Burm Had IBD--Had to Euthanize It.

Well today I decided to go mist the snakes that needed to be misted, so I filled up the bottle with warm water and headed to my room.

I misted the pink toe, then moved on to the QT room. Misted my favorite Blood girl, then misted the naughty Blood. Moved over to the Burm, and I even said to myself before misting the second Blood, "I'm going to mist that one last."

Well, I opened up the tub took the Burm out and put it on its lid on top of my rat tank. The back of his head started to twitch and shake, a.k.a. head tremors. I misted his tub, then looked closely at him.

He never looked good, always skinny so I took him home from the sanctuary to try to get him to eat. He never ate anything I offered and was never interested. Never acted lethargic until I noticed him today.

His jaw was at the side, he was opening his mouth and twisting around, started getting head tremors, so I knew what I had to do. I talked to a friend of mine (BP breeder) about it while the Burm showed the symptoms and was told to do what I think is best, so I decided to euthanize him (freeze him).

I threw out his tub, threw out everything he touched, disinfected the hell out of the area his tub was place at, took a shower afterwards, and put on clean clothes. His tub was sort of close to my mean Blood, but from what I've read the only way to spread IBD is the snake gets into contact with another, you touch the snake and touch another snake without washing hands in between, and the other snake touching something the sick snake had already touched previously.

Here's a photo of him before I went to go freeze him. I only had small snack bags so I sort of had to stuff him in the bag, but he did fit pretty well in it since he was so skinny and small.
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...603101151a.jpg

I wasn't very attached to him anyways, I just thought I could try to get this Burm to eat and it ended up having IBD. Keep in mind this snake is from the Texas seizure, so it had to have had something. I informed the sanctuary about the Burm so hopefully none of the others have it too. They said they'd check on the Burms as well.

One question, I had a UTH for heat connected to a thermostat, so would it be okay to reuse both items or would I need to completely toss everything?

I'm so sorry for your loss....

Id be interested in hearing what a Necropsy brings back (should you decide to do one)

Sorry to hear Tiffany

Might be best to stick further animals in a shoebox tub and in the freezer.

Sticking that animal in a sandwich bag probably suffocated him before he chilled down and fell asleep until he inevitably passed away.

You state he had IBD... but never had it tested?
Just having tremors, and not eating aren't sure signs...
Freezing it doesn't seem like the best idea either...
burms, even babies are a little too large for that...

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Originally Posted by ColdBloodedCarnival

I'm so sorry for your loss....

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It's alright, I read a couple caresheets and I was positive his husbandry was great, though I assume the IBD was causing him to lose his appetite along with being housed with another Burm in a big tub at the sanctuary. All the others there are doing wonderfully, just this Burm got it bad.

I don't doubt your judgement about it being time to put the poor thing down...but I would not call it "IBD" unless you get that specifically diagnosed from a vet who does the tests required to identify it. IBD is a very specific and serious diagnosis, but it gets misunderstood far too often by folks referring to it every time they see a wobbly or sick snake.

As for the equipment being safe to reuse...if you can insure it's been been properly disinfected, I don't see why not.

How do you KNOW that it had IBD? Are you getting it necropsied to be sure? I'm also a bit shocked how non-chalant you are about stuffing it into a SNACK sized bag to freeze it. :(

Did the sanctuary not have any terms and conditions for you fostering, including getting proper veterinary care before deciding to euthanize on your own?

I dunno - I just find the entire post a bit disturbing...:(

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Id be interested in hearing what a Necropsy brings back (should you decide to do one)

Sorry to hear Tiffany

Might be best to stick further animals in a shoebox tub and in the freezer.

Sticking that animal in a sandwich bag probably suffocated him before he chilled down and fell asleep until he inevitably passed away.

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It wasn't my snake, it was a snake I brought home from the sanctuary that I wanted to try to get it to eat since it wouldn't take anything offered.

I believe I didn't zip the whole bag up, I did leave some space for airflow since I thought about the whole suffocating thing, which would have been horrible. I can only stand freezing snakes instead of suffocating or banging on the head with something heavy really hard (I could NEVER do that:()

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Originally Posted by FIEND_FO_LYFE

You state he had IBD... but never had it tested?
Just having tremors, and not eating aren't sure signs...
Freezing it doesn't seem like the best idea either...
burms, even babies are a little too large for that...

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He was twisting his body around too, so I assume it was IBD. We had a couple snakes from the Texas seizure have IBD so I think they could have passed it on to some of the Burms, although this is the only one I've seen showing signs.

I was always told the best way to euthanize is to freeze it, so that's what I did. I couldn't ever do the other ways, and I wouldn't go to the vet for a shot to get it euthanized since it's pretty expensive and this snake isn't mine. He was very limp when I took him out as well, so I assume he was just about dead.

Freezing the animal will make it impossible to do a Necropsy. freezing them destroys the tissue and makes pathology near impossible to determine.

I understand your concern and can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing..but if this animal has been in your collection longer than a few weeks you might want to start looking at your other pythons.

As for whats ok to save...I'd say nothing..

there is no known way IBD is transmitted or how long it can live outside a host.. trash it all.. and anything he touch or was with in 20' of..just to be safe..

Hopefully you properly QT'ed this animal..

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Originally Posted by JLC

I don't doubt your judgement about it being time to put the poor thing down...but I would not call it "IBD" unless you get that specifically diagnosed from a vet who does the tests required to identify it. IBD is a very specific and serious diagnosis, but it gets misunderstood far too often by folks referring to it every time they see a wobbly or sick snake.

As for the equipment being safe to reuse...if you can insure it's been been properly disinfected, I don't see why not.

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Even if it was not IBD, I knew he couldn't have made it because the way he was limp, skinny, and showing those frightening signs. I've seen videos on IBD, I've seen boas with IBD at the sanctuary, and I don't know of any other diseases with those symptoms besides IBD and this other disease I can't remember the name of (all snakes get it though).

I will most definitely try to disinfect it as much as I can, what would I need to use to be able to do so without ruining it?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How do you KNOW that it had IBD? Are you getting it necropsied to be sure? I'm also a bit shocked how non-chalant you are about stuffing it into a SNACK sized bag to freeze it. :(

Did the sanctuary not have any terms and conditions for you fostering, including getting proper veterinary care before deciding to euthanize on your own?

I dunno - I just find the entire post a bit disturbing...:(

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For the first part, read the above reply, and I was looking for larger bags but I couldn't find anything, but I definitely did not want that snake spreading anything to my snakes in the QT room or anywhere else in my house. He was just about gone, I did leave a space in the zip-lock open for airflow, and he wasn't packed in the bag, he did have some space since he was pretty small.

I didn't mean for people to attack me on this thread, just had to inform them about the Burm today.

Tiffany, check into Trifectant.

Its what I use once a month to completely "NUKE" enclosures

It doesnt get much more hardcore than this.....

http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/pages/pro_trifect.html

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

So was it diagnosed with IBD or you simply took a preemptive strike? Also Freezing the animal will make it impossible to do a Necropsy. freezing them destroys the tissue and makes pathology near impossible to determine.

I understand your concern and can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing..but if this animal has been in your collection longer than a few weeks you might want to start looking at your other pythons.

As for whats ok to save...I'd say nothing..

there is no known way IBD is transmitted or how long it can live outside a host.. trash it all.. and anything he touch or was with in 20' of..just to be safe..

Hopefully you properly QT'ed this animal..

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Every snake in my room seems to be OK, I'm not noticing any signs of them acting strange like the Burm did. In the QT room I checked on everyone before misting, and everyone seemed to be just fine. However, my mean Blood is closest to my Burm, though she is still as mean as always and never noticed a change with her behavior, but I will definitely pull her out later and check on her.

He was QT'ed in the far corner of the room, away from the entrance of the room. Like I said the Blood was closest to him but I don't think anything major could have happened with her, although I will double check her later.

I will disinfect anything he touched and throw away anything I need to so I'm sure my snakes cannot get whatever he had.

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Tiffany, check into Trifectant.

Its what I use once a month to completely "NUKE" enclosures

It doesnt get much more hardcore than this.....

http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/pages/pro_trifect.html

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Thanks! Now that's the stuff we all need:gj:

Sorry it didn't work out TIffany. Based on our conversation beforehand, I think you did the right thing. Whether or not it was IBD or not, the snake was suffering and wasn't well and really had little to no chance of survival.

To clarify, this snake was part of the USGE seizure in Texas and was one of many the Phoenix Herp Society went and picked up. From what I've heard and seen, some of the stuff they brought back was pretty abysmal. Some of the critters they brought back from there had all degrees of illness. Could it have been IBD? Yeah. Could it have been something else? Of course. Did she do the right thing? I believe so.

Its easy to sit here and second guess her, but she made an informed decision and it was not an impulsive one. Was freezing the best way? Maybe not, but not everyone is prepared to deal a smashing blow to the skull. There have been many debates over euthanization methods in the past, and I've yet to see one that one conclusive.

Cut her a little bit of slack, her post was a lot more nonchalant than she actually was.

Without a necrospy(which you cannot do since you froze it) you can't say it was IBD. With as bad of shape as he was in, he could easily have been losing motor control due to the poor shape(through being skinny) and organ failure just before a natural end(which would have happened due to the bad condition he was in to begin with), instead of saying it was automatically IBD just because of tremors and he was skinny and lethargic.

It's a good idea to sterilize and throw out and all that anyway, because there's no telling what he could have had. Euthanizing by freezing or other methods has been discussed to death(sorry for the unintended pun) in several threads. Since you took the snake home from a Sanctuary, I would have thought you would take it back to them for them to euthanize as they saw fit, rather than do it on your own. Just as a matter of policy from most rescues and such, that seems to be the norm rather than home euthanisia.

In the future I would seriously advise you to have a quarentine area further area from your collection than just in a corner of the same room. If you cannot set up a spot in another area of the house, I wouldn't bring anything even a little bit suspect home at all. Just to protect your own animals, understand. Feeling bad for the little skinny guy and hoping you could help is all well and good, but I do not want to read about more of your animals falling ill and dying just because you wanted to help out a sickly one. That would be horrible.

Big hugs for having to lose the poor little guy. I hope that nothing else gets sick. I'll be holding thumbs that it was nothing contagious for you.

IMO
You did the right thing. This snake was very sick!

I had to put one down last year. To make an aggrivating situation short, I purchased a ball python last year that arrived to me very sick. I went to the vet and one of the first things he told me was that it would be in my best interest to cull the animal. We tried Baytril----After 3 more visits and no progress, I opted to put him down. During all 4 visits to the vet, the vet told me I should cull the snake( in other words-- put him down). The vet explained to me that not enough research/testing, etc. had been done in the herp field to identify and cure all herp viruses, etc.

Just did the typeing for Tiff. She's a strong, smart young lady!

Though, as others have mentioned, it can't be "called" IBD without bloodwork, it definitely sounds like a serious neurological condition that puts too many other snakes (both yours and the ones at the shelter) at risk. As it is not your snake, it is not your obligation to pay for blood work, and if the sanctuary has other sick snakes, it's unlikely that they would. Without a permanent owner, there's almost no chance the snake would have received treatment and vet care, even if the problem was treatable (which is unlikely when it comes to neuro problems).

I'm very sorry for your loss and very glad that none of your other animals were affected.

Tiffany, taking on abused animals in light of the obvious risk is a very noble and compelling thing to do. Your maturity is beyond your youthful years and it is amazing at times.

When I first read the post I was a bit surprised by your tone and that you chose to put the animal down yourself. After one of the people explained a little of the history behind this situation, I feel differently now.

Whether or not the animal had IBD is somewhat irrelevant if you, in good conscious believed the animal was suffering. Sometime, we as adults and as human beings have to make difficult decisions that are unpopular.

Kudos for your graceful handling of the comments and making a choice that you can live with.;)

Before I euthanized the snake, I talked to one of the people at the sanctuary about the Burm and he told me if it was really that bad I can go ahead and freeze him and dispose of him however I needed to. So I did talk to someone before I made the choice the euthanize him just to make sure if it was ok with him that I did that. I did tell him to check all the other Burms in case they got it too.

I felt I did the right thing with freezing him because I simply do not have the heart to smash its head and do not have money to take a snake that is not mine to see an exotic veteranarian. In the future, I wont be making a thread like this again, and if my snakes do end up getting what the Burm had I wouldn't dare to post.

Thanks to the ones that did have nice posts and the ones who posted helpful info that didn't offend me.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sounds very rough :(

I don't know how long it takes IBD to show up in animals other than ball pythons, but I would consider all your animals under quarantine now that shared a room with it if they weren't already before. From what I have heard, some python species can live with it for a while much like some boas can. I would be keeping a very close eye on them.

Hopefully it wasn't IBD or something easily transmissible.

I know it must be hard to be around animals every day that need rescuing. I have taken in rescues before on more than one occasion. We take a huge risk in doing so, though..

I'm sorry you were offended by some peoples' posts but I really do think they had your (or the snake's) best interest at heart. It is true that it cannot be conclusive that it was IBD since there was no necropsy, but you made a judgement call that was necessary.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sounds very rough :(

I don't know how long it takes IBD to show up in animals other than ball pythons, but I would consider all your animals under quarantine now that shared a room with it if they weren't already before. From what I have heard, some python species can live with it for a while much like some boas can. I would be keeping a very close eye on them.

Hopefully it wasn't IBD or something easily transmissible.

I know it must be hard to be around animals every day that need rescuing. I have taken in rescues before on more than one occasion. We take a huge risk in doing so, though..

I'm sorry you were offended by some peoples' posts but I really do think they had your (or the snake's) best interest at heart. It is true that it cannot be conclusive that it was IBD since there was no necropsy, but you made a judgement call that was necessary.

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I hope to god it wasn't IBD, but knowing the symptoms it could have been, although I'm not a vet so I don't know for sure. It seemed very rough for him though, so I didn't want to keep this snake until the next time I go back to the sanctuary. That might've been torture for the snake if that is what I decided.

Sometimes it's strange seeing some sicknesses with some animals at the sanctuary, but others like RIs (in snakes) or MDB (in lizards) is common so it isn't too strange seeing those. Whenever I notice an RI (I see it so much I know how to point it out.. just the reptiles people bring to us have it) I always tell whoever is there at the moment so the snake can be checked out.

I was a bit offended by some posts, but not too many since I don't believe I really should take too much offense to others' posts on a forum. I hope they understood my situation and how I reacted to it though.


I may add in that in September I should be moving to my other house since the renter is kind of.. trashing the place.. and I will have my own reptile room where my established collection will be at, unless I decide to make it a QT room since it's the room at the back of the house.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Without a necrospy(which you cannot do since you froze it) you can't say it was IBD. With as bad of shape as he was in, he could easily have been losing motor control due to the poor shape(through being skinny) and organ failure just before a natural end(which would have happened due to the bad condition he was in to begin with), instead of saying it was automatically IBD just because of tremors and he was skinny and lethargic.

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Bingo. Lots of things can cause tremors and odd neurological symptoms, as Wolfy stated above, the overall poor shape of the snake is just as likely the cause for the loss of motor control.

Have the other snakes from the Texas seizure that have supposedly died from IBD been necropsied?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Bingo. Lots of things can cause tremors and odd neurological symptoms, as Wolfy stated above, the overall poor shape of the snake is just as likely the cause for the loss of motor control.

Have the other snakes from the Texas seizure that have supposedly died from IBD been necropsied?

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Not that I know of, I could ask though. There were some snakes that did experience the same symptoms as the Burm though.

I remember we had two Amazon Tree boas that came in with an RI and the symptoms my Burm had. There also was a Guinea or Nicaraguan boa (baby) with the others that was flipped over on its back and wouldn't right itself and also was leaning its head backwards (not stargazing really.. just sort of leaning back).

That's all I could remember the day we got the snakes and lizards from the seizure. Apart from that we had other things happen. We had these two Green Anacondas that were OK in the beginning but still kinda, eh. I'm not sure what happened to one of them, I just came there one day and we only had one left, but the other I offered a live weaned rat pup to and he wouldn't take it no matter what. All he did was sit there, so I took the pup out and picked up the snake and he was extremely limp. When I was handling him he started twisting his head and spinning so we had to euthanize him.

We also had some Kingsnakes, Milksnakes, and Cornsnakes die. They all would do the same thing, spin their bodies, become really stiff in their muscles, and some would even twist around extremely violently and just be dead the next minute.

We had this beautiful Nicaraguan boa left with bright pink sides, nice clean pattern on the tail, just an overall beautiful snake. One day I was checking through the tubs, feeding, watering, changing the substrate and this snake just died. It seemed pretty fresh because the body was still intact and not decomposed, so I thought it had died that morning or sometime during the night. Though I never noticed anything wrong with this snake, it was in great condition and would eat. It just ended up being dead one morning which was very odd.

The Burms we got had really no problems, I think one had an RI but that was easily treated, but everyone else was doing fine and eating. I believe the Burm I fostered was the only one that actually had that weird thing happen.

With the Ball pythons, a lot of them had ticks and mites which were easily treated for, one had an RI and Scale Rot so that one just eventually died. Any Ball pythons with RIs were treated for, and once the Ball pythons got to the sanctuary there was only one dead in the vision cage they were all in. No Ball pythons that I know of had the signs the Burm did, and some were even in great condition and ended up being adopted out.

Sorry for the long post, just there were some pretty odd things that happened that I felt I should mention to let you know that the Burm wasn't the only one showing those signs.

Hi,

It really does seem to be affecting a heck of a wide set of animals to be IBD Tiff. :(

There are a few parasites that can cause the symptoms you mention (some protozoans and a couple of others I think).

This is why a lot of people wince when they hear of people taking in animals from rescue centers.

They are always short of cash and, typicaly (but not always ), have neither the manpower or resources to really deal with half the problems they get.

By their very nature they get a lot of the real problem cases - and those cost money at a heck of a rate. :(

At this point it's possible they are actually increasing the chances of the animals dying compared to the situation they were "rescued" from.

I hope they get some of the animals tested to find out what the problem is and manage to get it under control. :please:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

It really does seem to be affecting a heck of a wide set of animals to be IBD Tiff. :(

There are a few parasites that can cause the symptoms you mention (some protozoans and a couple of others I think).

This is why a lot of people wince when they hear of people taking in animals from rescue centers.

They are always short of cash and, typicaly (but not always ), have neither the manpower or resources to really deal with half the problems they get.

By their very nature they get a lot of the real problem cases - and those cost money at a heck of a rate. :(

At this point it's possible they are actually increasing the chances of the animals dying compared to the situation they were "rescued" from.

I hope they get some of the animals tested to find out what the problem is and manage to get it under control. :please:


dr del

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To really think about it, it really does seem to be affecting a lot of the snakes at the sanctuary.

We did Flagyl them for the first two or so weeks and got rid of any ticks or mites they may have had. The Ball pythons were the ones that were heavily infested with ticks, only a handful had mites. We did manage to get rid of anything external, and hopefully most of everything internal. Maybe for some of them the Flagyl didn't kill off everything it had and the parasite population increased.

To be honest, I believe we may have saved mostly only the colubrids because those snakes were/got in the best shape after we brought them here (including most of the Burms and only a portion of the Ball pythons), but everything else seemed to be in mostly OK to bad shape, or went from OK to bad shape. Our Hognoses we got from there (two Mexican Hogs, two Albino Hogs) that we're keeping are doing great with nothing really happening which I'm glad of, the Albinos are very nice looking and pretty friendly.

To add in lizards, they all mostly did horribly. The Columbian Tegus were healthy and mean, and mostly all of the Brown Basilisks did well too. Mostly all of the Agamas (Butterflies and Dragons) died, and some of the Leopard geckos were in bad shape (very skinny). Many of our Water Dragons (MANY) died, so we only have about (guessing) 10 or so left.

Thanks for the kind words, I do really hope we can fight off whatever is going around. I don't notice any of our snakes aside from the seizure show any symptoms of anything bad.

I think you really need to send the next one that dies off for a necropsy--if it's IBD, reovirus, or paramyxovirus, or one of the other nasties, they may at least be able to guess at which one, and give some advice. Some of these diseases can be passed between all species of snakes, and even some lizards.

I also recommend finding an alternative to freezing. Snakes do not hibernate--they brumate. That means they stay awake when it gets cold, they don't fall asleep. They just slow down a lot. So, the snake would be conscious as it starts to freeze. It can't be considered humane, or quick, unless you're using liquid nitrogen, and the animal is quite small. It's no longer recommended by any veterinary association, for this reason. There are still a lot of people around who remember when it was recommended, and pass the info on, unfortunately. Due to a reptile's slow metabolism, there are few ways to humanely euthanize one, sadly. If that's your goal...well, there simply is no choice but to stop freezing and use another method. Not condemning you, of course--you only knew what you were told. I recommend looking into it further on veterinary sites and research papers if you want confirmation on this.

aww Tiff, I'm sorry to hear. He looked like he would have been a beautiful adult, too.

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Originally Posted by coldblooded

I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sounds very rough :(

I don't know how long it takes IBD to show up in animals other than ball pythons, but I would consider all your animals under quarantine now that shared a room with it if they weren't already before. From what I have heard, some python species can live with it for a while much like some boas can. I would be keeping a very close eye on them.

Hopefully it wasn't IBD or something easily transmissible.

I know it must be hard to be around animals every day that need rescuing. I have taken in rescues before on more than one occasion. We take a huge risk in doing so, though..

I'm sorry you were offended by some peoples' posts but I really do think they had your (or the snake's) best interest at heart. It is true that it cannot be conclusive that it was IBD since there was no necropsy, but you made a judgement call that was necessary.

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You know Tiffiny, I have been doing this since the early 80's and freezing was the way I was tought to put down a snake. My vet, Roger Klinenberg. Said the drugs are slow and painful. The smashing the head is in no way something I could ever do either.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I think you really need to send the next one that dies off for a necropsy--if it's IBD, reovirus, or paramyxovirus, or one of the other nasties, they may at least be able to guess at which one, and give some advice. Some of these diseases can be passed between all species of snakes, and even some lizards.

I also recommend finding an alternative to freezing. Snakes do not hibernate--they brumate. That means they stay awake when it gets cold, they don't fall asleep. They just slow down a lot. So, the snake would be conscious as it starts to freeze. It can't be considered humane, or quick, unless you're using liquid nitrogen, and the animal is quite small. It's no longer recommended by any veterinary association, for this reason. There are still a lot of people around who remember when it was recommended, and pass the info on, unfortunately. Due to a reptile's slow metabolism, there are few ways to humanely euthanize one, sadly. If that's your goal...well, there simply is no choice but to stop freezing and use another method. Not condemning you, of course--you only knew what you were told. I recommend looking into it further on veterinary sites and research papers if you want confirmation on this.

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I will definitely tell the owner of the sanctuary to get whatever dies next necropsied, just so he knows what is going around and how we can stop it and prevent it from spreading to any of our snakes or lizards.

All ways I were told on how to euthanize a snake seems too much for me, besides the freezing. The freezing method is the only one I can really stick with unless there was another way that works just as well and not tramatizing for me.

If I were to smash a snake's head with something heavy, I'd most likely be crying, disgusted, ashamed, and tramatized. So, the smashing is something I cannot ever think about doing, even if it was a very tiny snake. That "humane" way, to me anyways, seems very inhumane to do, even though it's quick and gets the job done.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

aww Tiff, I'm sorry to hear. He looked like he would have been a beautiful adult, too.

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His colors were amazing and his eyes were a golden-orange, so I do wish he didn't have whatever he did because he would have made a nice snake for someone, even though he would give ya a nip every one in a while. He also would hiss every time I was near him, but never really struck, was quite cute too:rolleyes::). I honestly would have asked to keep him if I got him to eat and he didn't show those odd signs.

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Originally Posted by boasandballs

You know Tiffiny, I have been doing this since the early 80's and freezing was the way I was tought to put down a snake. My vet, Roger Klinenberg. Said the drugs are slow and painful. The smashing the head is in no way something I could ever do either.

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I definitely agree with smashing the head, that is just awful. And I never knew the drugs actually caused them to have a slow & painful death, glad that you mentioned that.

I was always told that freezing was most likely the best way to go if I could not stand smashing the head, so that is what I did. If I was informed with another way, besides CO2, injections, and smashing the head, then I would have most likely done it if it wasn't something tramatizing for me to see.

Just wanted to post this, I was reading up more on IBD and paramyxovirus, and I found this: "Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without showing the respiratory signs. Regurgitation is not usually seen in Burmese pythons" http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

My Burm never regurgitated and never really even showed signs of an RI. That day he did show me signs of CNS disease. I'm trying to do some research to see if I can try to figure out what he could have had.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Just wanted to post this, I was reading up more on IBD and paramyxovirus, and I found this: "Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without showing the respiratory signs. Regurgitation is not usually seen in Burmese pythons" http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

My Burm never regurgitated and never really even showed signs of an RI. That day he did show me signs of CNS disease. I'm trying to do some research to see if I can try to figure out what he could have had.

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Tiff:

This means absolutely nothing. I can list diseases on both hands that would present the symptoms your burm had.

You can't just assume IBD. IBD is a disease with a myriad of symptoms - most of which overlap with other diseases.

The only way you are going to know what he had is by getting a necropsy done.

Wolfy already stated that the very fact that he was undernourished and dehydrated could have caused the neurological symptoms.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Tiff:

This means absolutely nothing. I can list diseases on both hands that would present the symptoms your burm had.

You can't just assume IBD. IBD is a disease with a myriad of symptoms - most of which overlap with other diseases.

The only way you are going to know what he had is by getting a necropsy done.

Wolfy already stated that the very fact that he was undernourished and dehydrated could have caused the neurological symptoms.

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Yes, I know it means nothing but it just can give me an idea of what could have caused it. I'm seeing other diseases that have the same symptoms, so maybe it couldn't have been IBD. Although we did get in many diseased snakes from the seizure so that Burm could have gotten at least something.

I'm unsure why he had stopped eating in the first place. All the others were housed the same way and had the same everything, and every one of them ate besides him.

This morning our Albino Burmese python "Butters" died. Last night it showed the same symptoms as my Burm did, head & neck spinning/twisting, open mouthed--spinning around, head tremors.

Butters was a real nice girl, we are all so sad about it happening. From what I was told, the two Rattlesnakes that were on the shelves below Butters were the FIRST ones showing the exact same symptoms, then everything else started to come down with it.

Even though this will probably tell me nothing as Skiploder said, I read Reptile Channel's information about paramyxovirus, and it states this: "Paramyxovirus is most common in vipers, but it is occasionally found in other snake species." Rattlesnakes are vipers, and a couple of our other vipers had died mysteriously too (all we know is they did not want to eat after a while).

So possibly the Rattlesnakes could have had it first, and then passed it on to our other snakes? The Texas seizure snakes were no where even close to where the Rattlesnakes and venomous snakes were, they were probably 20-30 feet apart from each other.

Not trying to get anyone mad that I keep assuming the worst diseases, but I'm just trying to think of the possibilities. Next time I'm there I'll give them a printed out sheet on paramyxovirus and tell them to do a necropsy on the next snake who shows signs of head tremors and the head spinning like Butters and the other snakes did, and to NOT freeze the snake.

Check for RIs, too--paramyxovirus is usually primarily respiratory, with neurological being secondary, whereas IBD is usually primarily neurological.

It's very important to determine which it is, and from what you described, it certainly sounds like one of them. IBD is always deadly, while paramyxo has a fatality rate as low as 30% with prompt and diligent supportive care. Once recovered, they're immune, and there's no evidence of carriers (wrong type of virus, and none have been found), so there is no need to euthanize with paramyxo--just strict quarantine of any animal with RI or neuro signs, and supportive care.

There are also less common nasty bugs like rhabdovirus and reoviruses that can cause these symptoms and deaths.

Yes, the little burn could have had neuro signs due to malnutrition, etc...but given the current situation, it seems unlikely.

Some of the deadly neuro viruses are airborne. Others can be transmitted through contact and transfer, like the common cold. Some, like IBD, are believed to be spread by mites.

Basically, if you can identify it as paramyxovirus, the snakes may stand a chance. If it's IBD or one of the others, well, any snake that shows symptoms should be euthanized immediately.
They'll all have to be quarantined from contact with any other snakes for at least a year, regardless of which it is. Including animals that show no symptoms. They shouldn't be adopted out to anyhow who has animals already. Paramyxo can take up to a year to incubate, and the incubation times for the others aren't well known.

This is a very sad thing to hear. Understanding you have the best intentions of fostering these animals, sometimes we come across a sick animal. I am surprised that none noticed this poor animal`s misfortune before you took it home. Snakes have a very slow metabolism, therefore, taking a long time to show that degree of sickness.:( I am very sorry of what you had to go through by freezing this snake to put him down...not to sound mean or hurtful, but be for you take another animal in, maybe you should make sure that you have the $ put aside just in case. this way the euthanizing of another unfortunate animal won`t be so horrible. Maybe you could make a deal with these people that if you come across another sick animal, and you have to make that decision again, that they would do it properly.
I see you have taken a lot of grief for posting this, and I`m sure that you only had the best intentions and I applaud you for trying to help.
Keep your chin up, but please try to be more prepared for this the next time.
Sincerely, 5snakes

Never bring home sick animals... If this snake was at a shelter already, WHY DID YOU BRING IT HOME? I know you said to feed it but it could have been fed their instead of your home. Changing the enviroment was surely not going to get the snake eating for you.

Now I would take all the animals that were in the same room and have them checked by a VET. If you bring disease into your home you will pay for it in the long run.

Quarantine starts all over for every animal in the room. The is no room for excuses in saying that one animal was not as close as another. The only thing you can do is look at it in a perspective that if it is a virus/disease you brought home you gave it to all of your animals. They didnt deserve this treatment.

I would purchase a few jugs of 91% isopropyl alcohol and start spraying everything till it drips. After everything is sprayed take the enviroment this snake was in and bag it 2-3 times and walk it straight to the curb. Once all of this has been done I would start on every other animal you had housed within 25' ft of this animal and assume they are just as bad now. I am sorry to bust your bubble but you may have done more harm than good. As far as the snakes you already had before the burm. Surgical grade only.

I am not busting your balls on this matter but please leave the snakes at the shelter. I have seen to many cases where people infect their whole collection with one rescue they had to have because they felt bad. I have also seen to many rescues and they dont practice safety and sterilizing when it comes to the animals in their facilities...

J

I think that this coolioTiffany was trying to help and rescue animals in need. She just needed to quarantine this animal before putting in with her other snakes. I believe she was trying to do a good thing and that not enough people do what I think she is trying to do. Come on guys, don`t you feel bad for her situation? I do. Like I said, I applaud her efforts, but try to remember to QUARANTINE the animal you bring home, first. If more people did what she is trying to do, there would be no need for snakes in shelters. As that also maddens me, I praise the people that try to help bring them back to health so they are adoptable again. This takes me into a whole other conversation about these big franchise stores selling animals to people WITH NO INFORMATION. this is why we have snakes in shelters in the first place.