humane than CO2 poisoning.

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Same here, no matter how Co2 is done. It's not instantaneous like CD.

OK i got a question. how is it these mice die if done properly with c02 aint they still suffocated? i mean you take the oxygen away whether awake or asleep. they are still suffocated to death. no way you word you took there oxygen away right? so you suffocated them to death

lil info about c02 concentrations and the effects it has before death occures
# 1% can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.[5]
# At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.[47]
# At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory center, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.[47]. Panic attacks may also occur at this concentration.[49][50]
# At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.

link this info came from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

OK so from this we can see it takes prolonger exposure for any of the results even death which they said in other section is around 10%. OK so look at what happens before 10% notice loss of consciousness dont occur till 8%. at 5% adverse side effects start to occur in the forms of dizziness confusion panic attacks difficulty in breathing. (if that happened to you wouldn't you be calling a doctor to be seen asap i know i would be) then at 8% before going to sleep we see it cuases headaches sweating then vision dims then loss of consciousness. then 10% is reached and after a few minute dies. i dont know the stuff that happens before loosing consciousness don't sound that humane to me (my personal opinion)

yeah that sounds humane to me now that i read that is all that is happening to them. cause hey one of the first effects is narcotic so they think they are happy.

my whole point of arguing this topic is suffocation is suffocation. and is suffocation considered humane? no by no means is suffocation considered humane. your just choosing to use it cause other people say it is cause supposedly the prey falls asleep before they die or suffer any but from the info i posted shows there is stuff happening that would make anything try to get away first. just cause the prey can't speak up and say hey get me out of hear or hey what happening to me don't make it humane. so with that reasoning why not just smack a sleeping mouse in the back of the head to kill it its asleep it wont feel it right its asleep just like using c02 to cuase an animal to suffer before it dies. (by suffering i mean it has panic attacks, headaches, difficulty in breathing, shortness of breath, tremors, dizziness, confusion)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for info. It's humane because they don't know it happened.

Let me try again since you seem to not get it.

WHEN DONE PROPERLY THEY GO TO SLEEP FIRST, AND THEN THEY NEVER KNOW WHAT HITS THEM!

There is no pain, there is no snapping of a neck, it's just sleep and then bye bye. You know how they do lethal injection? They put you to sleep and then kill you. Same thing with the mice/rats.

It is, WHEN DONE PROPERLY, the absolute most humane way to kill them.

So you've avoided my question for about the 6th time, ice. Personally, I'm starting to think you're a troll. Thanks for taking the tip on using punctuation. I still just skimmed over your posts, but I see commas and periods so I'm sure some people on the forum appreciate it.

Shenzi, review these videos. There are many more. Just do whatever search you did to find those other videos but ignore those couple results that you posted.

YouTube - Cheap Rat Gas Chamber
YouTube - Approved Euthanasia Methods for Small Lab Animals: Tools and Techniques
YouTube - Mouse CO2

Ice's comments above about it's effects are irrelevant because those are the effects on a HUMAN body.

I've seen the first one, and I posted the 3rd one as one of the ones I used to say Co2 gassing seems inhumane. Only the second one seemed humane.

I've done CO2 with vinigar and baking soda. The mice pretty much try to get out of the zip lock baggy before falling over, breathing labored, and eventually dieing. Can take a good five minutes or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shenzi Sixaxis

I never thought of that. However, isn't keyboard cleaner chemicals, and not Co2?

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Nope. Completely nothing but CO2. It even shows it in the label. Well, at least the keyboard cleaner I use for my computer. Dunno if there are other "types" of keyboard cleaner.

whats your question bub i've said 2 or 3 times how i kill my mice and rats now if that wasn't your question what is it cuase i seem to have missed it if it wasn't about how i kill my mice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jfreels

So you've avoided my question for about the 6th time, ice. Personally, I'm starting to think you're a troll. Thanks for taking the tip on using punctuation. I still just skimmed over your posts, but I see commas and periods so I'm sure some people on the forum appreciate it.

Shenzi, review these videos. There are many more. Just do whatever search you did to find those other videos but ignore those couple results that you posted.

YouTube - Cheap Rat Gas Chamber
YouTube - Approved Euthanasia Methods for Small Lab Animals: Tools and Techniques
YouTube - Mouse CO2

Ice's comments above about it's effects are irrelevant because those are the effects on a HUMAN body.

---

so if how mice and rats respond so different then human why do we do animal testing on them for new drugs long before the human trails begin. why would they do that jfreels as you claim what mice and rats go threw is so much different then what humans go threw

OK true but every living creature goes threw similar stuff just cause they can't speak up and say so don't mean they don't. with that reasoning a mute don't have the same responses as a non-mute cause they can't speak up and say what they are feeling

OK think of it like this how is it effects on a rat or mouse different then a human body is there some kind of study done that i can't find since long before any new drug goes on the market it is tested on rats and mice first why since you say they dont respond the same way. but yet they test meds on rats and mice long before they are given to humans
why are they tested on rats and mice before they are tested on humans if they are so different like you claim? I'll tell you why cause all living creatures still respond similar to certain stuff

jfreels lets see some links you can find that say mice and rats don't have feelings or know whats going to happen to them. just cause the rats and mice can't say what there body is feeling doesn't mean they don't feel it

or this it is considered humane because rats and mice are considered pests so it is the approved way to deal with pests

good thing Columbus didn't listen to everybody who told him the world was flat at that point in time no one tried to disprove that it was flat cause there king said so. also good thing the wright brothers didn't listen to everybody saying that it was impossible to fly

for the person who said it was inhumane to stick a rat or mouse straight in the freezer what about using the cooler method of gassing dry ice is allot colder then everyones freezer At temperatures above −56.4 °C (−69.5 °F) and pressures below 5.2 bar (the triple point), CO2 changes from a solid to a gas with no intervening liquid form, through a process called sublimation. OK now most peoples freezers are around low teens old freezer to 0 new freezer yet your roommate thinks it's ok to dry ice the mice and rats do the math dry ice is alot colder then a freezer or is it the fact that maybe the mice and rats lungs freeze before they die that makes her think it is more humane

jfreels
but noticed you either refused to awnser my question as did everybody else so i'll say it again

how does a mouse die when gassed with c02?

don't they still suffocate whether asleep or awake it is still suffocation cause you removed the oxygen

I'm starting to think people just want somebody to hold there hand and lead them threw life so they don't have to make decisions for themselves and are to dense to go from what there (master, hand holder) told them was a fact so they dont bother to question what they are told

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anatess

Nope. Completely nothing but CO2. It even shows it in the label. Well, at least the keyboard cleaner I use for my computer. Dunno if there are other "types" of keyboard cleaner.

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keyboard cleaner in my area says this on the can

bittergent trademarked
helps detter inhalant abuse
so something is added to get people to quite or make them not want to inhale it
and if you read the label why they say don't expose to open flame with the spray if just c02 it would put the flame out. but thay say not to ignite it c02 won't ignite so there has to be something else in the can

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

whats your question bub i've said 2 or 3 times how i kill my mice and rats now if that wasn't your question what is it cuase i seem to have missed it if it wasn't about how i kill my mice.

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OK, so you do use a BB gun then. I just wanted to make sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

so if how mice and rats respond so different then human why do we do animal testing on them for new drugs long before the human trails begin. why would they do that jfreels as you claim what mice and rats go threw is so much different then what humans go threw

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I'm going to venture a guess that you're a kid. I'll let you learn that in high school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

OK true but every living creature goes threw similar stuff just cause they can't speak up and say so don't mean they don't. with that reasoning a mute don't have the same responses as a non-mute cause they can't speak up and say what they are feeling

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Sure, but they could give you the finger :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

OK think of it like this how is it effects on a rat or mouse different then a human body is there some kind of study done that i can't find since long before any new drug goes on the market it is tested on rats and mice first why since you say they dont respond the same way. but yet they test meds on rats and mice long before they are given to humans
why are they tested on rats and mice before they are tested on humans if they are so different like you claim? I'll tell you why cause all living creatures still respond similar to certain stuff

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Easy, they are not human. Your argument is invalid here. We use all sorts of animals for testing because we won't risk human life. Seriously, pay attention when you get to science class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

jfreels lets see some links you can find that say mice and rats don't have feelings or know whats going to happen to them. just cause the rats and mice can't say what there body is feeling doesn't mean they don't feel it
or this it is considered humane because rats and mice are considered pests so it is the approved way to deal with pests

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You've never passed out have you. I didn't want to post this, but google search 'exit bag'. I won't divulge why/how I know more about this topic than you, but I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

good thing Columbus didn't listen to everybody who told him the world was flat at that point in time no one tried to disprove that it was flat cause there king said so. also good thing the wright brothers didn't listen to everybody saying that it was impossible to fly

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Maybe you do pay attention in school :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

for the person who said it was inhumane to stick a rat or mouse straight in the freezer what about using the cooler method of gassing dry ice is allot colder then everyones freezer At temperatures above −56.4 °C (−69.5 °F) and pressures below 5.2 bar (the triple point), CO2 changes from a solid to a gas with no intervening liquid form, through a process called sublimation. OK now most peoples freezers are around low teens old freezer to 0 new freezer yet your roommate thinks it's ok to dry ice the mice and rats do the math dry ice is alot colder then a freezer or is it the fact that maybe the mice and rats lungs freeze before they die that makes her think it is more humane

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Wow, just wow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

jfreels
but noticed you either refused to awnser my question as did everybody else so i'll say it again

how does a mouse die when gassed with c02?

don't they still suffocate whether asleep or awake it is still suffocation cause you removed the oxygen

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Because it's blindly obvious, they pass out and then their body shuts down. It's just about the same thing the shot of the pink stuff does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ice#1

I'm starting to think people just want somebody to hold there hand and lead them threw life so they don't have to make decisions for themselves and are to dense to go from what there (master, hand holder) told them was a fact so they dont bother to question what they are told

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They are called scientists. I believe them before I'd believe you because they do scientific tests. I'll bet you don't believe in science.

actually i'm 37 years old and was very good in science class in the top 10% for the country according to (can't rember the name of it but that test they give everybody once a year)
further more i was so good in science class when was in the 7th grade they moved me to collage level Junior science classes. where i still aced my classes and even those teachers told me i should become a scientist or doctor cause i just new stuff other people had to study to know


OK but none the less you say they pass out then there body shuts down well yeah when you remove all the oxygen that tends to happen and it is called suffocation. no matter how you look at it it they are still suffocated to death just cause they are asleep don't mean they aint suffocated

rats with documented genetic histories are used in animal testing for a number of reasons, including their frequent reproduction, genetic purity and similarities to human biology.

link to them saying rats have similarities to humans which you say they don't you keep saying I'm uninformed yet each time you make such statements i go find info on the net that proves my statements right interesting huh
http://www.wisegeek.com/why-are-rats...al-testing.htm



hmm maybe somebody else should of paid a Lil better attention in science class

hmm a study they did with c02 on rats
http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei=...g9ID_N68fU9A--
so enter into search effects of c02 on rats there is only 1 study done that poped up on my search window and that it showed c02 to be used as such. Carbon dioxide as a short-term restraint anaesthetic in rats with
subclinical respiratory disease
nothing came up on how c02 is humane to use on rats. but if you change the wording a lil it comes back with links of how pest control people use co2 to kill pest rats cause they consider it safer then traps or other poisons which leave residual traces of poison

enter humane ways to kill rats
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-m...-mice_139.html
hmm says use poison

vet says they don't gas rats
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0162823AAQb3zd

it took going threw over a page of links before 1 link about using c02 was mentioned most saying poison so if in fact it was so humane why didn't it make the first page interesting

Euthanasia is just another word for killing it still ends up dead any way you look at it. call it humane or inhumane you still took a life


i do gets tons of pleasure from this debate with you though but at least show some links to prove how it is humane

It's the VERY FIRST LINK! Learn to google, how to use punctuation, proper use of words and other such things that a 37 year old should know how to do. :rolleyes: BTW, your profile states that you're 36 and you signed up about two weeks ago. :confused: happy birthday :confused:

I googled for "humane way to euthanize rats" and got this: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=...49e4ca0c47f7e4

I don't see anywhere on the links on the first page that "BB gun to the temple" is the humane method used by anyone. Even when I use my pro google searching skills to look for BB gun being a humane form of euthanasia, all I come up with is using the CO2 cartridges to humanely euthanize rats.

Also, you state in this thread that you "smack in the back of the head". Which is it?

Look, Kevin, I'm not trying to start fights with you but you won't convince me otherwise. Let's just agree to disagree. I'm not even sure why I keep replying to you. I don't even euthanize my own mice/rats. I have researched it though and if/when I start my colony I will use CO2.

i say I'm 37 cause here in a couple months is my birthday so technically I'm 26 3/4 so I'm closer to 37 then 36

then the bb gun was a joke

I've said twice in this thread alone i flip mice in head with my finger and use a pencil or pen to smack rats in the back of the head

i too could careless about this topic but i like to argue/debate so here i am

just noticed my search was changed from Google to yahoo but when search Google it still had some of the same stuff yahoo had just a few added c02 links

and also I'm the same way you aint going to convince me that taking all the oxygen away from a living being is humane whether it is asleep or awake a rat or a human

how about lets talk politics or religion? lol

I am currently breeding mice for my baby ball and 5ft corn. i did a lot of research on pre killing them for freezing or same day feeding. the co2 chamber was in fact the most humane and plenty of reasonable proof to support it. the website i found was actually a design for euthanizing small pets up to two pounds for pet owners that did not have the finances to have them put down at the vet. carbon dioxide or co2 levels at less than roughly ten percent eliminates pain, increasing the percentage makes it an anesthetic (sp?) at this point the animal is on cloud nine. high concentrations kill the animal. and i will say high concentrations do cause respiratory, throat, and nasal irritation but by that time the animal is beyond feeling these side effects. for my gas chamber i used co2 released from mixing baking soda and vinegar. i think the cartridges are too pressurized and stress and could possibly cause harm to mice before the gas begins to work. this is my system and what i believe to be the most humane way to pre kill mice.

meant to say 36 3/4 not 26 3/4

I take the mouse or rat in the tail and bang its head into something hard. This is very effective and fast! After this I pull head and spine apart to be 100% it is dead. I really don't think anyone can come up with a faster and more humane way - well maybe dynamite :)