Live feeding ASFs = Irresponsible?

I have been breeding my own mice for my BP and feeding live, getting an excellent feeding response everytime with the exception of during shed or if I offer a f/t (which has become a waste of my money). The pet store warned me never to feed live, but I decided to do so as I read on here if it is done responsibly with supervision there is no problem. Recently (with your help) I have discovered that mice will quickly become too small of a meal and I have decided to start breeding some ASF rats. I will be purchasing them from a person who breeds them for reptile food. He is also the person from the pet store who I bought the snake from and told me not to feed live. He warned me that these rats can be aggressive and bite me. He again told me not to feed live. For you live feeder's out there feeding ASFs: What is your opinion on this matter? Would it be irresponsible to feed live ASF rats to my snake in a controlled and supervised manner? Anyone out there that feeds exclusively live ASFs with no problems?

Asf's do become aggressive when they mature and in breeding groups, as far as feeding them to your snake, they rarely if ever fight, once coiled by your snake. I 've heard of snakes not switching back to regular rats after being started on asf's.

Yes, I have also read that once a snake has been eating ASF it may not ever take anything else or would be very difficult to switch it back. I am not worried about this as I plan to breed them for as long as I have the snake. There just seems to be so many advantages to ASF.

Personally I would consider ASF's the least risky to feed live. The things basically just sit in a corner and quiver as soon as you introduce them to the snake. Once stuck, they rarely offer any resistance at all.

Just don't forget you are not a snake, they will leap across a tub to take a hunk out of your hand. Nasty little buggers.

Just so you know - ASF's are similarly sized to mice - maybe just a bit bigger, but certainly not your traditional rat size.

I feed everything live - rats, mice and ASF's - ASF's put up the least resistance.

Asf females can be pretty aggressive, males on the other hand are pretty docile. Feeding live there is more of a chance of an injury occring with your snake. As long as superise untel the asf is forsure dead there should be no problem. The only problem with feeding live is when owners throw a mouse with a snake, and leave. That's where a serious injury can occur. I wish you best of luck!

-Payson!

Whats an ASF rat ? :confused:

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Originally Posted by tonyaltn

Whats an ASF rat ? :confused:

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African Soft Fur rat.

To OP, I don't see how ASF's are better than a mouse (size wise), I'd try live rats if they'll take them. If not, there is nothing wrong with a live ASF and your snake. However, a live ASF and you....be prepared to get bit a couple times, they're very mean sometimes!:rage:

From my experiance with ASF's I have had no problems. But I will vouch for the fact that once they get an ASF they will refuse rats. I have 3 BP's that were rat feeders that will not touch em now after ASF's. My mistake was trying to get rid of a little overflow of ASFs and giving them to those snakes.

As far as aggression, I have never seen any aggression towards the snakes and so far none towards me. I will usually use a glove on them tho just in case. But like the others have said once you put them with the snake they almost except what is gonna come next.

Good luck with them. I just started a breeding group of 1.2 and will probably start a few more when I see how this first one works out.

Also, it can take months for an ASF to be a considerable amount bigger than a mouse. Wasnt worth the time to me, or the amount of killing they did between themselves.

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Originally Posted by Paysons Bps

Asf females can be pretty aggressive, males on the other hand are pretty docile. Feeding live there is more of a chance of an injury occring with your snake. As long as superise untel the asf is forsure dead there should be no problem. The only problem with feeding live is when owners throw a mouse with a snake, and leave. That's where a serious injury can occur. I wish you best of luck!

-Payson!

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No there's not.

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Originally Posted by bones93

From my experiance with ASF's I have had no problems. But I will vouch for the fact that once they get an ASF they will refuse rats. I have 3 BP's that were rat feeders that will not touch em now after ASF's. My mistake was trying to get rid of a little overflow of ASFs and giving them to those snakes.

As far as aggression, I have never seen any aggression towards the snakes and so far none towards me. I will usually use a glove on them tho just in case. But like the others have said once you put them with the snake they almost except what is gonna come next.

Good luck with them. I just started a breeding group of 1.2 and will probably start a few more when I see how this first one works out.

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Really? I've never experienced that problem. In fact, I've started most of my hatchlings on hopper ASF's and after three feedings, they switch beautifully to rat pups.

I've also fed off old ASF's to my established group of adults and they don't even blink when a rat is offered the next time.

Why would you feed ASFs and not regular rats?

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Why would you feed ASFs and not regular rats?

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ASFs are a ball pythons natural food source and can be very enticing to picky eaters. Also, their full grown size is about the size of a small rat, which is really the biggest sized feeder a ball python needs to be fed.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

ASFs are a ball pythons natural food source and can be very enticing to picky eaters. Also, their full grown size is about the size of a small rat, which is really the biggest sized feeder a ball python needs to be fed.

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lol idk about you but iv got 2k gram females that can take medium rats pretty easy with almost no lump, and its not uncommon to see 3k and 4k gram females, that size is well beyond needing only a small rat imo

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

ASFs are a ball pythons natural food source and can be very enticing to picky eaters. Also, their full grown size is about the size of a small rat, which is really the biggest sized feeder a ball python needs to be fed.

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Thank you. I know that, but I don't understand why someone would choose to feed ASFs without trying a more widely available food source that most snakes will readily feed on first.

really I dont think any rodent can put up much of a fight with a hungry constrictor! LOL dont leave them alone not eating for any long period of time.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Thank you. I know that, but I don't understand why someone would choose to feed ASFs without trying a more widely available food source that most snakes will readily feed on first.

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Next to rats and mice, I would say ASFs are the next most widely available.

Then why do so many people have trouble finding them? Why aren't they in petstores, like gerbils and hamsters and other stuff they might eat?

I just have to disagree with that. Maybe it depends on your area.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Then why do so many people have trouble finding them? Why aren't they in petstores, like gerbils and hamsters and other stuff they might eat?

I just have to disagree with that. Maybe it depends on your area.

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Many people who breed feeder mice and rats also breed ASFs.

Here in illinois they are relatively common. I know a few people who breed them.

No one breeds hamsters or gerbils for snake food.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Then why do so many people have trouble finding them? Why aren't they in petstores, like gerbils and hamsters and other stuff they might eat?

I just have to disagree with that. Maybe it depends on your area.

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They are illegal in my area, and I have heard many people say they're difficult to find.

I still didn't really get an answer as to why someone would feed ASFs over regular rats (this isn't directed at you, just a general statement).

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Originally Posted by Savage420Siege

I have been breeding my own mice for my BP and feeding live, getting an excellent feeding response everytime with the exception of during shed or if I offer a f/t (which has become a waste of my money). The pet store warned me never to feed live, but I decided to do so as I read on here if it is done responsibly with supervision there is no problem. Recently (with your help) I have discovered that mice will quickly become too small of a meal and I have decided to start breeding some ASF rats. I will be purchasing them from a person who breeds them for reptile food. He is also the person from the pet store who I bought the snake from and told me not to feed live. He warned me that these rats can be aggressive and bite me. He again told me not to feed live. For you live feeder's out there feeding ASFs: What is your opinion on this matter? Would it be irresponsible to feed live ASF rats to my snake in a controlled and supervised manner? Anyone out there that feeds exclusively live ASFs with no problems?

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i feed asf to my females that im pumping up and i drop em in and they snatch them up instantly................i only feed live but i dont leave them unattended,i make sure my snakes get em first!

I breed asf's and mice. I have some balls that will only eat mice and some that will only eat asf's. and some it doesn't matter what I throw in. The problem with feeding the hatchlings asf's is after awhile they might not take anything else. the same with feeding mice. If you're selling the hatchlings, they are much harder to sell if they are feeding on asf's. if feeding live and the snake grabs the rodent so the rodent can bite. stick the tongs or something in the rodents mouth until the snake kills it. I also have a female over 4000 grams that eats mice, so they are not too small. and if you want to get a breeding female off of asf's. do it right after she dumps her eggs, mine will eat anything at that time.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Really? I've never experienced that problem. In fact, I've started most of my hatchlings on hopper ASF's and after three feedings, they switch beautifully to rat pups.

I've also fed off old ASF's to my established group of adults and they don't even blink when a rat is offered the next time.

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I've had much the same experience with ASFs. There are a few picky eaters that will only take ASFs but I feel that a picky eater is a picky eater whether its stuck on mice, ASFs or some other rodent.

Personally ASFs were life savers so to speak. I had a girl hovering around 700g for a YEAR cause she only took one or two mice (40 grams or so) at a time:(. Once I started her on ASFs she would take one or two 60 gram'ers and she started growing like a weed. Some of the retired breeders I have (male and female) are close to 90 grams. That's a GREAT meal compared to a 30 or 40 gram mouse. That being said, you would have to feed a large (3-4k gram) snake multiple ASFs to consider it a good meal.

I've had a few ASFs bite a snake that struck and coiled it in a bad position but they generally don't seem to "fight" once coiled. Also, they don't have the same anatomy when it comes to rear legs like a Norway rat would use to kick and scratch a snake with.

Oh, and my ASFs are NOT aggressive with me. They will bite if you stick your finger in their face but I can go in and handle the babies and adults with no issues. They have NEVER charged me.

Almost all of my snakes will eat asf's and rats and only one is a solid asf eater and she is one of those picky eaters, but does real well with asf's.

I start my hatchlings on asf's also and go to rat fuzzies and then pups and on up.
Most of my larger snakes though will readily switch back and forth between asf's and regular rats,

The worst part about feeding asf's is when they aren't eaten, retrieving them to feed to a different snake can be tricky, lol.

Asf's are so prevalent here it's hard to give them away sometimes :confused:

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Originally Posted by don15681

I breed asf's and mice. I have some balls that will only eat mice and some that will only eat asf's. and some it doesn't matter what I throw in. The problem with feeding the hatchlings asf's is after awhile they might not take anything else. the same with feeding mice. If you're selling the hatchlings, they are much harder to sell if they are feeding on asf's. if feeding live and the snake grabs the rodent so the rodent can bite. stick the tongs or something in the rodents mouth until the snake kills it. I also have a female over 4000 grams that eats mice, so they are not too small. and if you want to get a breeding female off of asf's. do it right after she dumps her eggs, mine will eat anything at that time.

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As a general rule, hatchlings are the EASIEST to change prey items with. They are hard wired to eat more frequently and more opportunistically to grow as quickly as possible to avoid becoming prey to other predators. That means in their natural setting, they can't afford to be selective about what they choose to eat. By taking advantage of this instinct, it's quite easy to switch them early on to the prey you would want them to be on for their lifetime.

Thanks to all who have commented. I am on my way to pick up the trio for breeding. For anyone who is wondering why I am switching from breeding mice to ASF here are a few reasons.

- Less smell than mice
- Adults grow larger (not necessarily in size, but 2-3 times in weight)
- They are the "rodent of choice" for these snakes
- They are readily available to me (as I am breeding my own)
- They usually have large litters
- I can feed the young ones to my Bearded Dragons, and adults to my snake
- If my snake becomes very large I should have plenty of adult rats around and double up the meal to achieve an appropriate feeding.

If I stay with the mice I will eventually run out of feeders once I have to start feeding multiples at a time for a good meal (which could become many at a time). Then I would have to go and buy some from the petstore which defeats the whole purpose of breeding my own.

I have a little breeder group of ASFs. They have not proven to be difficult to handle, but I always remember that they are not domesticated animals. I tail them, I never try to pick them up in a way that would allow one to bite me.

I had a male first, and it was quite docile--then I got a pair of females for him. Within a day of introduction, his attitude changed. Instead of retreating to the back of the bin when I opened it, he came forward, toward me. His attitude was rather aggressive, so I did not give him the chance to bite me. I presume he was defending the females.

So, when a group is set up, I do not trust the male at all, either. With rats, the male is usually docile, but the females can nip if you go near their pups (I cull the bitey ones, but it happens occasionally).

As for my snakes...I tried ASFs on my picky eaters, and did not have success. One of my mousers did eat the ASF, the other did not. On the next feeding, the ASF was rejected by both.

ASFs do simply freeze when confronted with a snake, so I don't think they are more dangerous to live-feed, but I always supervise closely.

I can think of reasons why a person would want to feed ASFs exclusively, but I personally do much better with rats.

ASFs get to the size of a small rat--they're suitable prey for most adult ball pythons, though larger individuals may have to eat a couple to make a meal.

ASFs have a reputation for being very prolific--they can have very large litters. ASFs grow slowly--this can be both a detriment and a benefit. If you're feeding baby snakes, the ASFs babies will be an acceptable size for longer.
Probably the BIGGEST reason I can think of is if you have to keep the rodents in your home and do not have a shed, barn, or facility. ASFs have a mild, overripe-fruity, zoo odor that is MUCH less strong than the gamey, pungent odor rats and mice have. ASFs also take twice as long to get stinky.

If I had to choose between having a snake on mice, and having one on ASFs, I would choose the ASFs for sure. But, if a snake will take domestic rats, those really work best.

I only feed live asf males to my 880g male BP.... always supervised. I have NEVER had a problem with biting or scratching during feeding. He has bed fed asf for the past year and has a very strong feeding response. I would feel more worried feeding live rats than asf.
I, on the other hand, am bit by them on a weekly basis when cleaning their bin or giving food pellets. One I have actually named "Big Meanie". He has amazing accuracy at biting me right on my knuckles and not letting go. Guess what buddy? You're going next!!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Really? I've never experienced that problem. In fact, I've started most of my hatchlings on hopper ASF's and after three feedings, they switch beautifully to rat pups.

I've also fed off old ASF's to my established group of adults and they don't even blink when a rat is offered the next time.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

As a general rule, hatchlings are the EASIEST to change prey items with. They are hard wired to eat more frequently and more opportunistically to grow as quickly as possible to avoid becoming prey to other predators. That means in their natural setting, they can't afford to be selective about what they choose to eat. By taking advantage of this instinct, it's quite easy to switch them early on to the prey you would want them to be on for their lifetime.

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Robin is absolutely right. I also start my babies on ASF's because they are the right size and they move more to stimulate the feeding response. I too have fed off over flow ASF's to adult BPs and have never had a problem with them continuing to accept their F/T rats as well. I believe its possible that a snake can get stuck on ASF's but its not very likely unless you have that one BP that just doesn't want to eat anything. In fact, I have a sub-adult BP that would only eat ASF's and nothing else for 2 years. I purchased her knowing this. Now she will take small rats from me but they have to be similarly colored like the ASF's.

Feeding live ASF's is no different than feeding any other rodent. They do not attack, chew and bite the BP like other rodents will but they can and so should never be left un-attended. BUT, you need to learn exactly how to raise them to avoid the murder massacre's that happen with these guys at the slightest mistake. 1 day without water. They kill and eat each other. No food? Same thing. Too many females? None will produce. Leave a sexually mature male in there? More killing. Colony didn't grow up together? KILL! SO many rules with these guys. Plus they produce like mad and even with a small 1.2 colony, you would be over run in a few months.

If you ever plan to not feed ASF's at any point in the future than just switch to live rats now. Honestly, there are ways and tricks to get you BP to take F/T. A couple of which no one ever tries.

1. Tough love. Do not feed the BP for at least 2 weeks. If it only eats every 2 weeks due to being picky then wait 3 weeks. This will not harm a BP as long as it is not a fresh hatchling. Hunger is the driving force.

2. Start small. Choose rats that are just weenlings. Much like the size of a mouse. Thaw it completely and warm it very well. NO boiling water & NO microwave. Hot tap water or a heat mat or place it on flexwatt and flip it after a little while. Hold it up to a hot light bulb or heat lamp, etc..

3. Heat signature and smell. The MOST important things to any snake. A very picky snake may not like the odd smell a hair dryer adds to the rat. So try very hot water from the faucet instead. Rat in freezerbag in hot water for 15 minutes. If smell is not strong or enticing enough, ask the pet store for a small baggie of dirty mouse/rat bedding. Put the open bag near the BP enclosure for a couple hours to pre scent the room. If it smells food nearby it may get into feeding mode.

4. BPs love wet rats! Why? I have no idea but for many a wet rat is a winning last resort. Dunk the now thawed and warm rat in warm water and dab off the excess on a paper towel.

5. Offer with long feeding tongs, at night when the sun is down, in a dimly lit room. Do the "zombie dance". Make the rat move just a little. Not too close to the snakes face and not very jerky movements. This can freak the snake out and turn him off food.

Also. Though ASF's are usually very still and do not react to the snake you must still stay there and watch til it is killed. Its also best if using a tub to have the lid on. They will jump out of the tub in a split second and take off. Ive had this happen. They will also bite a snake if left alone. I have also has this happen once. I left it alone for 10 minutes and it had given a couple little test bites to the snake. Luckily it only left a couple little red marks but no actual bites or damage. SO even if you feed hundreds and they never showed any aggression to the snake, never trust them.